Why is that ?I do not use the rule as there are to my mind very common instances of troop formations being pushed to the extremes by commanders and ordered to attack when clearly in no shape to do so. The entire 6th Army around Stalingrad would have been a good example or on a smaller scale the badly dispersed and supplied 1st Airborne trying to seize Arnehem Bridge. Neither of these formations could have done what they did using the traffic light protocol.
FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Re Arnhem.....this is from an account of day 3 of the battle....long after the Division had been fractured and was largely out of supply...
At 3:00 a.m., the commanders of the 2nd battalion and the 1st and 11th parachute battalions met to plan their attack. At 4:30 a.m., before dawn,[118] the 1st Parachute Brigade began its attack towards Arnhem Bridge, with the 1st Battalion leading supported by remnants of the 3rd Battalion, with the 2nd South Staffordshires on the 1st Battalion's left flank and the 11th Battalion following. As soon as it became light the 1st Battalion was spotted and halted by fire from the main German defensive line. Trapped in open ground and under heavy fire from three sides, the 1st Battalion disintegrated and what remained of the 3rd Battalion fell back. The 2nd South Staffordshires were similarly cut off and, save for about 150 men, overcome by midday.[119] The 11th Battalion, (which had stayed out of much of the fighting) was then overwhelmed in exposed positions while attempting to capture high ground to the north. With no hope of breaking through, the 500 remaining men of these four battalions withdrew westwards in the direction of the main force, 5 km (3.1 mi) away in Oosterbeek.[120]
Such attacks would be impossible using the traffic light system as the forces would have been red or amber.
At 3:00 a.m., the commanders of the 2nd battalion and the 1st and 11th parachute battalions met to plan their attack. At 4:30 a.m., before dawn,[118] the 1st Parachute Brigade began its attack towards Arnhem Bridge, with the 1st Battalion leading supported by remnants of the 3rd Battalion, with the 2nd South Staffordshires on the 1st Battalion's left flank and the 11th Battalion following. As soon as it became light the 1st Battalion was spotted and halted by fire from the main German defensive line. Trapped in open ground and under heavy fire from three sides, the 1st Battalion disintegrated and what remained of the 3rd Battalion fell back. The 2nd South Staffordshires were similarly cut off and, save for about 150 men, overcome by midday.[119] The 11th Battalion, (which had stayed out of much of the fighting) was then overwhelmed in exposed positions while attempting to capture high ground to the north. With no hope of breaking through, the 500 remaining men of these four battalions withdrew westwards in the direction of the main force, 5 km (3.1 mi) away in Oosterbeek.[120]
Such attacks would be impossible using the traffic light system as the forces would have been red or amber.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
This is the Narva area right now and Ian is blasting through my lines along the coast and soon will be in my backfield. I've railed the 2nd Panzer Division up there to act as a reserve and it looks like it needs to be committed already. I'm not sure I can contain this incursion because of all the weak spots that are appearing in my lines up there. I'm running out of reserves....there's only two Panzer Divisions left and I'm saving them for a crisis. The Soviet Winter Offensive is almost over and I can start attacking again. I really like this game a lot.
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 60....
The Axis rush reinforcements to the partial breakthrough by Soviet forces at Mauritopol and Soviet tanks find themselves confronted with a veritable smorgasbord of Hungarians,Romanians and German troops that manage to stop further progress though the German Infantry holding Mauritopol town on the western bank is severely degraded by repeated attacks.
In Finland the strategy the Soviets have pursued since the beginning of the war of knocking Finland out of the conflict early is bearing fruit as now no less than 7 Finnish Divisions are cut off out of supply in addition to two more Divisions in the extreme north.
Another Coastal Fort and port is overrun North of the Finnish forces facing Soviet troops on the Leningrad defence lines and NKVD forces are now less than 130 km from Helsinki....
The drive out of Odessa has to be curtailed as attempts to ship fresh troops into the embattled city are foiled by intense naval interdiction by JU87's.
Further marginal progress is made on the Baltic coast but it is evident that significant German armour has arrived in the area so a halt may need to be called for a rest.
The Axis rush reinforcements to the partial breakthrough by Soviet forces at Mauritopol and Soviet tanks find themselves confronted with a veritable smorgasbord of Hungarians,Romanians and German troops that manage to stop further progress though the German Infantry holding Mauritopol town on the western bank is severely degraded by repeated attacks.
In Finland the strategy the Soviets have pursued since the beginning of the war of knocking Finland out of the conflict early is bearing fruit as now no less than 7 Finnish Divisions are cut off out of supply in addition to two more Divisions in the extreme north.
Another Coastal Fort and port is overrun North of the Finnish forces facing Soviet troops on the Leningrad defence lines and NKVD forces are now less than 130 km from Helsinki....
The drive out of Odessa has to be curtailed as attempts to ship fresh troops into the embattled city are foiled by intense naval interdiction by JU87's.
Further marginal progress is made on the Baltic coast but it is evident that significant German armour has arrived in the area so a halt may need to be called for a rest.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Ian has had some success in the south in that he broke a hole in my front lines and there's not an abundance of Axis troops nearby. He chose a spot where I'm weak and I'm going to have to move some troops quickly to plug it or we'll have Soviet troops rolling up my lines. This game is rapidly becomming more interesting. I didn't watch the playback this time so I'm not sure if Ian is planning on following up on his success or not. To descern that I would have to see Ian railing troops southward. I don't see a lot of units embarked on the rails yet so maybe this is just a short range probe. I have flown a lot of Stuka's down here to bombard the Soviet stacks and Ian tells me all the sea interdiction prevented him from sailing some reinforcements into Odessa. I'm not at all sure I can plug this hole. I may have to start pulling all the troops in this area to the other side of the river.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Here is the Kiev area now. Please notice that my defenders are a single unit in the hex and the Soviets are mostly in stacks. If Ian decides to press real hard there's the possibility that he could rip a hole in this section of the front lines that I couldn't fix and I'd have a crisis on my hands. And for reserves I have only two Panzer Divisions parked on the rails. I've only just started moving units and there's not much moving needed in this area. Most of my units have been resting so long they are leaf green and are as strong as they are going to get but for some reason the Soviet shock is still 115 and I'd rather not attempt any attacks. The configuration this group of Axis units are in is relatively stable and has been for the last 20 turns or so. I've been bombarding the front rank of Soviet units and get some good hits from time to time. I'm bombarding his arty with my aircraft and haven't gotten any hits in a while. I've brought some RR arty down here and they are aimed at the Soviet arty also. I'm wondering how hard it would be to drop the bridge at Kiev.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Here's the northern front lines near Leningrad and you can see how Ian has blasted a hole that is poised to become a yuge ( larger than huge ) gap. I may have to steal the reserves from another area to contain this one. I'm going to try to pull the troops backward and start a horizontal front line a bit further south blowing bridges as I go. I've got a lot of INT turned on to thwart the movement of Soviet units around my units and start heading south. This is where I start to move everybody south to the river to a front line anchored on Riga extending toward Davagpils. This is going to be interesting because I'm not really good at falling back. I keep forgetting to use the recon units to allow the infantry to pull away without a parting attack.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Here's what's going on near Riga now. All the rail repair is done except for the rail that partisans break so I'm using some of the RR engineers to get the entrenchment started. They have been dug in for two turns now and they have done 4% of the job so far. The regular engineers entrench faster. I'm moving all the gutted divisions down here to extend the line further to the east. I've only gotten started on this project and so far it's only a light screen and won't hold anything back if attacked. I need to buy some time somehow to get enough units in line to start getting serious about building a proper MLR. I'm thinking of moving some aircraft up here and trimming their range to dedicate them to this project.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Have I showed you what's going on in the Crimea now? Ian has punched a hole and there's absolutely no reserve and that means that all these troops are going to have to displace. I'm thinking of pulling back to the exits leading west toward Odessa. I predict that about half of these units are going to get killed before they get to the river. Those units guarding the entrances to Sevastopol are going to have to pull out too. I have a minor crisis on my hands here.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
New moves from Ian and here's the front lines and I've depicted the intended path of retreat for shortening the lines. I'm outnumbered and need to collapse the bulges and move back to better supply areas. The Soviet Winter Offensive is over and Soviet shock is 100 and I'm going to start counterattacking in those areas that need it. I've still got two Panzer divisions in reserve and I'm still debating with myself whether and where to deploy them. Partisans are still a problem. There's not enough time left in the year to go on the offensive again. Not to mention that the Soviets are fully awake and on the move and certain sections of the front are dynamic still. This war may turn out to be rather short...all I need is a huge Soviet breakthrough somewhere. Ian keeps making holes and so far I've been able to plug them. I've been toying with a plan to pull the Axis minors to the edge of the mountains to the west and make a vertical front line along the river to the west of Odessa. I've already decided to evacuate the Crimea and Odessa is still between a rock and a hard place. I've started rounding up all the recon units down south to get ready to start pulling the units back. I don't have enough units down south to retreat behind a formed front line and all the units guarding the Sevastopol entrances will have to be the last to move north and out of the Crimea.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
That big bulge look serious Larry. Any chance of sacrificing some divisions to make a run for it? Or is it not realy possible to effectively disengage?
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Disengaging from Soviet units is problomatic and I'm afraid that pulling all those troops back WOULD cause a lot of losses. But it's necessary and I've already started it pulling back slowly trying to maintain a front line at the same time. So far so good.ORIGINAL: gliz2
That big bulge look serious Larry. Any chance of sacrificing some divisions to make a run for it? Or is it not realy possible to effectively disengage?
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 61....
Larry posted the map before I could do my little update as he is too efficient (I thought he would be asleep when I posted my turn...should have known better😂)
The last turn of the Soviet offensive saw the advance in northern Estonia come to an abrupt halt as not one but two Panzer Divns made an unwelcome appearance...the 15th and the 24th I think...so progress had to be made elsewhere.
Another Coastal Fort was overrun in southern Finland on the approach to Helsinki and in the South after heavy fighting Melitopol was finally captured and importantly the bridge was taken intact.Units then pushed into the Hungarian security units and these were also hit hard.
The overall strategic situation is fascinating....although the shock reduction will prevent too many effective attacks now, running up to the ceasefire around turn 89 I am hoping to knock Finland out of the war which will free up considerable Soviet forces. The ideal scenario if somewhat ambitious would be a grand envelopment of German lines from the far North and far So I given the big salients in the German lines in the Centre but Larry looks to be considering a pullback so we will see......
Larry posted the map before I could do my little update as he is too efficient (I thought he would be asleep when I posted my turn...should have known better😂)
The last turn of the Soviet offensive saw the advance in northern Estonia come to an abrupt halt as not one but two Panzer Divns made an unwelcome appearance...the 15th and the 24th I think...so progress had to be made elsewhere.
Another Coastal Fort was overrun in southern Finland on the approach to Helsinki and in the South after heavy fighting Melitopol was finally captured and importantly the bridge was taken intact.Units then pushed into the Hungarian security units and these were also hit hard.
The overall strategic situation is fascinating....although the shock reduction will prevent too many effective attacks now, running up to the ceasefire around turn 89 I am hoping to knock Finland out of the war which will free up considerable Soviet forces. The ideal scenario if somewhat ambitious would be a grand envelopment of German lines from the far North and far So I given the big salients in the German lines in the Centre but Larry looks to be considering a pullback so we will see......
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
I've been fortunate in that the Soviet invasion seems to be contained and all those plans to fall back may not have to be done. I may be able to hold on with what I've got or maybe push the Soviets back across the lake and reclaim Narva. I think I'll hold off on the pulling back and see what develops here a little bit.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Soviet Turn 62
The Soviet shock levels now being back to 100 and therefore less than the Germans, Larry hits the Soviet lines hard in the Bulge area west of Lake Peipus. The Soviet lines hold thanks to reserve armour but damage was done as several Panzer Divisions were employed in the assault.
The Soviet turn is spent trying to repair the damage in this area.
In Finland a different story with Soviet advance elements approaching Helsinki from both the north and east and only 60Km from the capital and with almost all Finnish forces now pocketed in other parts of the country.
North of Leningrad an SS Police Regiment is destroyed as the Soviet lines start to push north through the Finnish and German defences but there is no attempt to launch full assaults as it is hoped the fall of Helsinki will persuade the Finns to lay down their arms.
In the south the final German regiment on the lower Dnepr adjacent to Melitopol is destroyed but an attempt to force the river line just to the north is repelled by German artillery supporting the front line.
In the air the Germans resume their interdiction efforts but these are combatted by the Soviet fighters and by turn end almost 600 Axis planes have been downed for the loss of about 170 Soviets.
Larry asked about Soviet losses to date in his in game message......
To give an idea:
In Heavy Rifle Squads...... Lost = 3631............On Hand = 19953
In Early T34 Tanks......... Lost = 751............On hand = 2136
In IL-4's.................. Lost = 334............On hand = 899 (these bombers have particularly suffered from German fighters)
Overall it seems these are not too bad for the Soviets though artillery losses are also pretty high.
The Soviet shock levels now being back to 100 and therefore less than the Germans, Larry hits the Soviet lines hard in the Bulge area west of Lake Peipus. The Soviet lines hold thanks to reserve armour but damage was done as several Panzer Divisions were employed in the assault.
The Soviet turn is spent trying to repair the damage in this area.
In Finland a different story with Soviet advance elements approaching Helsinki from both the north and east and only 60Km from the capital and with almost all Finnish forces now pocketed in other parts of the country.
North of Leningrad an SS Police Regiment is destroyed as the Soviet lines start to push north through the Finnish and German defences but there is no attempt to launch full assaults as it is hoped the fall of Helsinki will persuade the Finns to lay down their arms.
In the south the final German regiment on the lower Dnepr adjacent to Melitopol is destroyed but an attempt to force the river line just to the north is repelled by German artillery supporting the front line.
In the air the Germans resume their interdiction efforts but these are combatted by the Soviet fighters and by turn end almost 600 Axis planes have been downed for the loss of about 170 Soviets.
Larry asked about Soviet losses to date in his in game message......
To give an idea:
In Heavy Rifle Squads...... Lost = 3631............On Hand = 19953
In Early T34 Tanks......... Lost = 751............On hand = 2136
In IL-4's.................. Lost = 334............On hand = 899 (these bombers have particularly suffered from German fighters)
Overall it seems these are not too bad for the Soviets though artillery losses are also pretty high.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
I haven't been attacking until last turn so my Army is almost at peak strength and the number of HRS's is over 41K. That's a good thing. Ian's defense is so strong that my attacks aren't making a dent and I'm just losing people and beating my head against the wall. I need to find a weak spot and there aren't many. Also, several of my divisions are below half of their original strength and need to be railed to Berlin to refit. If not Berlin then maybe someplace along the coast, like Konigsburg. With an HQ unit to accellerate the refit rate. This image is the first from a new set of moves from Ian and I haven't started moving units yet. The front lines haven't moved since last turn and actually are fairly stable. I seem to have contained the Soviet push. But there are so many weak spots in the lines that Ian could break a lot of holes that I'll need to plug.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
A considerable number of my aircraft, mostly fighters, are in reorg and I'm guessing that that is a clue as to how hot the air war is now. The air losses meter shows zeros because I just now opened the moves and not a lot has happened yet. Ian hasn't been doing a lot of bombing of bridges so I don't have to strip off some engineers, regular and RR, to fix the backfield but I'm thinking of dropping some of the Soviet bridges to slow down the Soviet push somewhat. It will have to be bridges that will fit under my fighter umbrella because I don't need a lot of losses. I'm wondering what Ian is going to do next.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
This is the situation on the northern end of the front lines and you can see that I seem to have contained Ian's forces but it's an illusion because of all the weak spots.
I got a PM from DesertedFox just now asking about home rules for FITE v.5.0 and I've got some ideas for some of those rules.
(1) I suggested that there be no Axis INT missions after T10. There's two reasons for this rule. It might help prevent the Soviet units from just running away from the fight early on. And after T10 or so INT missions only annoy the opposing player and don't usually accomplish much else. Also, I never got much utility out of dropping bridges. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I've learned the value of dropping the bridges near the Soviet front lines however, to help isolate the battlefield.
(2) D21 has a nostacking rule for the Axis minors. No stacking of the units. Not even same-nation units. This will help illustrate the uselessness of the Axis minors I suppose.
(3) Here's one for grins: All aircraft must land at the airfield they departed from on combat missions. Long range ferry excepted.
(4) Overextended units must move into supplied hexes except for those cases where you are trying to kill your units off. Why don't you just disband them instead?
(5) Formations must strive to stay together as formations. Independent units excepted.
(6) The Axis player must garrison Minsk and Riga with a security unit after capture. Partisans can really wreck your day unless security forces are distributed throughout your captured territory.
(7) Artillery duels are always won by Soviet artillery. This is a rough rule of thumb.
(8) If your opponent isn't having fun any longer, switch sides or do something "accidently" to change the course of the game. You need not make it known that you've done this.
(9) Communicate with your opponent frequently to compare perspectives, etc.
(10) Don't play when it's not fun. That will just burn you out. Take some time off when you need to. This is going to be a long war.
I got a PM from DesertedFox just now asking about home rules for FITE v.5.0 and I've got some ideas for some of those rules.
(1) I suggested that there be no Axis INT missions after T10. There's two reasons for this rule. It might help prevent the Soviet units from just running away from the fight early on. And after T10 or so INT missions only annoy the opposing player and don't usually accomplish much else. Also, I never got much utility out of dropping bridges. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I've learned the value of dropping the bridges near the Soviet front lines however, to help isolate the battlefield.
(2) D21 has a nostacking rule for the Axis minors. No stacking of the units. Not even same-nation units. This will help illustrate the uselessness of the Axis minors I suppose.
(3) Here's one for grins: All aircraft must land at the airfield they departed from on combat missions. Long range ferry excepted.
(4) Overextended units must move into supplied hexes except for those cases where you are trying to kill your units off. Why don't you just disband them instead?
(5) Formations must strive to stay together as formations. Independent units excepted.
(6) The Axis player must garrison Minsk and Riga with a security unit after capture. Partisans can really wreck your day unless security forces are distributed throughout your captured territory.
(7) Artillery duels are always won by Soviet artillery. This is a rough rule of thumb.
(8) If your opponent isn't having fun any longer, switch sides or do something "accidently" to change the course of the game. You need not make it known that you've done this.
(9) Communicate with your opponent frequently to compare perspectives, etc.
(10) Don't play when it's not fun. That will just burn you out. Take some time off when you need to. This is going to be a long war.
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His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
Can't you just try to bag those Russians on the Western side of Peipus as soon as the lake melts? That looks like an idea for a Spring offensive.
MrLongleg
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larryfulkerson
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before
I think that a really fine idea. I'll try to keep that in mind because I think I can do it.ORIGINAL: MrLongleg
Can't you just try to bag those Russians on the Western side of Peipus as soon as the lake melts? That looks like an idea for a Spring offensive.
His is going to be the most world-wide anticipated obituary in the history of the world, that I will tell you. Thank you for your attention to this matter.