Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar




Actually not true with Attack Bombers. So, I have suspicion something like that might be in code that might be bug in torpedo bomber bombing code.

Since getting those hits from 15k altitude would be ridiculous.

If I remember correctly, the Fubuki was sunk by a B-17. Those pilots had not trained on naval bombing whereas I do believe that the Naval Kates would have trained dropping bombs. Somehow, somewhere, I remember reading about those Kates flying level, dropping bombs, damaging some ships and even sinking at least one of them!

Fubuki was sunk by CA San Francisco at Cape Esperance, but there was a DD sunk by a B-17. I think it was stopped to pick up survivors from a troop convoy that was being mauled. Easier target for the B-17s.

The Kates that dropped AP bombs at Pearl Harbour would have trained in that, and they had to drop from fairly high altitude to get the bomb up to speed before impact. But again, their targets were stationary.

You are correct, it was the Mutsuki class leader. An improved Kamikaze class with Long Lance torpedoes . . .

[Yaab]

My favourite thread

Scen001v5, Allies

A mixed xAP/AP Allied TF escaping Luzon towards Midway is attacked by five Mabels with bombs.
My three ships have a total of 13 DP guns, plus each ship has several 20mm guns for individual defence
This AA setup is negated by the almighty code. 30% bombing accuracy by IJN pilots, while their IJA counterparts have problems hitting undefended Wuchow using same techinque of level bombing.

At least we can now enjoy the festive atmosphere of New Orleans and Jamaica.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 11, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Agrihan at 111,83

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5M1 Mabel x 5

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
xAP Bloemfontein, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP W.A. Holbrook, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B5M1 Mabel bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

[Yaab]

Bump

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy



No. Alfred specified that dropping down is part of a torpedo attack profile, not a bombing profile. It isn't the plane type that determines this, it's the mission profile.

Actually not true with Attack Bombers. So, I have suspicion something like that might be in code that might be bug in torpedo bomber bombing code.

Since getting those hits from 15k altitude would be ridiculous.

Not sure what you mean about "Not true with attack bombers"? If you set them to naval attack and they carry bombs they drop down to attack because the default mission is Low Naval, which I suppose is based on aircraft type. That overrides the altitude setting.

With the TBs, the weapon carried sets the mission and thus the profile. If it were possible to drop a torpedo from altitude I am sure the Kates would do that.

"Not true" means "dropping down is not by plane type" is not true considering that attack bombers do that by plane type.

I think considering torpedo bombers using bombs there is something in code that makes them drop down that is not shown in combat reports.

[Yaab]

And now for something totally different.

21 IJA Sallys attack CL Mauritius from 11,000 feet. CAP got to the bombers after they had attacked the CL.

The pilots were probably 50 exp, 30 NavBombing skill. All bombers attacked CL Mauritius in the combat animation.

84 bombs dropped, not a single hit achieved. This is WAD - level bombers with low NavSkill will not, on average, hit a ship.
Only TBs with bombs behave differently.


Morning Air attack on TF, near Singapore at 50,84

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 23

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IF x 4
Buffalo I x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 3 destroyed, 3 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CL Mauritius

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 11000 feet
Naval Attack: 4 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

[Yaab]

"I told you not to form a DD TF! How can you survive a 33% hit rate from Mabels?
Oh, you are maneuvering at max speed. And the sky is overcast. I guess everything is hunky-dory then"

- - - -

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5M1 Mabel x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
DD Thanet, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5M1 Mabel bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

[BBfanboy]

Uh - each Mable carries 2 X 250 kg bombs so the hit rate is really 16.5%. Those pilots are probably much better than 30 skill in NavB.
And 77,61 is the HK hex, so maybe those DDs were stationary?

[Chris21wen]

Uh - each Mable carries 2 X 250 kg bombs so the hit rate is really 16.5%. Those pilots are probably much better than 30 skill in NavB.
And 77,61 is the HK hex, so maybe those DDs were stationary?

It might be these guys.

Capture.JPG (43.61 KiB) Viewed 740 times

[Yaab]

Uh - each Mable carries 2 X 250 kg bombs so the hit rate is really 16.5%. Those pilots are probably much better than 30 skill in NavB.
And 77,61 is the HK hex, so maybe those DDs were stationary?

Three Mabels, each with two bombs

Total: 6 bombs

6 bombs = 100%
3 bombs = 50%
2 bombs = 33%

[BBfanboy]

Uh - each Mable carries 2 X 250 kg bombs so the hit rate is really 16.5%. Those pilots are probably much better than 30 skill in NavB.
And 77,61 is the HK hex, so maybe those DDs were stationary?

Three Mabels, each with two bombs

Total: 6 bombs

6 bombs = 100%
3 bombs = 50%
2 bombs = 33%

Oops - somewhere in there I doubled the number of planes or bombs!

Pinnocchio smiley.jpg (1.79 KiB) Viewed 684 times

Rocket Fail.gif (721.89 KiB) Viewed 684 times

Right you are Yaab!

salute.gif (291 Bytes) Viewed 684 times

[Yaab]

Well, I guess I could live with 5-9% accuracy from bombing TBs now and then. However, those 20-33% bombing runs are frustrating, especially against CL Boise, CA Houston and Allied DDs.

[Yaab]

War. War never changes, only odds go up. 33% hit rate on a moving DD.

Goodbye DD Thanet we hardly knew you. RIP 9 December 1941



Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Hong Kong at 77,61

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5M1 Mabel x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
B5M1 Mabel: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Thanet, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5M1 Mabel bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

[Yaab]

...and now for something totally different.

First time ever, non-TB bombers sink a ship with bombs using level-bombing technique. The attack was so good that I suspected the same bombing routine that gives TBs flying with bombs their "special" edge. The TF consisted of three AMs and one TK. The TF had eight heavy DP guns, two per ship.


Morning Air attack on TF, near Sibuyan at 80,82

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AM Lark, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
TK Mindanao, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TK Mindanao

[PaxMondo]

Maybe, but TK's are not known for their nimbleness. The AM hit though needed a fair amount of luck given how small the ship is....