THREAD War: Mike & Mike - Mike Solli (J) vs. USS America (A)

[Bif1961]

I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.

[rustysi]

I've been giving this some thought over the last few days and it seems to me that its best to consider which of the desired results is best for the player. Now of course that depends on the individual, and his/her play style.

As for myself if I were the Allies, I would want the early game to be based on delay, delay, delay. Just what the Japanese want later. It seems to me the best way to do this is as Bif1961 says and defend the mountain redoubt. Thinking about it further, I wonder how much a few points of infrastructure damage at Soerbaja will benefit the Allies in the long run. It seems to me that tying down more Japanese forces for a longer time on Java during the 'expansion' period would be more beneficial. JMHO. YMMV.[:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.

To preclude the unfortunate game effect of refineries producing supplies in places like Palembang, I've HR'ed the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. If my opponent agrees not to stack this hex unrealistically with a freakin' Army (supplied, of course by the refineries), I agree not to land on Java on turn 1 with a division and a half-which can be done with the first turn 'magic move'. Usually they find the exchange of 'unacceptable for unacceptable' to be a good one.

Most Japanese efforts to liberate Java are somewhere between March and May 1942. I would venture that most involve more than two division equivalents at that time. If you wanted to sequester the ABDA fighting forces and tie up a couple of divisions in the hills for a couple months while I took out the remainder of the strategic points of interest on Java, I'd be OK with that. Perhaps this has worked for you in a couple of other games (all PBEM?), but it wouldn't put me off at all. YMMV of course.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I have tried fortress Soerbaja, which still falls too quickly, damages the port and base. Never tried fortress Batavia but have done fortress Palmenbang. That worked well but trashed the British 18th Divisions but destroyed a good amount of oil and refineries. Of those three options the mountain redoubt works the best and denies the Japanese one of their valuable tools, no naval bombardments in the mountains. I could make it even better by bringing in non-Java based Dutch LCUs to the mountain as well and ramping up the AV to 1,200-1,300.

To preclude the unfortunate game effect of refineries producing supplies in places like Palembang, I've HR'ed the "Fortress Palembang" gambit. If my opponent agrees not to stack this hex unrealistically with a freakin' Army (supplied, of course by the refineries), I agree not to land on Java on turn 1 with a division and a half-which can be done with the first turn 'magic move'. Usually they find the exchange of 'unacceptable for unacceptable' to be a good one.

Most Japanese efforts to liberate Java are somewhere between March and May 1942. I would venture that most involve more than two division equivalents at that time. If you wanted to sequester the ABDA fighting forces and tie up a couple of divisions in the hills for a couple months while I took out the remainder of the strategic points of interest on Java, I'd be OK with that. Perhaps this has worked for you in a couple of other games (all PBEM?), but it wouldn't put me off at all. YMMV of course.

And then there is the alternative strategy.

[USSAmerica]

Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!

Java gets everything from Hong Kong and Luzon that I can spare-as soon as it's practical to get 'em there after their prior engagements have been dealt with. That's something like 5 IDs, plus artillery, armor, HQ and engineers. Eventually.

I would probably repurpose the Hong Kong contingent to seek a lodgement ASAP. Kalidjati or somewhere on the Java sea coast is a good place to start to bisect the island.

I don't understand the question about 'typical garrison'. For whom? Where?

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Andre, and anyone else with experience from the Dark Side, what is a typical force strength used to conquer Java and what would be a typical garrison strength?

If the delay tactic of holing up in the mountain hex could require a larger than normal force to capture, or if they could delay and tie up more forces than the typical garrison, then I'd probably consider it worthwhile over the industry damage I am hoping to cause in this game at Soerabaja.

Delay is absolutely the name of the game at this point in the war, but if I'm only delaying forces that will remain on Java anyway, it's not much added value in my estimation. Very good discussion, gents!

Java gets everything from Hong Kong and Luzon that I can spare-as soon as it's practical to get 'em there after their prior engagements have been dealt with. That's something like 5 IDs, plus artillery, armor, HQ and engineers. Eventually.

I would probably repurpose the Hong Kong contingent to seek a lodgement ASAP. Kalidjati or somewhere on the Java sea coast is a good place to start to bisect the island.

I don't understand the question about 'typical garrison'. For whom? Where?

Sorry, by typical garrison I was wondering what forces you leave to defend Java after conquering it? In context, if the "defend in the mountains" route is chosen and ties up an estimated 2 divisions, is that more than you would normally leave on Java? Less? How much of an impact would tying up 2 divisions for several more months on Java have on your normal operations and timetable for expansion?

[jdsrae]

I don’t get fancy with manoeuvre or trying to use economy of force on Java.
Others might by diverting a Division or two to PNG or similar before taking Java.
Once Singapore and Luzon fall, the main effort for Japan really should be clearing the DEI to start the oil and fuel convoys.

For Java garrison duty, that depends on how far IJ Mike is going to push his perimeter.
I might leave a Division or two on Java to rest and recover but I would push fhe rest forward.
By April 42, Japan needs to fight hard to keep the momentum as losing the amphib bonus will slow things down.
I’d be searching for information on where you’ve sent 18 Brit Div and the Aussie Divs to see where to hit next, but also start being wary of a counter attack based around them.

I’d probably move the Java conquerors east to clear the rest of the DEI and PNG, but there are only scraps of oil and resources left after Java so a few extra weeks or even months delay in capturing them has no effect on the economy.

Unless you plan on doing something radical like sending 18 UK and the Aussie divs to the DEI to help them, I don’t think it matters for the Japanese economy where the Dutch make their last stand.or even if they defend a mountain for a few months.

What you do with any extra delay you can create is what matters. Will an extra month or two change any of your plans?
Are you just using the time to build up bases in India and Aus or are you planning to launch a counter attack somewhere?

[Bif1961]

CB all my games have been PBEMs. Like I said earlier I have tried several types of defense for DEI and found the mountain redoubt the best use of Dutch forces, which will all go away anyways at some point. However, it takes more than 2 divisions more than 3 months, once you land in java to hope to dislodge and defeat them. As mentioned before other defensive positions mention can be bombarded by sea so that is one less tool in the Japanese box to defeat 1,000+ AV in the mountain defense. Delay is the name of the game.

having discussed this I would prefer a more historic,/realistic approach where if u take Palmenbang, Batavia and Soerabaja the Dutch surrender all and all units surrender and all Dutch bases auto-flip Japanese. Having to chase down every last Dutch unit and flip all the small bases across DEI is time consuming adventure the real Japanese never had to deal with. I would suggest the same for the Philippines as well.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica
Sorry, by typical garrison I was wondering what forces you leave to defend Java after conquering it? In context, if the "defend in the mountains" route is chosen and ties up an estimated 2 divisions, is that more than you would normally leave on Java? Less? How much of an impact would tying up 2 divisions for several more months on Java have on your normal operations and timetable for expansion?

OK. I understand the question, but not sure what timeline you're looking at.

During the expansion period (first 6-10 months for the Japanese), I would minimize the garrison on Java to be that which is the minimum necessary to garrison the island's cities. It's not much, maybe 120 AV by my recollection. I'd also have engineers and naval support units working on Batavia and Soerbaja. HQn/HQa +/-. But most of my combat-capable forces would be headed for alternative destinations.

During the consolidation / equilibrium / defense periods (after late 1942), Java will see considerably more units than the minimum garrison requirements. It is a defensive bastion and must be held.

If I can take Java (minus the mountain redoubt)-particularly Batavia and Soerbaja on the cheap and the fly with two Divisions, then I can hold in place for further reinforcements from Luzon and Singapore. Figure 4-5 Divisions (+ support) available mid-February after Singapore falls and another 4-5 Divisions April-May when Luzon is done.

So, how long would a pesky Java defense set back my timetable? It depends. As I think I've stated clearly, I don't believe that the mountain redoubt described would delay my timetable. If Batavia and Soerbaja are 'open cities' or de facto open cities with minimal ABDA defensive abilities, I can wait a long time before I need to reduce the mountain redoubt. It simply doesn't matter.

In my current PBEM game vs. Acepylut (Sc.2), he holed up in Batavia. A smart move. I was reluctant to naval bombard Batavia for fear of damaging the LI, HI and refinery there. He held up in supply until late April 1942. I had to rotate 5 divisions through Batavia to reduce it. I was fortunate that there was minimal facilities damage after capture. But he *had* to go. I wasn't going to leave him alone atop a supply production center like that-he would have still been there in 1943 if I had. Very different impetus than the need to attack a mountain redoubt outside of Batavia / Soerbaja / Trincomalee.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

I don’t get fancy with manoeuvre or trying to use economy of force on Java.
Others might by diverting a Division or two to PNG or similar before taking Java.
Once Singapore and Luzon fall, the main effort for Japan really should be clearing the DEI to start the oil and fuel convoys.

For Java garrison duty, that depends on how far IJ Mike is going to push his perimeter.
I might leave a Division or two on Java to rest and recover but I would push fhe rest forward.
By April 42, Japan needs to fight hard to keep the momentum as losing the amphib bonus will slow things down.
I’d be searching for information on where you’ve sent 18 Brit Div and the Aussie Divs to see where to hit next, but also start being wary of a counter attack based around them.

I’d probably move the Java conquerors east to clear the rest of the DEI and PNG, but there are only scraps of oil and resources left after Java so a few extra weeks or even months delay in capturing them has no effect on the economy.

Unless you plan on doing something radical like sending 18 UK and the Aussie divs to the DEI to help them, I don’t think it matters for the Japanese economy where the Dutch make their last stand.or even if they defend a mountain for a few months.

What you do with any extra delay you can create is what matters. Will an extra month or two change any of your plans?
Are you just using the time to build up bases in India and Aus or are you planning to launch a counter attack somewhere?

A good post. I agree with most of the points above. With the caveat that I don't 'backfill' the rest of the DEI / PIs from Java. By April-May, the rest of the DEI / Philippines should be either in hand or imminent. The Java conquerors are staged from there to the next destination, wherever that may be (India, Australia, Ceylon, etc.).

Regardless of where you elect to make a stand, I do recommend consolidation of forces on Java. "Bitsa" units-a regiment here, a battalion there-are prone to getting overrun piecemeal. Stack ABDA in a readily defensible location (Batavia can work) and extract a pound of flesh. Sell them dearly en masse and they'll hold longer.

[USSAmerica]

Again, thanks for the great discussion points, gentlemen! My big defensive stand on Java is set up for Soerabaja this game. Maybe I'll try one of the other options discussed next time around.

[Bif1961]

Unlike the real war, when you only go around once, here you get to reset next time and try something different. A lesson learned is only truly learned if you apply it, otherwise it is simply a lesson observed.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Unlike the real war, when you only go around once, here you get to reset next time and try something different. A lesson learned is only truly learned if you apply it, otherwise it is simply a lesson observed.

That's why we keep playing this game, right? To see if we can do better than history and better than last time? Of course, we end up continuously fighting "the last war" instead of preparing for the next war, but I'm happy to leave that to the professionals. [:D]

[USSAmerica]

DEC 22-23, 1941

Not a lot of significant news for this turn. Bad weather limited the air attacks at both Singapore and Manila, resulting in all base damage being repaired at both places. I only just got it all repaired and very little fort construction progress was made. Both Lvl 3 forts are still under 10% progress toward Lvl 4 and will likely not ever get there. That bad weather also grounded all potential Naval Attack missions against the Jap shipping around Singapore.

Subs on both sides used some more torpedoes but the only hit was on another of my DD's near Pearl, Aylwin.

Burma
The first 39k of supply arrived at Rangoon safely and will start unloading next turn as the follow up 12k on AKL's arrives tomorrow. Mikes first ground troops moved into Moulmein, a single unit with another 1 a hex away. I'm going to recon via bombardment tomorrow to see what's there while the screening force for the Rangoon - Mandalay railroad continues to move into position. Rangoon should reach Lvl 3 forts the turn after next, so I'll likely pull most of the base forces out and back to Mandalay for a little more fort building there. Once the rail line is cut the only value holding Rangoon has for me is to deny the industry to Mike a little longer. I'll defend it, but won't lose too many troops there. Most will attempt to stage a fighting retreat back to Mandalay, Myitkyina, and then to India. Base forces can pull out ahead of the invaders. I suspect I won't get another supply convoy into Rangoon after these two, in time to have the supply pulled inland and toward China.

DEI
In the DEI I've bought the Inf unit and base force that start at Ambon Island and I'm pulling them back to Darwin. I'd like to keep them in the fight and make use of the Dutch troop pools for a while. A total of 24 Political Points was worth it to have these around for a while.

I spotted what seems to be a 2 transport Jap TF moving between Ambon and Babo, moving SE toward Dobo or maybe Merauke. In his older game, Mike had a devil of a time with strong forces Ted based at Merauke, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is trying to slip a small invasion force in there early on to snatch it. I have already moved an AVP there and shifted the exposed Dutch Patrol squadron from Sorong to Merauke. I've cobbled together two Yank and one Dutch PG's and sent them on a general intercept course. No stronger surface ships are in this area and none will return, except for escorting arriving convoys, until I have a stronger air presence at Darwin. I'll have some good fighters there soon, but want some anti shipping planes there as well before I put any significant ships there.

[USSAmerica]

One other small addition to the last turn report: "CS Mizuho was incorrectly reported as sunk" so she's off the sunk ships list. [:D] I put two torpedoes into her with an S-boat on the Dec 10-11 turn, so she's at least out of action for a good while.

[rustysi]

I put two torpedoes into her with an S-boat

Yeah, the torps on those 'Pig boats' don't have a lot of punch.

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I put two torpedoes into her with an S-boat

Yeah, the torps on those 'Pig boats' don't have a lot of punch.

Very true about the Mk 10's. When the bigger Mk 14's actually explode it's a significant hit.

[Chickenboy]

Aye. I think the main effect is to cause surprise amongst the ship's crew that a Mk. 14 actually exploded. Hory crap! [X(]

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Aye. I think the main effect is to cause surprise amongst the ship's crew that a Mk. 14 actually exploded. Hory crap! [X(]

[:D]