Balance Thread

[AlvaroSousa]

If memory serves the Axis lost as many aircraft as the Allies in the battle of France.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If memory serves the Axis lost as many aircraft as the Allies in the battle of France.

Thanks God, I did not fly much so far. Thus, I was able to limit my air losses.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: malkarma

Agree. If you want air superiority, build fighters. You can´t to maintain air superiority with air 4 units against 5 or 6 (if the UK built an extra figther).

Back to Excel then. I need to check how to add an air unit of 180 build days without impacting my Panzer groups and before May 1940.

[AlvaroSousa]

Air planes repair at 40% cost and no manpower BTW

[ncc1701e]

Yes thanks, but I need to sacrifice a mech if I want an air unit. Arghh. [:D]

And, sorry, you said you will not touch France. But, having to switch units from the Maginot line to have units at 50% in Belgium. Why not put them directly in Belgium?
This is a boring process to do each game imo.

[AlvaroSousa]

I will take a look at that.

[kennonlightfoot]

The production for the Allies is correct.
The production for the Axis is too low late in the war.

I am not sure the Axis problem is production in 43/44 but the other limiting factors (manpower and logistics). I haven't gotten to that point in my 9.1 version games so I can't be sure if it is still as limiting as is was in earlier versions or not. But in my earlier version games I usually ran out of manpower (and I think logistics) before I ran out of production. I found the German sitting around churning out beach fortifications and AA guns because they didn't have the manpower and logistics points to do anything else. The AA help but the beach fortifications were of limited use since the Germans could produce enough infantry to occupy them. I also ended up sending a lot of German PP to allies since they had manpower and logistics to build. But they aren't good for the long run since their armies disappear as those countries get over run.

[AlvaroSousa]

I mainly have a manpower issue in 1942 but that is realistic. I made some changes to the next beta due today that hopefully fixes some of this stuff. We go in small doses.

[battlevonwar]

I run out of manpower and oil as Axis bigtime in '43 and I think everyone does if you're fighting a lot. You shouldn't have much of any to spare.

[Flaviusx]

Manpower is indeed the real constraining factor for the Germans down the line and why later in the war they end up subsidizing the Axis minors and Italy as a matter of efficiency.

Alvaro mentioned something upthread about infantry not scaling well. I think he is on to something here. And German infantry has a massive 20% experience bonus over everyone else, but even with that infantry just doesn't keep up well with mech in the later years.

This is exactly the opposite of real life, where armor started off strong but struggled later on as infantry AT weapons and such reversed the balance of arms more in favor of the poor bloody infantry as time went on. Combined arms become more rather than less important in time.

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Yes thanks, but I need to sacrifice a mech if I want an air unit. Arghh. [:D]

And, sorry, you said you will not touch France. But, having to switch units from the Maginot line to have units at 50% in Belgium. Why not put them directly in Belgium?
This is a boring process to do each game imo.

+1

[squatter]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Manpower is indeed the real constraining factor for the Germans down the line and why later in the war they end up subsidizing the Axis minors and Italy as a matter of efficiency.

Alvaro mentioned something upthread about infantry not scaling well. I think he is on to something here. And German infantry has a massive 20% experience bonus over everyone else, but even with that infantry just doesn't keep up well with mech in the later years.

This is exactly the opposite of real life, where armor started off strong but struggled later on as infantry AT weapons and such reversed the balance of arms more in favor of the poor bloody infantry as time went on. Combined arms become more rather than less important in time.

Agreed. Plus if anything inf divisions on either side tended to feature more tank destroyer/SP gun attachments as time went on

[MagicMissile]

In my games few have reached 1944 but for the games I have I would say number of mech units as follow.

Now with UK economy more stretched by subs maybe western allies will lose 2 mech or so at least in 43.


Soviet 43 13-17 44 20-25
Allied 43 10-12 44 15-17

/MM

[MagicMissile]

I think this thread is very interesting I have not contributed as much as I wanted as I have some things going on in real life for the moment

Here are some points.

1) I think I agree with Harrybanana that balance is not so far off and we havent really seen any games finished with the latest patch so I think changes should not be too big.

2) I think France campaign is ok and the Germans can afford a fair amount of losses and still launch a strong attack in the east. I just try to take one hexrow per turn in France and keep retreat paths open. Yes 1 corps might be lost but one should not have to lose more. Of course if one push too hard then it can get worse. I aim to take Paris last turn of July or first of August. Any faster maybe can be done but would increase risk of losing units. Yes sometimes I feel allied airforce is a bit too strong maybe there something could be done but I am not sure if it is needed.

3) I do agree that the Germans seems to fold a bit easy in 43 but I am also scared of giving them too much more as I have yet to see in recent patches the allies being able to land properly in Italy and knock out Italy in 1943 for example. Yes maybe that means too much Germans in Italy and therefore makes them too weak in the East. This is of course extremely hard to know as balance is a fickle thing and depends on so many factors.

4) I like the corps to army change but I would be careful with too many new rivers.

5) One thing I have been thinking of is possibly mech units too powerful. What about the idea of lowering OP by 1? But maybe that would be a too big change.

/MM

[AlvaroSousa]

In the latest beta the Axis get production boosts ~18% over 15 months starting in 1942 reflecting armaments increase. They won't have an impact on a 1942 campaign in terms of balance
I also doubled the Waffen SS recruits in the scripts which should see the Germans having some historical manpower problems in 1943 but not crippling.
The rivers help both sides BTW.

What I am seeing in some of the PBEM games sent to me is that the Axis do not put enough uboat pressure on the Allies. I put a lot of pressure on the Allies. So there is a balance between which the beta patch addresses.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

1) I think I agree with Harrybanana that balance is not so far off and we havent really seen any games finished with the latest patch so I think changes should not be too big.

+1000 - let's wait a little the testing of the corps to army migration.

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

2) I think France campaign is ok and the Germans can afford a fair amount of losses and still launch a strong attack in the east. I just try to take one hexrow per turn in France and keep retreat paths open. Yes 1 corps might be lost but one should not have to lose more. Of course if one push too hard then it can get worse. I aim to take Paris last turn of July or first of August. Any faster maybe can be done but would increase risk of losing units. Yes sometimes I feel allied airforce is a bit too strong maybe there something could be done but I am not sure if it is needed.

Epilogue, July 5th, 1940, Paris is taken. My opponent is very good, far better than me. I was very focused to avoid losing units by deadly counter attacks. I still think the French airforce is too good. 40% experience would be my dream.

[ncc1701e]

My losses so far. You are right Alvaro, historically the Germans have taken air losses during the Battle of France. This is just that carefully moving each of my air units between full support or mission only, I was not expecting losing so much.

[Flaviusx]

Your losses are trivial and you even are a bit ahead of schedule here with a mid July surrender. I figured it would take you a turn longer.

Honestly do not understand your complaints here. This is an excellent position for the Germans. What are you expecting here?

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Your losses are trivial and you even are a bit ahead of schedule here with a mid July surrender. I figured it would take you a turn longer.

Honestly do not understand your complaints here. This is an excellent position for the Germans. What are you expecting here?

Nothing, you have already answered to me.

You are not going to get a late June surrender on France against any kind of competent allied player. So forget that. Human allied players aren't going to be as stupid as the historical ones.

You see against AI, I can destroy Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and France in three turns and be on track compared to the historical pace. And, I don't have to care too much about losing any kind of units. The French AI is unable to perform any counter attack contrary to a competent allied player as you said.

But, I have forgotten that May 24th, 1940 was an heavy rain turn in this game. So, yes Germans are not too bad here and, for the first time, I did not lose a mech in these operations.

My main concern is that, me as French, I can inflict many losses to German player during the Battle of France. Historically, French did not. That's all. That's why I was willing to reduce the experience of the French to prevent me to do that. After sustaining such losses, I think this is nearly game over for my German PBEM opponent. It happen to me many times to fail in France as Germans.

See here:
fb.asp?m=4937739
German losses - Land: 382 - Air: 175

Edit: I guess I am getting better. The game must not be changed. The player needs to learn how to master it. But, this can be brutal for some PBEM opponent to lose in France whereas historically it was a big French defeat.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

See here:
fb.asp?m=4937739
German losses - Land: 382 - Air: 175

You see in this game the tanks literally crashed into the French defenses losing their efficiency turn after turn. My feeling was more WW1 than WW2. The combined arm of tank + plane was not working.

Thus, my feeling that the French were too strong. But, this is perhaps my opponent that was not trained enough to the game.