FYI: Alternate December 7th Start

[Pascal_slith]

OK,

here are pictures of the PH tank farms. This is the main farm.

CinCPac HQ is the big U-shaped building

[Pascal_slith]

This is the oil farm next to the drydocks and repair yards.

[Pascal_slith]

One last view of the tank farms.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Pascal

OK,

here are pictures of the PH tank farms. This is the main farm.

CinCPac HQ is the big U-shaped building

Great pics - thanks!


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. Nice white targets BTW... [;)]

[Pier5]

Whoa, I'm shocked. Everyone of those tanks has a full containment wall around it. I had no idea anyone thought about this kind of thing in 1941. And, they look thoroughly modern, meaning that the volume within the containment walls is adequate to hold the full volume of the tank if the vessel is ruptured. What would happen if a tank was hit by a 250 kg HE bomb. I don't know. If it detonated on the tank top (probably 1/4" high carbon steel), it would probably ignite the oil in the tank, but it may or may not rupture the walls of the tank. If it penetrated the roof before exploding under 15 or 20 feet of bunker C oil, the over-pressure would surely open the tank like a sardine can, but probably would not ignite the oil. All of the tanks would be equipped with steam heating coils in the bottom of the tank, as Bunker C oil cannot be pumped until heated to about 140 degrees F. However, most of the heaters would probably be off, with maybe one or two tanks available for pumping at any time. This viscosity of cold Bunker C oil is very high, more like tar than what we might think of as oil. It wouldn't gush out of the tanks, it would ooze out. Because of the height of the containment walls, they would have been constructed of reinforced concrete and would have been difficult to rupture, except by direct or very close impact of a 250 kg bomb. Recovery of the trapped oil in the overflow areas would be relatively simple.

In short, I think a rather high percentage of the oil could have been saved even if the tank farms were attacked. No need to mobilize the entire Esso fleet to get oil to Pearl.

Pier5

[Pascal_slith]

If you count, there are 17 large tanks (behind CinCPac) with a capacity of somewhat over 145000 barrels each and 36 smaller tanks (behind the naval yard, close to Hickham) with a capacity of somewhat over 46000 barrels each. That's 53 individual targets....

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Pier5
In short, I think a rather high percentage of the oil could have been saved even if the tank farms were attacked. No need to mobilize the entire Esso fleet to get oil to Pearl.

Pier5

This is absolutely correct. I have not participated in the "bomb the oil" discussion, because I think that the whole thing is irrelevant. Just because we got surprised on the morning of December 7, 1941 and lost a couple of old battleships (and maybe our faith in a world predisposed to peace) does not mean that we were complete idiots. The tank farms at Pearl, though exposed to attack, were not just some big bladder of explosive liquid that would take only one or two bomb hits to destroy.

As mdiehl has pointed out, if the Japanese thought this to be a significant target, they would have planned to bomb it. As it was, they fidgeted around with torpedo design in order to sink whatever capital ships they found in the harbor (and their emphasis seems to have been on Battleship Row, not on whatever carriers they might have been lucky enough to catch in port). Their planning was poor, and they netted only insignificant (and perhaps self-destructive) results.

I know I have said this a bazillion times, but I will say it once again: this game will put you in the position of the commanders who got handed the sh1t sandwich. You are not the planner of the war: you are the executer of the war plan.

So go execute, already.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski
As it was, they fidgeted around with torpedo design in order to sink whatever capital ships they found in the harbor (and their emphasis seems to have been on Battleship Row, not on whatever carriers they might have been lucky enough to catch in port).

Every source I have ever read/heard says that the CVs were the primary targets. Its just that they weren't there.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
Every source I have ever read/heard says that the CVs were the primary targets. Its just that they weren't there.

Then you are reading a lot of sources that I'm not. The plain fact is that Battleship Row was the primary target.

[Pascal_slith]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn
Every source I have ever read/heard says that the CVs were the primary targets. Its just that they weren't there.

Then you are reading a lot of sources that I'm not. The plain fact is that Battleship Row was the primary target.

You can read the primary operational order for the Pearl Harbor attack on the Pearl Harbor Attack and Hyperwar website at:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/monos/097/index.html

in the section "Carrier Striking Task Force Operations Order No. 3" the first group of the first wave air attack is directed to attack 4 battleships and 4 aircraft carriers, the battleships given priority. The second group of the first wave is directed at enemy land-based air targets (aircraft and hangers).

The second wave attack is also split into two groups. The first is directed at bases, the second is directed with a priority to "4 or 5 aircraft carriers". If the carrier targets are not available then they have to choose targets among cruisers and battleships (in that order).

So there is no priority between battleships or carriers in the operation as a whole, only in specific waves. What is evident is the aiming of capital ships and land-based air.