Matrix Aircraft Upgrades

[freeboy]

One can play with the points to artificially play "who wins" after all it all is "artificail"
What is the goal.????????
FUN
And what equals fun for me does not neccessarily equal fun for Frag, and Zoomie just too busy for pbem, or Chicken lol, joking of course.
I see that we need to have some playtime and forget these difficult disagreements...
Wish my pbem friend was back yesterday from vacation...

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: pompacl

Actually, I thought that WAS what he said[:)]

Back to the point, WitP is a fantastic game that allows me to play as an operational/strategic commander and see if I can do as well or better than my historical counterparts AND it forces me to live within the same constraints inflicted on those historical commanders.

No thats not what he said and no the game doesnt force you to live within the same constraints as historical commanders. Not even close. Wargames are more "what if" generators in a historical context. More so where humans can have input.

[pompack]

Much as I hate to muddy my boots by stepping into this mess, ...

That ain't mud old son. There's too many of them bulls a'snortin around this here thread [:)]

[Titanwarrior89]

MY last vote![:D] I agree with Mr. Frag completely. Could not have said it better![:'(]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

There goes this notion of "historical simulation" again. That is simply not a bar that can ever be reached in a computer GAME where humans have input.

And you will not be content until we are playing "Doom" in the Pacific.

This is a military simulation of the units available during WW2 in the Pacific, not a first person shooter where you race to upgrade to the latest BFG.

[mogami]

Hi, I only want to make sure we all understand what messing with production and upgrades really means. It means we are willing and agree to suspend adherance to contraints the designer abstracted into the game.

Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.

Now the designer to abstract this in a simple manner limits the size of the factories or number of groups that will fly this aircraft.

Now we change the system. We have turned the production of that aircraft into fantasy.

In order to restore the designers intent. (It's his game it should reflect his notions)
We need to define exactly what raw materials are used to produce any given item.
We need to define exactly where these raw materials are produced.
We need to define exactly where the material stocks are at any moment
We need to allow for enemy action to target specfic material stockpiles at land targets.


Now the game would be super realistic and players would have absolute freedom (except they still could not produce items that required the "bottleneck" resource beyond what they could harvest and transport. But the designers should spend the first few years of working on a game putting their intent down where it can be accessed and only then following apporval by all prospective buyers should they begin actual coding.

[ZOOMIE1980]

Actually, I thought that WAS what he said[:)]

No it wasn't what I said.

Back to the point, WitP is a fantastic game that allows me to play as an operational/strategic commander and see if I can do as well or better than my historical counterparts AND it forces me to live within the same constraints inflicted on those historical commanders.

What constraints might those be, again? Viable "historic" constraints are, Japan's industrial capacity was neutered from the get-go. Japan had to capture natural resources to feed it, and even then was going to be short of everything. That's about it. So long as the production system requires sane feeding (oil and resource) everything else should be fair game, as it was then. Japan was "historically constrained" to keep that Chinese Ki-43 Oscar IIa an Oscar IIa forever. That is a CHOICE they made, driven to by a particular chain of events that just happenned to happen in their run through the war. It has NO RELEVANCE to my run!

It simply does not make sense to allow a player to fiddle with some things in an a-historical fashion and not other things. Allow one player to do ANYTHING non-historical and you are done with any notion of an "historical simulation" in the way some are portraying that concept here.

The game is as the game is, and we are probably NOT going to get much in the way of significant design changes in this area. If so, in this area, it will GREATLY IMPROVE the enjoyment of a lot of players, even ones who are already satisfied, especially the "historical simulators" or still allowed to simulate their vision. In such a case the only people that would be ticked off are the Frag's who seem to only be happy when IMPOSING their ideals on others.

BTW, In my Japan IJA and IJN take warm showers in the morning together, so what?

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.

- Did the SRA provide sources of the materials needed for Japan to produce advanced aircraft (like the Frank)?
- If I keep the shipments to Japan flowing longer, is it reasonable to assume that more advanced aircraft would be available to equip more squadrons?

edit:

Put another way, the limit on production is the resource. What happens to the model if I manage to send more of that resource to Japan before the Allies cut the pipeline? Logically, I should get more of whatever I am trying to produce. If the item in question is Franks, I should see that improvement in the form of more airgroups being equipped with the Frank.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
BTW, In my Japan IJA and IJN take warm showers in the morning together, so what?

So you have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy? [;)]

[TheHellPatrol]

May i just remind you guys that if there was no Witp what would you be playing/doing with your free time that's more engaging and compelling than Witp? In my 42 years, i have played every board/pc wargame out there and there is nothing...NOTHING...like Witp except the lite versions (UV/Pacwar). Matrix will keep improving Witp, but for now enjoy it for what it's worth. When it comes to what is a bug or what is a design decision and all the related arguments, which i agree with SunDevil as to it being a good thing, i can't help but remember what Donald Rumsfeld said Feb, 12th 2002 at a Department of Defense news briefing......
"As we know,
There are known knowns.
These are the things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns
The ones we don't know
We don't know."

[Williamb]

I wonder can you RESET japanese factories in the editor ?


If they creat a scenario where they factories are already producing what they want will eliminate the need for whole issue of upgrades.

however will need something else for grand campaign.

[Sultanofsham]

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

The game is as the game is, and we are probably NOT going to get much in the way of significant design changes in this area. If so, in this area, it will GREATLY IMPROVE the enjoyment of a lot of players, even ones who are already satisfied, especially the "historical simulators" or still allowed to simulate their vision. In such a case the only people that would be ticked off are the Frag's who seem to only be happy when IMPOSING their ideals on others.

And there it is. It is funny that Frag is fighting tooth and nail against something thats being asked to be put on a toggel. The game is a "what if" generator and the more what ifs a person can select to be tossed in the chances are more people can be happy with the game and it DOESNT AFFECT how other people play the game.

God forbid people are able to do something that would have not one effect on someone elses game but as with every other game there are a few of the gaming worlds version of the Soup-Nazi saying it should be his way or no way.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I only want to make sure we all understand what messing with production and upgrades really means. It means we are willing and agree to suspend adherance to contraints the designer abstracted into the game.

Suppose there was a vital war material. Suppose Japan prewar had been buying it but in Sept 1941 had that source cut off for occupying Indo China. Now suppose Japan decides to go to war in part to secure the supply again.

After Japan captures this resource it sends 100 percent of the out put back to Japan. Suppose it is required for almost all production. Suppose Japan built aircraft in numbers that it could only because of this limit. There is no more source for Japan no matter how much she expands facilities production will be limited by this material.

Now the designer to abstract this in a simple manner limits the size of the factories or number of groups that will fly this aircraft.

Why apply artifical size limits? What needs "abstracting" here? Each heavy Industry factory requires "n" amount of resources per day to run at 100%. At 100% it outputs "x" amount of "stuff" and "y" amount of "things". That "stuff" and those "things" are then then used in aircraft factories to build aircraft of a particular type. Each type requires a specific amount of "stuff" and "things" to make one aircraft at whatever rate a single factory can produce one. The number you get in your pool depends on how many factories you have that are supplied with 100% of the "stuff" and "things" it needs. Anything less than 100% results in less than 100% output anywhere along the line. You have more a/c factories than HI to feed them, the a/c factories produce less. You run low on resources or oil and your HI run at less than 100% and feed the downstream a/c at less than 100%.... and so on. No need for abstracted limits on anything.

Now we change the system. We have turned the production of that aircraft into fantasy.

In order to restore the designers intent. (It's his game it should reflect his notions)
We need to define exactly what raw materials are used to produce any given item.
We need to define exactly where these raw materials are produced.
We need to define exactly where the material stocks are at any moment
We need to allow for enemy action to target specfic material stockpiles at land targets.


Now the game would be super realistic and players would have absolute freedom (except they still could not produce items that required the "bottleneck" resource beyond what they could harvest and transport.

Yes, this is the ideal. No need for artifical "limits". The "limits" imposed to abastract something that did not need abastraction is indeed a fantasy.

But the designers should spend the first few years of working on a game putting their intent down where it can be accessed and only then following apporval by all prospective buyers should they begin actual coding.

The designers should make clear in their marketing output and system documentation what their intent is.

[2ndACR]

We got our poll, why keep arguing the point?

Alot of us have already made our pros/cons known. Let this go, we got our answer. Maybe after the bug squash.

[hithere]

It simply does not make sense to allow a player to fiddle with some things in an a-historical fashion and not other things. Allow one player to do ANYTHING non-historical and you are done with any notion of an "historical simulation" in the way some are portraying that concept here.

I see what you are saying, i don't totally disagree....but there is no way EVERY possiblity can be accounted for. there has to be a point somewhere were reality meets playability. The game is out. I can not see any company basically re-creating any game. it took them 3 years to get this game out. there is no game company that will do something like that...but this company does listen to suggestions.....it is one of the reasons i like 2by3/Matrix so much....you can acually "talk" to the developers.

[ZOOMIE1980]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

We got our poll, why keep arguing the point?

Alot of us have already made our pros/cons known. Let this go, we got our answer. Maybe after the bug squash.

It's not really debating the point anymore. Mogami offers up some very entertaining, stimulating discussion.

[mogami]

Output of aluminum ingots had risen from 19 tons in 1933 to 71,740 in 1941, 90 percent of which was produced from bauxite imported from the Dutch East Indies. A similar dependence on imports existed for rubber, ferro-alloys such as manganese,
chrome, nickel, cobalt and tungsten, and for non-ferrous metals such as tin, lead, and mercury.

Hi, There are two items to consider.
Japan is not limited in WITP by any specific material. One week she can eat supply the next send the same type substance to expand aircraft engine production and then another shipment to a base to fly combat aircraft missions. A supply point is a supply point and a resource point is a resource point. The only limit to Japanese expansion is getting 1 converted to the other and spending it on expansion. Such unfettered abilitly alters the nature of the war beyond my poor ability to explain. Japan running at 100 percent was 10 percent of prewar USA. [X(]

In reality no matter how many fighter factories you build you can't exceed the limits imposed by your scarcest resource. (The Allies could target Bauixte mines and impact aircraft production in WITP he has to target all resource centers to the point of lowering imports to achive the same result.)

Things are done for a reason. Taken out of context they may appear wooden headed when change is requested. You can't change a card in the tower without needing to build a new tower. Certainly you may disagree but since it is hard to prove or justify any actual data you have to agree to play by the designers rules. The market place is where you vote since I doubt Matrix or 2by3 consider this their final effort.

I do object to this constant barrage on the system as opposed to requests for explaining it's actual use. But it's not personnel I understand where it comes from and in many case sympathize however there are games that allow unrestricted production and design. Then there is WITP which contray to popular belief is meant to allow freedom in OPERANTIONAL planning. Not become a builder game. Either you trust the designers or you don't.
Before we begin making changes we have to examine just what is connected to what. The Japanese were able to produce 2500+ aircraft per month by 1944. This was not limited by the factories or assembly lines she could build but by the stocks of material on hand. And these stocks were not what arrived per month but what had been built up through 1943's peak output and transport. (The Japanese kept their production supplied pretty much right up to the end. I mean they had lost the war long before their output suffered from shortage.)


Operational Planning requires the planner to make plans based on what he has. What the enemy has. What he can do and what the enemy can do. No where does there exist room for wishfull thinking or changing the capabilty of units to satisfy the planner. You know from the start you will have x number of Oscar and x number of Frank. Make your plans according to that and stop daydreaming.

"What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub"

[Mr.Frag]

And there it is. It is funny that Frag is fighting tooth and nail against something thats being asked to be put on a toggel. The game is a "what if" generator and the more what ifs a person can select to be tossed in the chances are more people can be happy with the game and it DOESNT AFFECT how other people play the game.

Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games. What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did.

What have *you* contributed to WitP apart from you lip? What makes you better then them or more deserving? There are people who have been here for years putting forth feature requests that make the game as a whole better for everyone.

[ZOOMIE1980]

...Not become a builder game. Either you trust the designers or you don't.

It's not an issue of trust, but one of lack of communication or just ommitting the intent in any of the public materials covering the issue. It is apparent by the 80% response that many expected a "builder" game from the Japanese perspective.

Operational Planning requires the planner to make plans based on what he has. What the enemy has.

Like a pool of Franks to replace Oscars but Oscars stuck on Oscars. Being able to replace Oscars with something else, if available, would definitely be a part of my "plan".

What he can do and what the enemy can do. No where does there exist room for wishfull thinking or changing the capabilty of units to satisfy the planner.

Sure there does. If units are flying old junk and my industrial wizards, engineers have produce a lot of better stuff, because my tremendous "operational planning" has made it possible, it stands to reason I should be able to use that stuff and throw my junk away.

You know from the start you will have x number of Oscar and x number of Frank. Make your plans according to that and stop daydreaming.

How do I know that, again, on Dec 7, 1941? Oh...I forgot....20x20 hindsight.....

[ZOOMIE1980]

What have *you* contributed to WitP apart from you lip? What makes you better then them or more deserving? There are people who have been here for years putting forth feature requests that make the game as a whole better for everyone.

And apparently one that has gone over like a turd in a punchbowl at a dinner party....

[hithere]

test....hmm..that is odd...this this forum get moved?