Can an Allied Player Win the Game?

[mlees]

I've only played Allied vs JAP AI, so I guess I'm an Allied Fanboy. My apologies if the fanboy label has negative connotations. None were meant.

I play and enjoy this game because I have had a great interest in this subject matter my whole life. I don't play it to "learn" history, but that's because I don't expect any from the game itself. (Although, I sense that there are A LOT more people out there who share my WWII interest. [:)])

For those of you who DO use this software for "serious" exploration of the historical WITP, OK. I don't have any problem with that. It's your 80 bucks, use the game how you wish. (And I sincerely wish that as many of you all as possible to feel that your money was well spent.)

My focus here is getting out of my shell and seeing what other players feel on the variuos aspects of the game are. (Hence my comment on the tempers flaring in Hirohito's WAR ROOM thread. I am perplexed by the foul moods and thin skins I sense there.)

I am not a Veteran player, nor will I deliberately stomp on someones toes in these forums.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Some devs thoughts would be good right about now, you know? The audience that WitP was supposed to appeal to is beginning to shrink, and that isn't good for business...

And the pissed off WITP crowd is going to get increasingly larger and more annoyed the more they play this half finished game. Some response other than doubletalk would be appropriate. I suspect this is less a labour of love, a term I've heard regarding this project for two years, and more a labour pain which they would gladly just have "go away".

[Feinder]

Either if you (third person) believe the game it borked; if you look at how active and dedicated this crowd is, right or wrong, -SOMEBODY- will come up with a mod, with "properly adjusted" vp values, or whatever else is necessary to properly "balance" things. Look at how many mods have come out in just the 2(?) months this game has been released?

Talk about some dedicated (and talented) folks with WAY too much time on their hands (*grin*).

You can talk about who's responsibility it is to "fix" it if there's anything wrong. Sure in la-la land WitP would be patched every week with OB/bug fixes. But it's not, and won't ever be. However, just as I believe it was AMAZINGLY insightful for NeverWinter Nights to allow the PLAYERS to mod the game, so have the designers of WitP done. Who was it, Lemur? that came out with the "correct" mod for 12-07-41, even before the devs? Not meant to be a slam on Matrix (great job again, btw), but I'm just saying that, things will work themselves out. Most likely it -will- be a mod by a player, with adjusted VP values, or exp levels or a constant disruption leve or SOMETHING to more accurately portray things. But either way, it -will- sort itself out. Just make sure you keep Spooky's site bookmarked, so you can grab the mod whenever somebody makes it...

Time to go home, and check to see if U2 or LtFighter/KBullard sent me turns!

-F-

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Runsilentrundeep
OK flame away!

I think your comments are perfectly sensible.

I don't flame, I just state my case in opposition to what I think is nonsense, then I shut up and let it go at that.

The primary difficulty with WitP, as I see it, is that it is a historical situation twisted around a game system that is just not up to the task of producing a gaming simulation when applied to the historical facts.

What's happened here is that the Pacific theater of WWII has been demonstrated not to be a good subject for balanced gaming where both sides have an equal chance at winning. A deeply flawed game system was applied, people with a chauvinistic interest were listened to seriously and accommodated, and what we have is what remains...

[Tankerace]

I don't think the game is bad, I love it. But my main gripes with it (teleporting troops, leader bugs, etc) cannot be fixed by modders, without the source code.

I love WitP. I just want to make sure it gets fixed, so that I can keep loving it. None of us have made it into '45 yet. I'd hate to think they pull the plug, then we all get to '45, and nothing works (We already know they shipped the game with the Ohka not working, what else is broken?).

Everyone has done an immense job on the game, and I for one (who has also done a lot of work on it, with modding) don't want to see there labor wasted because everyone gets to the point where they can't/won't play the game with bugs.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: worr

I recommend John Costello's "The Pacific War"? I read it again after purchasing this game and was fascinated by the parallels. If you want to talk about historical double takes in the game, I wouldn't look to Singapore, nor the PIs. I'd rather look to China. There is the biggest surprise I found and there is where the land combat limitations ain the game re more easily exposed. I understand the political realities that were present in WWII, and the division of resources, but I am still curious if the goal of China was that obtainable in the real war.

I have read it [:)] and other books on the Pacific though there are doubtless many who have read more. I just don't see the Japanese as the ones making all the strategic mistakes. They did make bad moves, but no more so than the allies. I think we will just have to agree to disagree here.

ORIGINAL: worr
I haven't played as much as others. And I do hope those commenting on one side or the other have actually played the game through to 1943. Have you played the IJN through to 43, Hoplosternum? I'm guessing your point of view is more toward the allied side of the experience. I found China doable in one of my games, though I must say my opponent has made some errors that put me in a good supply situation. The other game I'm playing I'm getting a stout defense in depth of China from a good player. It is April 42. And supplies are slipping.

I have not played that much either. Yet the advice I am seeing for the allies is to be very cautious. I don't think we will agree here but to me Coral Sea, the Doolittle raid and Midway (all before KB was weakened significantly) all occurred.

I certainly have not played Japan into '43. I don't doubt that bar an auto victory they soon get into a world of hurt. I doubt they can stop the allies establishing bases to reduce Japan to rubble no matter how much of Asia they take. To me this is not the point. As either the Japanese I want to refight the Solomons campaign and beat the USN. Not have them abandoned by the allies before I arrive. Likewise as the allies I want to fight somewhere in 42.

The rate of advance and combat is just too quick and costs the victors too little. I just don't think we will agree that the game has it right here. They can do too much too soon often with the same assets. Hence the forces that kill China can just march right on to kill off India.

I am though very interested to hear about your successes in China. I would love to see some more strategies on how to defend there. To me it appears that the Japanese can easily concentrate and kill off large portions of the Chinese army. But I would love to be proved wrong.

I would also like to hear any decent strategies on how to counter the IJN. All that seems to be put up is - don't fight till mid 43 or hit them where they ain't. I don't doubt these are good strategies in WitP. For the former it's not what happened historically - we're just going to have to disagree here [:D] . Nor does it sound like much of a fun game. The hit them were they ain't sounds good but with the speed KB can move and the fact it is really hard to know where it is unless it's raiding you makes this very tough. KB is just too easy to keep together and with that acomplish all but the most outlandish of Japanese plans.

Still I and others have said this all before. So I'll drop it now. It's been an interesting debate [:)]

ORIGINAL: worr
Overall, I find this game very gratifying, especially as someone who reads a great deal about WWII history. I find the parallels fascinating, as well as the departures once you decided to take a different course. If support is being pulled from WitP then that would be bad. But I haven't had that confirmed to me, other than some silence from the moderators of late. It is a holiday weekend here in the states.

I too find the game adictive [:)] And despite my reservations would highly recommend it. Personnally I would like to see the Japanese weakened a little at the start. There is always the editor. While that cannot correct the speed of land combat it can equal things up a little.

ORIGINAL: worr
Oh, I might add that the one thing that makes a true war game very historical in flavor, and makes you feel like you were really there, is the human interaction with PBEM and these boards on the internet. That way you get the real feel for all the grumbling and moaning that went on among the grunts and generals in the real war.

Worr, out

The game really shines in PBEM. I just wish it was a little more even early on. You know like in real life [;)] OK I'll stop now [:D]

[dtravel]

I've been watching the posts the last few days. (Not just in this thread, we have this same thing going on in several threads.) While I admit to being as guilty as anyone else, I think we have reached the point of just going around in circles and entrenching in our mental positions. I respectfully suggest a cooling off period. Lay off the flames, complaints about bugs, responses to same, etc., for this week. After everyone has had a chance to cool down we can try to make constructive suggestions again.

Okay?

[Tankerace]

Yeah, hes right. I guess we are all just a little upset about the bugs. Let us move on, cool down, and play.

EDIT: Good, the new sig works.

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I don't think the game is bad, I love it. But my main gripes with it (teleporting troops, leader bugs, etc) cannot be fixed by modders, without the source code.

PLus, I do think its a little odd the the people trying to sort it all out aren't even paid (pry, Mogami, Mr. Frag, Nikademus, etc), whereas the guys that made the game and can fix the problems the quickest are silent.

I love WitP. I just want to make sure it gets fixed, so that I can keep loving it. None of us have made it into '45 yet. I'd hate to think they pull the plug, then we all get to '45, and nothing works (We already know they shipped the game with the Ohka not working, what else is broken?).

Everyone has done an immense job on the game, and I for one (who has also done a lot of work on it, with modding) don't want to see there labor wasted because everyone gets to the point where they can't/won't play the game with bugs.

Simply put, they had better suck it up and fix what modders can't fix or release the code. We are well beyond the days of travelling snakeoil salesmen who sell snot touted as oysters and skedaddle out of town before the duped realize it. In a niche market like this there are not enough one horse towns which can be screwed and still draw a crowd in front of your gawdily painted wagon.

[Tankerace]

LOL.... an analogy like that I expected from someplace like my state of Oklahoma, not Canada, [:D]

Ron, that analogy just made my day.... that and not crashing landing on the Langley (see new sig).

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Yeah, hes right. I guess we are all just a little upset about the bugs. Let us move on, cool down, and play.

EDIT: Good, the new sig works.

Why not? Nobody in that ugly wagon that pulled through here will be back anyway.[8D]

Nice pick but your other one is better. Maybe see if you can make it like a screen saver and flash tons of pics and really screw people using the forums with 4yr old boxes like mine![:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

LOL.... an analogy like that I expected from someplace like my state of Oklahoma, not Canada, [:D]

Ron, that analogy just made my day.... that and not crashing landing on the Langley (see new sig).

Yeehawwww![:D] PF looks like fun but I heard it was full of weird bugs and bad OOBs etc. EG. Starting a campaign as US Marine pilot, you get to choose from one plane...a P400. Errrrrrr...wrong. Hopefully the guy I talked to had a pirated copy of the beta and not the retail version.

[Tankerace]

Actually its CFS2.... I'm broke so I have to wait to get PF... I can't wait for PF though, I am going to begin the Kamikaze campaign....errr, wait a minute.

Oh, Im gonna go back to new sig, this one does suck.... I was just happy that out of 12 attempts I actually caught the 1 frigging arrestor wire on the thing.

Of course, once you land on the Langley, and Essex seems like a huge airbase [:D]

[Runsilentrundeep]

First of all, In regards to the "flame away" comment it was more of a joke than an actual challange, I find that this forum is by far the most knowledgable and polite forum I have ever been a part of, Cheers.

There are some extremes that have been noted, I agree that there is next to no way that the IJA should be able to win a decisive victory in Siberia, the probes in '39 were such a train wreck that it changed Japaneese strategic thinking. The Russians faced the best on their "Western Front" and beat the best. I have a feeling that the Bear would have eaten Tojo's lunch.

Hindsight is always the bogeyman of wargames, I could not tell you how many times I have played the battle of Gettysburg (in practically all of it's incarnations) and seen the Union army get destroyed by nightfall July 1st. Also strategies and tactics get shared, which is one of the reasons why most opening moves by the Japaneese player tend to be very similar.

Also Games by their very nature are build to model and fight the war that was fought, not the what ifs, it is the nature of the beast. Ok let us say there is no Pearl Harbor in a hypothetical game of WITP, does the US then Scrap the long term plans to build the Montana Class BBs and instead speed up the Essex class CVs? If you are a player and you have control over your production, of course you would, because you know that the Essex Class is more bang for the buck, because of history.
Games with one person in control also don't have to deal with command fog (I tell you to do somthing and you do it at 99% efficiency, he tells somone who get the totally wrong idea and chaos insues.).

I love this game, I love to sink ships blow up air planes and land where my enemy least expects it. And if it's not fair, neither is war.[;)]

[Tankerace]

Aw come on, you're from Oklahoma... You know it was a challenge [:D]

[Runsilentrundeep]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

Aw come on, you're from Oklahoma... You know it was a challenge [:D]

Like a OU vs Baylor Challange or an OU vs. LSU challange (sorry I know the last one hurts).

(note the author is a recent oklahoman, please don't hold that against him-he is attending the High School 7A state championship on Friday-go Union!)

[Tankerace]

LOL... Union eh? I new a girl from there, she graduated last year though. Goes to OSU now.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Tankerace

I don't think the game is bad, I love it. But my main gripes with it (teleporting troops, leader bugs, etc) cannot be fixed by modders, without the source code.

I love WitP. I just want to make sure it gets fixed, so that I can keep loving it. None of us have made it into '45 yet. I'd hate to think they pull the plug, then we all get to '45, and nothing works (We already know they shipped the game with the Ohka not working, what else is broken?).

Everyone has done an immense job on the game, and I for one (who has also done a lot of work on it, with modding) don't want to see there labor wasted because everyone gets to the point where they can't/won't play the game with bugs.

I agree totally. I stopped playing UV a couple of years ago because the game seemed to become increasingly unstable as more and more patches were added. It finally got to the point where the thing didn't seem to run at all.

I have got to this point of giving up play now with WITP - at least until maybe patch 1.40 or something comes out. At least now one can load the corrected version rather than loading version 1.00, patching, then patching the patches, etc. like UV did.

In the last 2 turns in playing version 1.30, I have encountered 3 serious bugs that have set me back 3 turns, so I am actually having NEGATIVE progress. This was after having to replay the previous two turns (due to a bug) just prior to this.

Watching WITP_DUDE play Zeta was great fun - until the teleporting troops bug kicked in. I have spent just entirely too much time checking units each turn to make sure they do things right - only to find out they haven't been doing things ordered, or have disappeared entirely, etc. Do I want to spend 200+ hours getting half-way through a campaign only to find out there is a fatal bug that won't allow the game to continue? I don't think so.

So, alas, I have decided to just watch the forums to see what happens to the game. I hope that the game gets fixed, but I am not sanguine of the prospects. I guess I am not alone in my feelings. Ron Saueracker, who has sunk a ton of effort into the game also seems to feel the same way. Probably there are a bunch more of disillusioned players at this point.

[Tankerace]

Well, I must confess, I have been doing a lot of work on War Plan Orange, but barring testing things in it, I haven't played WitP in three weeks, not since the Leader Bug came back. I love the game, I was hyped from the begginning. But I fnd myself getting frustrated after 1 or 2 turns and going to play other games. WitP is good to simulate the small battles, where the the major bugs can't take root before the game ends. But with all the difficulties in moving troops, can you imagine how hard it would be to re-invade the Phillippines? Or to do Operation Olympic (invade Japan)? It would be a freaking nightmare. Imagine Zeta's failed assault on Midway, on a scale 15 times larger.

Plus, I don't know if anyone has thought of this, in '45 the Japanese player has a great way to get easy VPs. Make all his kamikazes night units. The Allies can't use night fighters, the game crashes. So, his Zekes and Oscars can plow into ships with impunity. That doesn't seem right.

On the plus side ([&:]), with the spare time I have I am become really adept at carrier landings now in CFS2. Good practice for PF.

WitP is a great game. I just hope that the game can be finished.

[Tankerace]

And so I don't get labeled anti-WitP, after playing those other games, I usually come back and play a turn or two. Granted, its no where near the 15-20 turns a day I did back in July, but I am not abandoning the game. And WPO is coming along nicely. I'll be posting an update on the First, with new screens, and other goodies.