Play Balance in China

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

I've gotta go with Froonp on this one: I don't know anything about the number of russian men in an Army, but I do know a bit about the Sino-Japanese War .. many of the formations designated as armies in China by the Japanese contained as few as 2 Divisions: for the Japanese Military Command at least, the term 'army' was more about administration and designated area than about the number of actual men in boots.

But the question is what it represents in WiF. The different countries' corps/armies represent a varrying number of historical divisions.

Divisions are not all equal either. For example, Germany kept a lot of KaupfGroup (sp?) that were nowhere near their original full strength.

[Mziln]

Kampfgroup

1.2 Scale

Units

A land unit represents an army or corps (optional division units represent smaller units, see 22.4.1 Divisions (AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2) and 22.4.2Artillery (AsA option 3)).

22.4.1 Divisions (AsA/MiF/PoliF option 2)

Asia Aflame, Mech in Flames and Politics in Flames include divisions. Treat any brigade size unit as a division.

[Manic Inertia]

Yes, but Kampfgruppen were only formed towards the end, and even then only out of necessity, when there wasn't time or resources to reconstitute depleted or shattered divisions: the wehrmacht was more 'modular' than other armies, making it relatively easy for them to just cobble together these 'special' formations from the various remaining coherent battalions and regiments.

[Hortlund]

A kampfgruppe is nothing but an ad hoc group put together for a specific task. They existed all througout the war. Think of it as a task force. It was quite common to break up a pz division for example and put a pz batallion together with a mot inf regt and a SP arty bat to form a fast-moving penetrating unit. For examples of this, look at how the pz divisions were used during Barbarossa.

[Manic Inertia]

I stand corrected - the information I've got on the subject of kampfgruppe is obviously rather dodgy.

Also, could I please ask you to reconsider making that xenophobic sounding remark about Japanese in future entries? I have several japanese acquaintances, including an ex-girlfreind, and I can assure you it's in slightly poor taste and entirely inaccurate.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

A kampfgruppe is nothing but an ad hoc group put together for a specific task. They existed all througout the war. Think of it as a task force. It was quite common to break up a pz division for example and put a pz batallion together with a mot inf regt and a SP arty bat to form a fast-moving penetrating unit. For examples of this, look at how the pz divisions were used during Barbarossa.

The other issue about kampfgruppen which was not raised in this discussion (unless I missed it in my scanthru) was step attrition, e.g. in SPI's War in Europe an "eliminated" or exchange combat result reduced a 6-5 INF div to a 1-5 KG. WIF has no step attrition counters. The "shattered" result is WIF's form of step attrition. Kampfgruppen are removed from the game entirely for a month, which makes sense given WIF's corps-level scale.

[wosung]

The abstraction of attrition through removing whole corps-sized units for as long as nearly 3 months and the similar abstracted production system are the only aspect I just don't like in wif. No production numbers and loss numbers of tanks & aircraft.

It may be a necessary simplification for a board game, but not for a pc-game. In wif weak combat formations are substituted with zocs or with nothing. It's a sort of boardgame-Zen.

Especially air combat, which was highly attritional in ww2, doesn't feel right in wif. Also wif ground combat is quite abstract. (Think of the massive number of completely understrength divisions on both sides on the East front at the end of the war).

But that won't change because of all the implications for the game system.

Beside from that: this is a highly inspirating & entertaining forum.

regards

wosung

[Cheesehead]

The abstraction of attrition through removing whole corps-sized units for as long as nearly 3 months and the similar abstracted production system are the only aspect I just don't like in wif. No production numbers and loss numbers of tanks & aircraft.

It may be a necessary simplification for a board game, but not for a pc-game. In wif weak combat formations are substituted with zocs or with nothing. It's a sort of boardgame-Zen.

Especially air combat, which was highly attritional in ww2, doesn't feel right in wif. Also wif ground combat is quite abstract. (Think of the massive number of completely understrength divisions on both sides on the East front at the end of the war).

Sounds like Hearts of Iron 2 is the game for you. HoI2 represents the details of production and incremental wear and tear of units and organization throughout the course of a units history...But WiF is a better game!

[wosung]

nope: HOI is RT and therefore unplayable, esp. the air war. But basically you just cannot simulate six years of world wide conflict in real time mode - or at least can't do it without lots of AI for players help, simulating staff work, rules of engagement etc.

But even the 15? years old Gary Grisgby classics "War in Russia" "Second Front" and "Pacific war" do have more detailed production and wear and tear.

Problem is, how to add historical detail without make ww2 grand strategy unplayable (like the new Grigsby, War in the pacific)

And in the end for years now wif cwif and mwif seems to be the only worthwile efforts to simulate six years of world wide conflict.

Regards

wosung

[Hortlund]

HoI and HoI2 are not real time, they are continuous time.

You can pause whenever you want, for as long as you want, and do whatever you want.

Your comments about the production model and wear and tear on units tells me that you have never really played and/or understood how HoI works.

[wodin]

I just dont understand why they made HoI continuous time. It just seems bizarre at this level.

Oh yes I do know. They didnt have to actually build a new engine!!

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

HoI and HoI2 are not real time, they are continuous time.

You can pause whenever you want, for as long as you want, and do whatever you want.

Your comments about the production model and wear and tear on units tells me that you have never really played and/or understood how HoI works.

pffft: thats just trotzkist sophism:[>:]

1. Nearly every RTS game is pausable. So nearly every RTS game is continuous time. Now we can call all the RTS games continuous time games (CTG), if you like. But that doesn't cange a thing. [:-]

2. My comments about production model and wear and tear were comments about what I would like to see in mwif, or in fact in any good ww2 grand strategy game - not about HOI.

3. And yes: I do know about HOIs unit upgrades and brigade attachments, cause I'v been playing both of them. But there's no division OOB or production numbers of tanks etc in HOI -just a % strenght bar. [:(]

4. Hope you're not Japanese (in the way you percieve the Japanese yourself). [;)]

Regards

wosung

[Manic Inertia]

Shannon, I have a small favour to ask you.

I have politely requested the forum user 'Panzerjaeger Hortlund' to desist from making what I consider to be an ignorant and racist remark about japanese people every time he contributes to this forum. He has ignored this request, and as I have several japanese acquaintancies, and I find this highly offensive.

I beleive that in permitting this to continue, you risk compromising the moral integrity of this forum. Please would you immediately delete any postings which contain racist remarks from now on, or even consider blocking such users from contributing at all?

[Caranorn]

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

Shannon, I have a small favour to ask you.

I have politely requested the forum user 'Panzerjaeger Hortlund' to desist from making what I consider to be an ignorant and racist remark about japanese people every time he contributes to this forum. He has ignored this request, and as I have several japanese acquaintancies, and I find this highly offensive.

I beleive that in permitting this to continue, you risk compromising the moral integrity of this forum. Please would you immediately delete any postings which contain racist remarks from now on, or even consider blocking such users from contributing at all?

I believe that'd be an issue for a moderator (I doubt Steve has time for this and I certainly'd be astonished if this was his role).

And yes, I also find that quote doubious (and certainly not descriptive of any Japanese I ever met).

[hakon]

In principle, HoI (or HoI 2) could be great games. Their main drawbacks are the combination of the use of the Europa Universalis engine (taylored for a reinessance game), and the lack of custom mechanics for air and naval warfare (which essentially used slightly modified land combat mechanics).

I do believe that a real time game, like HoI, is quite possible, with a more specialized engine. As it stands, HoI is really only a decent game when it comes to land combat.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: hakon
...

I do believe that a real time game, like HoI, is quite possible, with a more specialized engine. As it stands, HoI is really only a decent game when it comes to land combat.

But it is fun as hell watching those little airplanes fly back and forth on missions.

[YohanTM2]

Manic,

You need to email a moderator and include quotes from any posts you find offensive.

[hakon]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman

ORIGINAL: hakon
...

I do believe that a real time game, like HoI, is quite possible, with a more specialized engine. As it stands, HoI is really only a decent game when it comes to land combat.

But it is fun as hell watching those little airplanes fly back and forth on missions.

Actually, I find it quite frustrating. When I send my waves of stukas against big concentration of ground troops, they have almost zero effect, while if I send them vs a single (dispersed) division, the division is massacred. Essentially, in HoI, planes are mostely usefull for massacring fleeing foes, while classic ground support and interdiction is almost pointless.

It also frustrates me that regardless of my radar cover, my fighters fly around at random when bombers are incoming,instead of intercepting the bombers like they should.

[Mziln]

I bought HoI when it was new.

I found it unusual that a strategic game needed to set the time for your attacks. If this were a tactical game I could understand this but this was supposed to be a strategic game. RTS belongs to tactical games IMO.

I enjoyed the production portion of the game until I found that there was a world boycott of selling raw materials to Germany.

Then the first patch came out and I couldn't patch the game. I called customer service and they wanted to sign me up for their newsletter and would not address my problem.

I returned the HoI and swapped it for CIV3. At least I could patch CIV3.

Then I got into the CWiF Beta a more strategic game, simpler logistics system, a political system, and lots of options.

With a strategic game I prefer political actions/reactions, production, and combat. Using a turn based system.

The WiF turn based system gives you a simulation of the planning required for strategic operations.

With a RTS your just hoping you pushed some units in the right direction.

With a strategic game unless you are out of supply. I would hope my logistics people would keep supplying the beans, bullets, and bandages to keep my units up to strength.

If I wanted to track every plane, pilot, tank, gun, infantryman, and etc. I would be pushing for a computer version of “Campaigns for North Africa”.

[Ballista]

ORIGINAL: Mziln

(...)
If I wanted to track every plane, pilot, tank, gun, infantryman, and etc. I would be pushing for a computer version of “Campaigns for North Africa”.
(...)

Heh. I saw that game actually being "played" (if that's what you call it). I came to the conclusion after observing them for awhile that those participating were not quite human..... [:)]