Allied Aircraft (last chance to add new planes)

[el cid again]

In the game a RNZAF unit is called RAF

Which unit please.

488 Squadron.

[el cid again]

Hmm so because the sea Hurricane is too unimportant ! to put in the game we will delete an aircraft carrier from its historical availibility date !!!

Actually, this was not my reasoning - and I did explain myself. My reasoning was "because the carrier went to cover the landing on Madagascar it is not available until after that operation is over - so the issue of the Sea Hurricane is moot" - not quite the same thing.

However, I have put the Sea Hurricane back in the list. I am offended to do so for a single nine plane squadron - but I decided that wise players might take some of the awful carrier fighter units available in early 1942 in the area and upgrade them to Sea Hurricane. There won't be a lot of these planes - but more than nine! I don't like the fact that the ship is available early - it was ONLY used as a ferry - and players surely will use it as a carrier! Players surely will also NOT withdraw it to cover Madagascar. But in the end, I do not believe ANY carrier was needed at Madagascar. IF real world events had sent none the outcome would be the same. So I can live with players "cheating" in this way. And I have a dream - one day to put Madagascar on our map. I made a proposal yesterday - it failed - but I will keep trying.

[JeffroK]

El Cid,

I mean they had independent numbering systems so there was a 1 Sqn RAF, RAAF, RNZAF & RCAF

Whoops, Don beat me.

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

CHS has Beaufort I and VI. It has them each in two units. But my RAF reference says none were in theater.

Can anyone confirm any of the following units had Beaufort in the Pacific?

No 22 RAF
No 15 RAAF
No 100 RAAF
No 149 RCAF

The following RAAF units flew Beauforts.

1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 15, 32 & 100 Sqns RAAF.......RAAF Official History

22 Sqn RAF was on Beauforts in the UK but "In 1942, No. 22 Squadron moved to the Far East, re-equipping with Beaufighters in the process and undertaking anti-shipping rocket attacks" http://www.raf.mod.uk/squadrons/h22.html

[el cid again]

The following RAAF units flew Beauforts.

1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 15, 32 & 100 Sqns RAAF.......RAAF Official History

OK. But what I need to know is

Did they fly them DURING the Pacific War IN THEATER?

For example, 22 Squadron seems to have been in theater but with Beaufighters. Are any others like that? Are any others never in theater?
Of those in theater - when do they come -and where do they go?

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

In the game a RNZAF unit is called RAF

Which unit please.

488 Squadron.

This is not a RNZAF Squadron. This is a Royal Air Force Squadron with primarily New Zealand Pilots.

The other 400 series squadron at Singapore is also RAF but with Australian Pilots. In the game it is designated as an RAAF squadron purely to allow it to be merged with No. 21 Squadron. It could be more accurately designated as RAF/British but that would not allow the historical merging of squadrons.

400 Series are all RAF, equipped by RAF, under orders of RAF, but using commonwealth pilots. They are separate and distinct from the Commonwealth Air Forces.

[el cid again]

The following RAAF units flew Beauforts.

1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 15, 32 & 100 Sqns RAAF.......RAAF Official History

All these squadrons are in the CHS database. Only 15 and 100 are
assigned Beauforts. They are assigned the right version - interpreting
V-IX as VIII.

But I have a statement it had been withdrawn before the Pacific Campaign began. I do not see it in an OB listing after it began.
Did 15 and 100 have Beaufort during the war? Did any of the others have it during the war? [All are assigned Hudsons].

[el cid again]

This is not a RNZAF Squadron. This is a Royal Air Force Squadron with primarily New Zealand Pilots.

The other 400 series squadron at Singapore is also RAF but with Australian Pilots. In the game it is designated as an RAAF squadron purely to allow it to be merged with No. 21 Squadron. It could be more accurately designated as RAF/British but that would not allow the historical merging of squadrons.

400 Series are all RAF, equipped by RAF, under orders of RAF, but using commonwealth pilots. They are separate and distinct from the Commonwealth Air Forces.

Thanks. This is helpful. Bloody Shambles lists 488 as an RNZAF unit.
If it really had NZ pilots, I am inclined to do so as well, for honor's sake.
[NZ does not get a whole lot of units anywhere - much less those that fight. Its entire land contingent expedition to Italy engaged only once - at Monte Cassino - and withdrew and went home in about 48 hours! It had exceeded its casualty threshhold. But it seems a logistic waste to commit a fine, expensive, mechanized land division after coming so far after doing so little.] Is there any reason to want 488 to merge with RAF units, vice RNZAF units?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

[Actually, this was not my reasoning - and I did explain myself. My reasoning was "because the carrier went to cover the landing on Madagascar it is not available until after that operation is over - so the issue of the Sea Hurricane is moot" - not quite the same thing.

What are you talking about the ship was in theater for over 5 months before it took part in the Madagascar ops. During which time it not only ferried aircraft it patrolled the bay of Bengal and was certainly available for op during this time period and in fact tried to engage KB during its Indian ocean raid. Whats so moot about that? Madagascar and Mediteranean ops are simulated by RN ship withdrawl. Of course you can do whatever you want in your own mod but what exactly does RHS stand for? Real Historic Senerio? If so IMHO you decisions seem a bit arbitrary for that claim to fame.

[TIMJOT]

yeah Nik I drag these old bones to take a peek in here from time to time. Been hearing good things about your mod, have to try it sometime.

[Nikademus]

Think you'll enjoy it as long as you don't mind the Sea Hurricanes being army colored. [;)]

[el cid again]

Madagascar and Mediteranean ops are simulated by RN ship withdrawl.

Are they? I read in the forum Allied players disregard these - buy them off with "political points" or something like that. DO RN ships have to withdraw - or not? In any case, note that I have Indomitable in the mod, and with Sea Hurricanes.

[Bradley7735]

Most months after about feb/mar 42, the RN will ask for a capital ship and 2 destroyers to be withdrawn. The allied player can choose to ignore this, but they will lose a LOT of political points. So many, in fact, that the player will now be hampered when wanting to change the HQ on any unit or even changing leaders. This is not trivial. Choosing to keep an RN ship when it's asked to be withdrawn really hampers other strategic decisions.

I agree with the original poster that this issue is taken care of by the withdrawl function. Maybe it's another type of capital ship. Maybe it's still a carrier, but the player chooses a different ship.

Just because historically, that ship was an aircraft ferry for a few months, then went to Madagascar doesn't mean that is what will happen in any given WITP game. maybe all carriers (US and UK) are sunk in 2/42? What then? Would the admiralty have made it cover the Madagascar mission? Maybe they would have kept it in Ceylon.

Let the player decide what happens to the ship. If it's asked to be withdrawn, they may let it go or they may keep it. If they keep it, a division in Australia will stay in Australia instead of reinforcing Port Morseby. It's give and take. (btw, a carrier is worth almost as much as a division in political points)

[bbbf]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The following RAAF units flew Beauforts.

1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 15, 32 & 100 Sqns RAAF.......RAAF Official History

All these squadrons are in the CHS database. Only 15 and 100 are
assigned Beauforts. They are assigned the right version - interpreting
V-IX as VIII.

But I have a statement it had been withdrawn before the Pacific Campaign began. I do not see it in an OB listing after it began.
Did 15 and 100 have Beaufort during the war? Did any of the others have it during the war? [All are assigned Hudsons].

1 sqn may have had Hudsons 1st, then Beauforts (42), then Mosquitos.
2 sqn didn't fly beauforts ever,as far as I can tell.
6 sqn Hudson to Beauforts
7 sqn Hudson to Beauforts
8 sqn Hudson to Beauforts
14 sqn Hudson to Beauforts
32 sqn Hudson to Beauforts
15 sqn Beauforts for entire Pacific War
100 sqn Beauforts for entire Pacific War

[JeffroK]

2 Sqn RAAF was based at Hughes in March 1944 equipped with Beauforts

In June 1944 it re-equipped with Mitchells

Air War against Japan 1943-1945......George J Odgers

[el cid again]

The Hudson listing shows a 139 RAF Squadron in the Far East theater.
It is not in the CHS listing. Was this unit in the Pacific? If so, when and where?

[el cid again]

Most months after about feb/mar 42, the RN will ask for a capital ship and 2 destroyers to be withdrawn. The allied player can choose to ignore this, but they will lose a LOT of political points. So many, in fact, that the player will now be hampered when wanting to change the HQ on any unit or even changing leaders. This is not trivial. Choosing to keep an RN ship when it's asked to be withdrawn really hampers other strategic decisions.

I agree with the original poster that this issue is taken care of by the withdrawl function. Maybe it's another type of capital ship. Maybe it's still a carrier, but the player chooses a different ship.

Just because historically, that ship was an aircraft ferry for a few months, then went to Madagascar doesn't mean that is what will happen in any given WITP game. maybe all carriers (US and UK) are sunk in 2/42? What then? Would the admiralty have made it cover the Madagascar mission? Maybe they would have kept it in Ceylon.

Let the player decide what happens to the ship. If it's asked to be withdrawn, they may let it go or they may keep it. If they keep it, a division in Australia will stay in Australia instead of reinforcing Port Morseby. It's give and take. (btw, a carrier is worth almost as much as a division in political points)

Sir - I have posted twice in this thread that the carrier is back in. I don't think it is entirely right that the Allies get to have their cake and eat it too: they can FAIL to send ships really used somewhere off map, but STILL get the assumed IDENTICAL event sequence! Nevertheless, that is the scenario as designed by Matrix, and it is going to be in place for RHS.
I do not particularly like it. But until I can do something with code to penalize players who don't withdraw, I will leave this alone.

[el cid again]

BBBF - and all others who have contributed unit data - thank you for helping me understand possible missing or extra or misassigned units.
It is impossible to be totally accurate, but I like to make each edition better than the one on which it was built. This helps me do it faster.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

The Hudson listing shows a 139 RAF Squadron in the Far East theater.
It is not in the CHS listing. Was this unit in the Pacific? If so, when and where?

Correct, No. 139 RAF was in FE flying Hudsons. Was dispatched from the ETO in Dec 1941, started operations in Burma in Feb 1942. Was absorbed by No. 62 RAF Squadron on 30th April 1942 after both squadrons had taken heavy lossen. No. 139 RAF was later reformed as a Pathfinder squadron equipped with Mosquitos (originally it was to receive Blenheim V) and fought over Germany for the rest of the war.

K

[Iron Duke]

Hi,

139 RAF in FE feb/mar 42 with Hudson III's
APR 42 Disbanded [ re named 62 sqdn RAF ]

62 RAF disbaned feb 42 [ merged with 1 Sqdn RAAF ]
62 RAF Reformed apr 42 at DUM DUM with Hudsom III's

ref RAF Squadrons . Jefford.

to slow !