When?

[WIF_Killzone]

Steve can join me in Jamaica if he likes--good coffee  [;)]
 
Craig

[bo]

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

Easy does it Bo, you may have an ammunition explosion. 

Seriously, it maybe a matter of scope (i.e., additional forms, and other added functionality (e.g., training videos) that were not in the original estimates, not to mention a superlative development approach) that is adding to the time.  The contract you mention is giving increased flexibity (for lack of a better word) to the end product, and perhaps this is welcomed by some if not most.

A different approach would certainly speed up the development albeit at the expensive of scope and quality, and most-likely budget although that is being managed with contract approach (which AGAIN, is why there is so much scope-quality).

However, with that said, perhaps as you mention, it is time to put a lid on "extras", and wrap up the product with the use of additional resources although at this point it may not be feasible vis-a-vis the learning curve?

I am sure this will be the product of the decade, if not the century, and most certainly for its genre. It may be worth your wait but I too feel your frustration of not yet getting to play

Good Lord Killzone I hope so, I dont remember saying put a lid on the extas but then I am getting senile waiting for this game.

BO

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo

I knew I should not have come back, Steve I am not upset with you how could I be you are the most open programmer I have ever seen on the forums anywhere, but why should you get a free pass you took on this job not me, my complaint is that you should have got more help and if this coding for this game is so difficult then you should have gone to Matrix and got the best programmers around to assist you, I dont care about contracts with you and Matrix thats your problem not mine, not being mean Steve but these people on this forum [not me] are the most patient, kind and considerate group you will find anywhere in cyber land and they dont deserve this 5 or 6 year wait, I stopped posting when I asked you not to give completion dates but you went ahead anyway with dates that could not be met and you knew it, and if the people here can find anything I am saying is incorrect fine go to it, I truly hope for the sake of everyone here you will be able to complete this game bugs and all sometime next year but I have my doubts and I refuse to stick my head in the sand waiting for this to happen.

Bo

There are no other viable options other then to wait until it is completed. Not to be mean, but your posts which are from someone who admits a lack of understanding of programming actually are humerous to people who understand the difficulties.

I know you want it completed faster than it is being done, but that opinion/desire is not the reality the project is in.

Yes, you have a right to WHINE, but please don't mistake that for being a positive benefit to the project when you do.

Whining is for children Flipper I am an adult even though I might act like a child sometimes and I have had 5 years of trying to be positive.

Bo

[bo]

I am not going to cave in to you people protecting matrix, I know that saying do the programing right the first time was off the wall and I got bashed for it deserved or not, you people seem to forget like some people in this country have forgotten 9/11, that this contract was signed I believe in 2004 thats 5 years ago at least and all this time to do this game is a lot of bull, oh people will come to the aid of poor old Matrix and tell us how hard it is to get this game right, I believe you take the stance you take is because there is nothing else you can do about it and you are stuck with it until its completed whenever that will be, normally I would join that kind of thinking but my patience ran out when the Nov. finish date was postoned to whenever, sorry for my impertinace but I am who I am and common sense says this time delay is going on forever. Show me some light at the end of this dark tunnel and I will apoligize to everyone for my ornery nature.

Bo

[PzB74]

After following this forum for some time I admire the work and effort being put into this game!
I also notice that the challenge to produce such a giant game with so few resources is taking it's toll.

Because of this and the continued delays and sometimes mounting frustrations I think it is important to openly discuss the challenges and expectations.

As an outsider my impression is that criticism is usually met with little tollerance and even condemnation.
- The bigger the challenge the bigger the need for constructive criticims. Some it may not be relevant or "fair", but there is also a lot of valuable input that should be considered and evaluated.

Keep up the good work - and have an open mindset to all forms of criticism, negative and positive alike!

[Skanvak]

I don't critized Steve's work but Matrix approach. I see that some are dellusion by programming industry, that is their problem. But I get that getting in touch with the so-called community without completing the game is as wrong as the other option. Right now we have paople who just love to discuss this project and other waiting for it to be completed since about ten years. So not to get bored we just drop following this thread to come back and see that the addicted to never ending project have convince the one man that does everything (hopefully he had help on simple task and testing) to make change that displease us.

So yes, I prefer a team (which does not need to be the size given by WIF_Killzone). Hiring an help on a short time and specific devellopment contract could have been solution. Matrix chose to play safe, that is their choice, not the best, but the one they are more confortable with. I recknon that is not my money to risk but it not the choice that fit my goals so I don't agree with it. Every attempt to rationalize Matrix decision will not change this fact. At one time you should see that some of us are professionnal too and patronizing is surely not the best way to convince us.

Even if I do agree that a lot of things are to be added to the games, and that lots of things (color blind for ex...) are good (but may be not needed on release...), and that Steve is surely the best suited for the task, I still believe that adding a couple of people to the project (especially for developping the AI) would have save developpement time.

[WIF_Killzone]

I am sure there is certainly some low-hanging fruit that could be farmed out to others to complete. I'm not sure the AI is feasible for others to develop, but it could be.
 
What I struggle with in regards to all the recent (and good) comments on the subject; is it really our place to suggest how development should now proceed and Matrix and Steve's contract be amended to speed up delivery?
 
Assuming advice is welcomed on this touchy subject, then taking into account where the project is now (the past is the past) what feasible steps and agreements could Matrix and Steve agree upon to speed up development?
 
That will be difficult to answer ourselves as many of the remaining tasks, if giving to other people to deliver, will require Steve's time (perhaps in the area of 40-60%) to manage, perform knowledge transfer, etc. Some tasks may not be feasible to part-out as the knowledge transfer is too large with more of Steve's time consumed and the resultant benefit lost (or even adding time).
 
One approach to ascertain this would be to request of Steve that an "action plan gets prepared (by sitting down with Matrix) to use additional resources to address the remaining tasks".
 
I am not sure it's our place to request however. [:-]

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

To those of you who are criticizing the business aspects of this project, I would say this.
 
How much do you have invested in Matrix Games?
 
Until you are an investor, it is really none of your business.
 
If you don't like how this is being done, I suggest you form your own game company.  Show us you can do better.  We will buy your games if they are good.  Otherwise...
 
 

[Skanvak]

Until you are an investor, it is really none of your business.

Then neither yours to defend their choice. Thanks.

You know that this discution is not a debate as, like WIF_Killzone said the past is the past and like I said this is a matter on which we have no control (not being an investor, right). But as a costumer an a follower of the project since its very beginning I can express a my feeling on choice done, like you do by the way. Matrix and Steve will decide what they consider good for them on the matter in the end. We are just expressing our opinion, their can be no winner on argument.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

I knew I should not have come back, Steve I am not upset with you how could I be you are the most open programmer I have ever seen on the forums anywhere, but why should you get a free pass you took on this job not me, my complaint is that you should have got more help and if this coding for this game is so difficult then you should have gone to Matrix and got the best programmers around to assist you, I dont care about contracts with you and Matrix thats your problem not mine, not being mean Steve but these people on this forum [not me] are the most patient, kind and considerate group you will find anywhere in cyber land and they dont deserve this 5 or 6 year wait, I stopped posting when I asked you not to give completion dates but you went ahead anyway with dates that could not be met and you knew it, and if the people here can find anything I am saying is incorrect fine go to it, I truly hope for the sake of everyone here you will be able to complete this game bugs and all sometime next year but I have my doubts and I refuse to stick my head in the sand waiting for this to happen.

Bo

While we have to acknowledge that you are right that Steve didn't meet the dates, I think nobody expected exact accomplishing, after a work of almost 10 years (form the start of CWIF) or anyway, several years (4?) in MWIF itself.

However, if I read your text from the (possible, I am trying to empathize) point of view of the programmer, I might feel some general unjustified guilt. I hope it doesn't affect Steve trhis way, since the general feeling of the board is that we prefer a product bug-free (to a reasonable extent) that meeting exactly the dates.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Though Bo should learn how to write (no point and lack other things I don't know how to say in english made his text unreadable), I think he has a point, as winky51 told it : Matrix should have put a team on this game. I know, being a team manager in an other field, that when you want to speed up a process, putting more people always work in the long run.

Telling me that for budget reason they cannot put more people on this project is just a rationalization to accept things we have no control on.

You are right that the reasons why there is no more peole in the project are external to us, the fact is that when we come to the project we know about the Pharaonic work and that there is only a man after the code, so we knew from the beginning on its limits to face dalays that may happen.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: PzB

After following this forum for some time I admire the work and effort being put into this game!
I also notice that the challenge to produce such a giant game with so few resources is taking it's toll.

Because of this and the continued delays and sometimes mounting frustrations I think it is important to openly discuss the challenges and expectations.

As an outsider my impression is that criticism is usually met with little tollerance and even condemnation.
- The bigger the challenge the bigger the need for constructive criticims. Some it may not be relevant or "fair", but there is also a lot of valuable input that should be considered and evaluated.

Keep up the good work - and have an open mindset to all forms of criticism, negative and positive alike!

Agreed PzB I knew if I took a different stance I would be berated by a few here, all I was trying to do is get some of the more staunch admirers of the way Matrix handled this from the begining to wake up and smell the coffee and get their heads out of the sand, I know the past is the past and it should be let go, thats if we learn from the past.

Bo

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Until you are an investor, it is really none of your business.

Then neither yours to defend their choice. Thanks.

You know that this discution is not a debate as, like WIF_Killzone said the past is the past and like I said this is a matter on which we have no control (not being an investor, right). But as a costumer an a follower of the project since its very beginning I can express a my feeling on choice done, like you do by the way. Matrix and Steve will decide what they consider good for them on the matter in the end. We are just expressing our opinion, their can be no winner on argument.

Guess what?

If you can have an opinion and state it, so can I.

My opinions (as far as are germaine to this discussion) are as follows:

1) Second guessing those who are putting their time and money behind this project is inappropriate because those who have nothing invested have not likely done their due diligence and may not understand all of the ramifications of their advice.

2) While adding more programmers will shorten the duration of the project, it will also raise the total cost. That is to say, the reduction of the time frame will NOT be enough to offset the additional cost per month. Furthermore, it would not have been so EVEN IF the project would have been structured that way from the beginning. Adding programmers reduces time, but increases cost.

3) Because of the economic realities of #2 combined with the market share for these types of game being on the low side, NO MAINSTREAM GAME COMPANY WILL EVER TOUCH A GAME LIKE THIS. I, personally, am happy that Matrix is willing to adopt a non-standard business model to accomodate us.

4) The openness of the progress of the project to the public has resulted in two things:

4A) Great amounts of input making the product better in the long run.
4B) Great amounts of whining about WHEN WILL WE GET IT and I WANT IT NOW

4 continued) I applaud Steve for being so open about this project because I have seen the disasters that have come by not letting the end users have ANY input at all. (Ostensibly to avoid the pressure of 4B above.) A Notable example would be Sid Meier's Railroads! (not Railroad Tycoon 1, 2, or 3) - A GREAT game with just too many bugs... No doubt rushed out because the budget demanded it. Now a miserable failure never to be fixed or sequelled. How different might the sucess of that game been if, in fact, it had been given the time during final development to be polished and if the user community had a forum to discuss what needed to be tweaked.

Remember, the points above are my opinon.

There is much more detail in some previous posts in this thread.


Now to answer your remark.

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Until you are an investor, it is really none of your business.

Then neither yours to defend their choice. Thanks.

Actually, I feel that I have an OBLIGATION to defend them on the grounds that I believe in their methods. Think about the number of complainers....

* I want it now - no AI
* If it doesn't have AI, I wont buy it
* If it doesn't have PBEM, I won't buy it
* If it doesn't have TCP/IP, I won't buy it
* and so on

My position is that Matrix has the rights to the game, they can develop it any way they wish.

I like the way Steve is going about being open with the community.

I want to encourage Steve, Matrix, and other companies to develop with this openness in the future.

Therefore, I will defend them to balance the complaints.

[NeverMan]

I have just two questions (maybe one):

1. Is the coding of the game working off the CWiF code?
a. If so, WHY????

Time and time again it has been shown that it's much easier to start from stratch and do it right then it is to go off some crappy code some other guy has written. EiANW had this exact same problem and that game is a total disaster!!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

To those of you who are criticizing the business aspects of this project, I would say this.

How much do you have invested in Matrix Games?

Until you are an investor, it is really none of your business.

If you don't like how this is being done, I suggest you form your own game company.  Show us you can do better.  We will buy your games if they are good.  Otherwise...

Samuari I dont ever remember putting you down, always respected your opinion until now, are you referring to investing in Matrix's stock or are you referring to buying their games? If its their games I have paid enough for bad games here including TOW which I just bought, I am actually looking forward to this game even though I have never played the board game, I said once no AI no sale, but for the first time in my gaming life I have started to play PBEM in TOW and I like it, and I am willing to buy the game without a good AI or any AI if thats whats holding up this project. Of course this will hurt Matrix because I believe that most computer wargamers are of the solo nature and have to have an AI. The problem with the AI is no one and I mean no one has ever figured out how to do a good one, I just guess the technology is still far down the computer road.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: bo

I knew I should not have come back, Steve I am not upset with you how could I be you are the most open programmer I have ever seen on the forums anywhere, but why should you get a free pass you took on this job not me, my complaint is that you should have got more help and if this coding for this game is so difficult then you should have gone to Matrix and got the best programmers around to assist you, I dont care about contracts with you and Matrix thats your problem not mine, not being mean Steve but these people on this forum [not me] are the most patient, kind and considerate group you will find anywhere in cyber land and they dont deserve this 5 or 6 year wait, I stopped posting when I asked you not to give completion dates but you went ahead anyway with dates that could not be met and you knew it, and if the people here can find anything I am saying is incorrect fine go to it, I truly hope for the sake of everyone here you will be able to complete this game bugs and all sometime next year but I have my doubts and I refuse to stick my head in the sand waiting for this to happen.

Bo

While we have to acknowledge that you are right that Steve didn't meet the dates, I think nobody expected exact accomplishing, after a work of almost 10 years (form the start of CWIF) or anyway, several years (4?) in MWIF itself.

However, if I read your text from the (possible, I am trying to empathize) point of view of the programmer, I might feel some general unjustified guilt. I hope it doesn't affect Steve trhis way, since the general feeling of the board is that we prefer a product bug-free (to a reasonable extent) that meeting exactly the dates.

Again as always I cant argue with your thinking Jose because it is always one of tolerance and understanding, never harsh, my argument has always been and will be, do not announce dates of completion EVER! Thats what set me off the deep end, when its done its done period. What the hell is so terrible and stupid about that. [Not referring to you Jose.] That has been from the begining my most verbal argument and still is.

Bo

[WIF_Killzone]

I think SamuraiProgrammer most recent post on this subject sums it up for me to. Good post.
 
Bo, we'll have you convinced soon enough [;)]

[WIF_Killzone]

True and good comment about not specifying a completion date Bo. Probably good practice.
 
Although some broad dates would have to be given in a forum like this for the inquisitive and stubborn amongst us (me)--it would be hard to never tell the folks a date or timeframe, even if its like 2007-2012.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

I think SamuraiProgrammer most recent post on this subject sums it up for me to. Good post.

Bo, we'll have you convinced soon enough [;)]

Thanks for not jumping up and down my back for my opinions Killzone much appreciated and on your statement I do hope so[&o]

Bo

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

Bo,

I didn't mean to 'jump down your throat'. I realize now that the tone of my remark was likely to be interpreted that way. I aplogize.

I was trying to reiterate things I have posted before without quoting them verbatim. I am not making excuses... It was still wrong to be that abrupt.

I was referring to stock in the company but admittedly, the idea of frequent customers carrying some weight as pseudo-investors is truly something to be considered. I will ponder that.