Here come the Rebels! (Canoe v. Q-Ball)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

Awww....sniff...you say the nicest things. [:'(]

Well, yeah. I mean, you could have ministered to Kentucky Derby thouroughbreds, but instead you chose to stick your hand up chicken poopers. You need all the strokes you can get. [:)]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: kfsgo


In my head I've been playing with the idea of a 'randomized' scenario - randomized in the sense that a list is drawn up with (250, 500, 1000, 2000, whatever) things that might conceivably have been done differently, anywhere from 'single infantry batallion added to X location' to 'half of all carriers initially on map never even built', Y number of which then get picked off a list and committed to an individual .scen file. It'd certainly make for some tense moments in trying to figure out what you're actually up against, but it'd have the potential to mess up someone's plans something fierce, particularly for the Japanese if they get a bad initial hand, so I'm not sure anyone'd play it.

Probably implied by your idea, but I like this with the added twist of a dungeon master, a third party who does the draw and alters the scenario with neither player knowing what was changed. Could be very challenging depending on the lists and draw count.

[kfsgo]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Probably implied by your idea, but I like this with the added twist of a dungeon master, a third party who does the draw and alters the scenario with neither player knowing what was changed. Could be very challenging depending on the lists and draw count.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking of - I think you'd have to give each side an overview of what's changed on their end, and then changes to the other guy would be reported, hinted at, guessed (significant chance wrongly) or unknown depending on their importance/visibility. I've actually started building a 'container' scenario based off #1 using slots for stuff in the middle of nowhere but it'll be long time if it ever sees the light of day.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: kfsgo

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


Probably implied by your idea, but I like this with the added twist of a dungeon master, a third party who does the draw and alters the scenario with neither player knowing what was changed. Could be very challenging depending on the lists and draw count.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking of - I think you'd have to give each side an overview of what's changed on their end, and then changes to the other guy would be reported, hinted at, guessed (significant chance wrongly) or unknown depending on their importance/visibility. I've actually started building a 'container' scenario based off #1 using slots for stuff in the middle of nowhere but it'll be long time if it ever sees the light of day.

Me Cro-Magnon. Me no want know other guy's. Me lie him about mine. Ugg. Much fun. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It takes a bit of an odd wargaming duck (maybe?) to really groove on playing the Japanese. Mental gymnastics. I think these folks are advanced beings, secure in their worldview, etc., but they're more rare than cro-magnons like me who want to just win the darn game, without the Zen.

Awww....sniff...you say the nicest things. [:'(]

Well, yeah. I mean, you could have ministered to Kentucky Derby thouroughbreds, but instead you chose to stick your hand up chicken poopers. You need all the strokes you can get. [:)]

It's mostly turkeys here in Minnesota, Mr. Moose. Also, I can tell you with certainty that either chicken or turkey is better tasting than horse, although the Kazahks do a pretty decent steak out of the latter. Finally figured out a good use for those things...

[Cribtop]

I like playing Japan because there is more glory to be had as the underdog, even if eventual defeat is inevitable. That said, this is a uniquely interesting period to me. Not sure how many games I'd play where victory in the traditional sense is impossible.

PS WITPQS, thanks for the compliment. I guess I still consider myself a newb because I only have a few months of PBEM under my belt.

[pws1225]

ORIGINAL: JeffK

ORIGINAL: pws1225

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


A bunch of 2004ers, the old guard, are leaving. I know there have always been noobs, but it seems like the current crop not only don't read, they can barely write. Or use capital letters where required. I'm fine helping a guy who is overwhelmed and needs a push, or a manual cite, but I'm not going to write essays for people who don't read the manual and jump into a GC, only to come here on Turn 2 and ask "What should I do with my merchant boats?' Well, merchant with them. Duh.

Now, now Mr. Moose, with all due respect, as a self-appointed spokesman for the noobie community, I must take exception with your generalization that the current crop of noobs are lazy, non-reading, barely-writing, non-capital-letter-using slackers. Rather, we are much like you probably were 10-15 years ago, struggling to get our arms around an immense game deep in detail and mouse clicks. We are learning a very complex game with minimal documentation. The manual is, at best, a handbook of the rules, not a "how to play the game" tutorial. It could never be that because of the complexity of the game, and we understand that. Instead, this forum is our source of that knowledge. It's much like a culture with an oral tradition where knowledge is passed on by word of mouth. While we may ask our questions unartfully, if the culture is to survive, you must try to be patient and help us learn its finer points. Without that patience, this culture will surely wither away.

Note: In deference to the Moose's sensibilities, I have attempted to spell check this missive and capitalize everything that looked important enough to warrant the effort.

But back then we were all newbies, so we didnt know the difference. Now you stick out like a twin 6' turret on the Juneau!

[:'(]

At my age, I'm proud if anything sticks out. [:D]

[JeffroK]

Thats below the belt,   

Or cant you see that far!![:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It's mostly turkeys here in Minnesota, Mr. Moose.

So, Chickenboy is semantically better than Turkeyboy?

The World Wonders. [:)]

(And without horses there'd be no Mr. Ed, and what a world would that be, Wilbur?)

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It's mostly turkeys here in Minnesota, Mr. Moose.

So, Chickenboy is semantically better than Turkeyboy?

The World Wonders. [:)]
(And without horses there'd be no Mr. Ed, and what a world would that be, Wilbur?)

Turkey trot past the water

[JohnDillworth]

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

When I first reading this, I thought, "No that couldn't be true; afterall, AE is just barely a year old". Then I coonsidered that while that is true, most PC games do not have a life span of more than eighteen to twenty-four months. Even though AE is a new release the system itself is aging. At its core is the same GG system that UV was built on. Certainly Matrix has done a great job keeping the games updated and fresh, but the truth is that some of the warts UV had are still present on AE. Many of the combat systems work just fine, but the hard core historians among us know that some of them are highly abstracted and not very realistic. I am not complaining her just pointing out that AE is far from a perfect game. In fairness to Matrix, the costs in changing a really good game into a perfect game are probably beyond anyone's means.
People joke about WiTP 2, but we know that isn't going to happen. The necessary programmer investment would probably make the game cost over $200. There are just too few of us hard core grognards with interest in such a monster game.

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

[Canoerebel]

11/18/42

Once again I must interrupt the New and Improved Eclectic Thread to post about the war, but I will add a few comments at the end:

Wake Island: The Wake invasion force is just nine hexes away. No signs of detection. I'm hoping the transports will steam far enough to permit D-Day the day after tomorrow; if not, though, it will be two days after tomorrow (since I'm using xAK, xAP, and AP, I've got to make sure I land the maximum amount the first day). The bombardment TF should go in day after tomorrow no matter what. The CVEs are trailing somewhat as I am counting on speed and surprise to get me to Wake, then I'll risk the CVEs to provide some CAP for a day or two. If I achieve surprise and also take Wake as planned, I will extract ships as quickly as possible. If I'm blundering into an ambush...well....

Marcus Island: The TFs are probably four days out. No signs of detection. I'm still evaluating this operation on the fly. I have little at risk, so I'm leaning towards "go" if the Wake invasion succeeds.

Wotje: The empty transport TF should arrive within five or six hexes of Wotje tomorrow. No signs of detection.

Noumea: I have flankers out all over the place, pretty much sandwiching New Caledonia and the New Hebrides. No signs of enemy ships except subs. A sudden boost in aircraft at Luganville is promising since I'm hoping to draw Brad's attention here. Shipping at Norfolk Island was detected, but not the main armada (NNE of Auckland) nor any of the picket ships. B-17s from Nadi and Suva to hit Noumea tomorrow. I am very nervous about an ambush, but think I've put out enough pickets to handle matters (***fingers crossed***).

Oz: The vanguard armored unit will reach the hex SW of Daly Waters as soon as tomorrow. This should alert Brad (if he's even looking at the map these days) that something's up in Oz. The infantry and base forces are two hexes E of Daly Waters and should reach the adjacent hex in about two days.

India: The Allies took a vacant base in the south (Bellary) and evicted a naval guard unit from a base in the northeast. Recon of Trincomalee and Calcutta begin tomorrow. South India is totally vacant except for the two remaining isolated IJA stacks. Not sure about Ceylon, but I think Brad has vacated as he won't want to risk shipping under what will soon be a very stout Allied air umbrella. I suspect Calcutta and region have been or will be vacated. Another vanguard Allied armored unit just corssed the big river (Ganges?) east of Calcutta and will sniff defenses around Dacca in a day or two. The collapse of the Japanese in India was sudden and total. Brad did a good job of extracting most of his army, but what a remarkable turn of events.

AE and WitE: AE is waxing old and does suffer from some warts that suggest it won't have an unlimited shelf life. But it is a magnificent game that I think will outlast WitE. I also believe somebody somewhere will come up with a Pacific War game that will improve on AE at some point. In societies where people are free and rewarded for innovation, they will follow their interests in doing cool stuff. I expect Matrix or some of its folks to undertake a "from the ground up" version of Pacific War once they are satisfied that AE has run out of gas. There is no way that AE is the end of the line.

[vettim89]

Very surprising on the detection levels here. Perhaps he only has shorter range float planes on Wake and Marcus. A little more surprised there aren't some LR a/c searching south of New Caledonia

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

I'm just seeing a local trend. It isn't continental drift--yet--but it's a trend. I know most of us don't want to think of a time when AE is dead and buried along with this forum, but it's inevitable. What were you playing 15 years ago? I haven't visited a "Wing Commnader" forum in awhile.

I was a regular in the Jutland forums until the day I started to play this. I guess all good things come to an end. I suspect this will be around for a bit though.

When I first reading this, I thought, "No that couldn't be true; afterall, AE is just barely a year old". Then I coonsidered that while that is true, most PC games do not have a life span of more than eighteen to twenty-four months. Even though AE is a new release the system itself is aging. At its core is the same GG system that UV was built on. Certainly Matrix has done a great job keeping the games updated and fresh, but the truth is that some of the warts UV had are still present on AE. Many of the combat systems work just fine, but the hard core historians among us know that some of them are highly abstracted and not very realistic. I am not complaining her just pointing out that AE is far from a perfect game. In fairness to Matrix, the costs in changing a really good game into a perfect game are probably beyond anyone's means.
People joke about WiTP 2, but we know that isn't going to happen. The necessary programmer investment would probably make the game cost over $200. There are just too few of us hard core grognards with interest in such a monster game.

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

Well, you have a good point. The time I need to devote to my two campaigns has pretty much thrown all of my other computer wargaming out of the window. I am addicted to the game but resent the demands of it. Then a shiney new product come out such as WITE and then many players are torn between the time needed to play their current commitments to the attraction of a promising new game. WITE looks good but I have not bought it because I just don't want to sacrifice AE time and I know it would. QBall is a good example but who's to blame him.

Computer wargaming has always been this way. You get a loyal following for a great game until the next new (and admittedly usually better) game comes out and a goodly portion of players just dissapear in mid game took take up the grail for the new game. It happens all the time.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

It's mostly turkeys here in Minnesota, Mr. Moose.

So, Chickenboy is semantically better than Turkeyboy?

The World Wonders. [:)]
(And without horses there'd be no Mr. Ed, and what a world would that be, Wilbur?)

Turkey trot past the water

I knew someone in this crowd would get it. [:)]

[Canoerebel]

I'm nine hexes from Wake Island...and my opponent has been in the WitE threads all day, posting to his AAR and, I assume, playing the game. Not a peep out of him - no turns, no "hey, I can't do one today." Just silence.

I won't contact him today as I've been riding him pretty hard, but this is agonizing.

I just hope his non-interest is a reliable indicator that he doesn't know what's coming.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

At the risk of speaking sacrilege, maybe AE is too much. Maybe there is a line where the depth of detail becomes more than most people want to deal with and AE crossed that.

I've been think along these lines too, as I try to stand in Matrix management's shoes. One reason I'm watching WitE very carefully, as I'm sure they are.

I would predict right now that there WILL be a WITP2. I predict it will be done by a paid team, from a clean chassis. Windows API, etc.

I also predict it will have one-week turns, no pilot training, resolutions not to the squad, bullet, shell, torpedo level. It will have more political elements, produciton planning by both sides, a powerful editor, and a new AI system built around a hybrid script and analytical engine using multi-core threading. It will have about the same level of graphics, perhaps a few more combat anims, better sound, but less number crunching by the player.

Did I mention one-week turns? A whole different experience for PBEM. Still a significant time investment, but whole games possible in a single summer or winter life-phase. Planning will be by campaign rather than individual ship and LCU. Base and aviation support will be more abstract.

I don't think there will ever be another Matrix game with AE's scope, granularirty, and grognard attention to device details. But there will be another PTO-wide mega-game, and I predict that will happen by 2018. Price point will be around $99.99 USD.

[Capt. Harlock]

Perhaps there is a way to manipulate the base point system to change that parameter. Basically the Japanese player's only hope for victory is to either A. win a huge naval victory and/or B. seize significant territory beyond what was accomplished historically. I am saying why not alter the base points so that the Japanese player comes dangerously close to Autovictory by merely achieving the RL expansion. Then just a couple of major grabs outside of that famous red shaded map we have all seen = a win. If this was done correctly, the threat would continue all the way to the end of the war by making the central bases like the Marianas and PI worth oodles of points and far outposts worth very little. The trick would be to make it attainable but far from automatic. In my mind a game where the Japan player doesn't have to conquer all of India or Australia or take PH to have any hope of winning is a better game.

I have argued on several occasions that there is one and only one realistic way for the Japanese to win -- by *not* doing the Pearl Harbor raid. Instead, on the first turn, they should invade bases belonging to the Dutch East Indies only. (The idea being that they have permission from the occupied Dutch government, courtesy of the alliance with Germany.) America and Britain would then declare war on Japan, allowing the Japanese to argue that the Allies are the aggressors. This would have greatly reduced both the speed and the scale of mobilization politically possible to the USA. (During the war, America was for all practical purposes a centrally-directed socialist economy.) And the Japanese would still have strategic surprise: the eight Pearl battlewagons were too slow to be useful to stop the Japanese advance.

Anyone willing to generate that scenario?

[Canoerebel]

11/19/42

CenPac: Wow, still quiet in CenPac. The Wake invasion force is two hexes away and goes in tomorrow. No sign of any detection by the enemy. The invasion begins with bombardment led by BB South Dakota. Three CVE will take station two hexes NW. One DD will take station two hexes south. The transports are close enough to arrive and get a full day of unloading, so now the only question is whether I have enough and can unloading them quickly enough to take the base. I have 500+ AV, though not all will come ashore on the first day even though I've used a fair number of AP and APD in addition to xAP. To the NW, the Marcus group is sailing quietly and apparently undetected, just fifteen hexes from that base. Tomorrow should be an exciting day.

Noumea: I'm pulling back my carriers a few hexes towards the northern cape of New Zealand while monitoring the events in CenPac. If the KB shows up far away from SoPac, I'll proceed with the invasion. Flankers and picket ships are all over the place with no apparent detection. B-17s hit Noumea's airfield in solid numbers. I'm not positive, but I think Brad is focusing on this region as the chief threat.

Oz: The infantry and base forces will arrive a hex from Daly Waters tomorrow or the day after. At that point, the armored unit will move between Daly Waters and Katherine. I don't have enough supply to really threaten the Japanese here, but I want to rattle my saber and appear ominious.

India: The Allies reclaimed Hyderabad and another vacant base. The fullscale Japanese retreat continues.

I can't wait to see what happens tomorrow, but I will probalby have to wait at least 24 hours, maybe 36, if my opponent keeps up his new-and-improved WitE schedule.