Vietnam War AAR

[Grymme]

Overview - Round 28

Its been a while since i posted here. Lets see what i remember. I made my final offensive against Hue. During the US ARVN round they have been bombing my forces as much as possible around Hue to try and slow down the assault. A lot of the assualting forces take large casualties.

[Grymme]

Hue province - Round 28

[Grymme]

Cambodian border - Round 28

Nothing much happens around Ban Me thuot or Pleikku provinces. So i will not publish pictures from there.

[Lunaticus_matrixforum]

US turn 28:
The engineers in Hue did their job and held against a series of concentric attacks. Now we hit back: The 7th fleet bombards the coast, we move in some artillery from Quang Tri and our airforce does the usual mass bombing campaign. This very much eliminates most of the attackers. We also airlift in the 1st Airborne Cavalry from Pleiku to bolster the defenses. They come a bit but not too late. With the arrival of the 1st Air Cavalry Hue is very well protected against further raids. The engineers can switch back to reconstruct Hue.



For US all other fronts are very quiet. There are rumour of clashes between Charly and Cambodia but then we do not worry too much about infighting of the locals ...

[Grymme]

Round 29 - The endgame

The scenario lasted until round 35. But me and Lunaticus decided to end the AAR somewhere around here. As might be expected he beat back my offensive against Hue. After that he slowly beat me back for 5-7 round untill he captured Khe Sanh and i forfeited the game. I also got a lot of trouble from the Laoitians who at one point cut of all my forces in south vietnam from north vietnam.

It was a really fun game. when i read the AAR it looks like the game was really static, but that wasnt how it felt at the time. There was some small balancing issues though. The Strategic bombing event turned out to be a little to strong, and the game balance couldnt really handle that the guerilla had no aircraft.

After the end of the game some changes were made, most prominently.
- Strategic bombing event reduced.
- Added some more reinforcments to both sides but mostly to north vietnam.
- Supply cost of aircraft increased.
- Gave machineguns a small AA value.
- Made AA a little better in neighbouring hexes.

Will most likely play a rematch with Lunaticus with me as the US/ARVN player. Or maybe against someone else.

[Lunaticus_matrixforum]

US turn 32:
This is the final screenshot. South Vietnamese forces after a careful assault with strong bombing support from US tactical bombers liberate Khe Sanh.
After having lost its last foothold in the South the North Vietnamese retreat and the war ends with a two-state-solution ... for the time being.

[Lunaticus_matrixforum]

Overall I very much liked the scenario. It plays rather different from other scenarios and very nicely portraits the asymmetric nature of the combatants. It took me 10 turns to understand how a US strategy might look like and that it is impossible to win if playing only a ground war as the North Vietnamese have too many units and they move much too fast through the jungle and other terrain. So airpower - massive airpower - is the only way to go. It took a long time till I managed to advance and I was never sure if not some counterattack in the South or Center would throw me back 10+ turns...

Some quick thoughts on this very playable scenario:
- The US Navy is not up to it. They are nice for bombing but they do not seem able to patrol the sea area. In the end this did not bother me so much as I simply flew in all units from Guam but it does seem a bit unrealistic to me.
- US airpower in the end felt very very strong which was nice but maybe a bit unbalancing. Especially with the huge radius this is deadly. Maybe tacbombers need to get some extra penalty for jungle?
- I feel that the research tree is too expensive to be usable. This is ok from a historical perspective probably, but from a gaming perspective it is a bit ... a pity. Also as US I did not feel any need to invade the neighbouring countries...
Maybe somebody with more historical knowledge then me can comment on these?

[Grymme]

Glad you liked the game. A couple of comments.

- I do think the navy would be up to it. But we will see in the rematch. I will use my navy differently than you did and hopefulle be more successfull. Also i think i will go for more Air/navy coordination.
- I agree that the US airforce was a little to strong. In the new scenario supplycost of airforce is bigger.
- As for the research. You might be right. I generally put in a hefty price for research in modern scenarios. The exception is the Afghanistan scenario where i replaced all SFTs.

Hopefully you will kick my ass in the rematch (where you play North Vietnam) and prove that the scenario is balanced.

[Grymme]

Game II

Game 2 has started. I am not going on and making a complete AAR on this second game. But still think it could be fun to post some comments on the second game in this thread.

Nothing much happened in round 1. The FNL guerilla bombed Quang Tri in south vietnam and took Kontum. But thats a given since it was not defended. Moved my Engineer brigade towards Quang Tri to repair it. Reinforced Khe Sanh. 3rd Marines landed in Da Nang.

[springer]

Grymme,
 
My impression is that part of the purpose of this AAR is to show off what the scenario can do.  Based on what you have written, you've done a great job extending the AT engine to the Vietnam war.  I'm impressed also with how well you've modeled the asymmetry of combat capacity.
 
Though it's a lot of work, I think it'd be a good idea to still do an AAR.  Maybe you don't need to record every turn.  However, if you are showing off the scenario's strengths, it's important to see how it works.
 
The potential weakness of this scenario, as I see it, is something that you noted in the AAR:  It's apparent static nature.  As mentioned by both of you, it didn't feel static when playing it. The combat was dynamic and complex.  But my question would be: is the strategic situation defined by the scenario itself relatively static? 
 
That is, will the major fights play out more or less the same each game (e.g., Khe Sanh, Rash Gia, Pleikku).  The danger of the game, looking at the map is that the major combat zones will be fairly scripted.  
 
In my opinion, this is what makes most of the Barbarossa games somewhat dull at the beginning.  The opening moves are fairly set piece.  The interesting action usually takes up to midgame when the players have pushed deep into Russia.  In these midgames, there are a large number of possible force configurations due to the depth of the Russian European landscape.
 
The issue I see with this scenario is that the area of action doesn't have the depth that opens up deployment possibillities.  (From what I could tell, the furthest city from the coast is about 13-14 hexes.)  This means that the battle of the fronts risk taking on similar gestalts each time and that could limit the game's replay value. It'd be nice to get a sense of how the midgame could differ from what game to the next.
 
I'd be interested in second AAR to see if the actual campaigns (north, south, center) in the scenario play out with a different feel.
 
Again, I can appreciate the mega-hours that went into making praiseworthy scenario with the feel of a simulation.  But I think another (perhaps less dense) AAR would give us a better sense of the scenario's actual flexibility. 
 
(But then, I'm not the one doing the work [;)])

[Grymme]

Hi Springer. Welcome to the game/forum. Are you new to the game or have you been playing long?

I think your post has a lot of valid points. First i will say. I think the scenario does not manage to portray things like the iron triange (a guerilla stronghold quite close to Saigon). The scale of the scenario (on second thoughts i would have made it much larger) and the game engine has its limit. So i do think it will be difficult to recreat something like the tet offensive. I am not sure, it might be that it will remain static, but i hope not.

That being said i do think there is much more potential than the first AAR showed. The closeness between the sea and the border is one thing. But there is also the Cambodia/Laos territory. In this first AAR the NVA/FNL troops in Cambodia/Laos gwere pinned down more or less the whole time by government troops which prevented any movement on that border. Since then i made the Pathet Lao/Khmer Rouge a little stronger so that they would hold their own against their government forces. Also i made roadbuilding much to expensive which prevented the emergence of the Ho chi minh trail. A succesfull guerilla strategy in Laos could bring the war to different theatres like the northern part of the delta and also revitalize the fight in the delta.

Also a lot of things were added since the first AAR to help the supply of the FNL in the south. There will still be need to transfer all heavy equipment through Ho Chi Minh Trail and/or sea smuggling. But the forces in the south should be better equipt to handle themselves. Also there is a couple of new events that in some degree bring the war to the north vietnam. US support of the Montagnard rebels for example.

Also i should point out that the AAR is but a fragment of what really happened in the game. There was a lot of ship smuggling, fights between Pathet Lao and Laos in the north and bombing campaigns that were not shown for different reasons.

If you are interested in getting the scenario you can get it through my homepage.


I marked major areas of fighting in the scenario with red.. Hopefully, if things go better for the FNL/NVA there would also be other areas of fighting.
 

[Grymme]

I forgot to mention another significant change. In the new version local FNL battalions get recruited from territory occupied by the FNL/NVA not from territory occupied by US/ARVN. This should give the FNL/NVA incentive to occupy as many hexes as possible in South Vietnam. And it also gives the US/ARVN reason to take back any hex. Since the chance of guerillas appearing increase drasticly with the number of hexes occupied.
 
I am trying out this change because it felt more natural. But it should also (i hope) spread the war around a little.

[springer]

Hey Grymme,
I'm a fairly dedicated grognard. I've been keeping up with Victor's games since the early days of People's Tactics.
I tend to lurk a lot more than post.  But I wanted to let you know that you do have an audience here, and it's probably larger than you think.
 
The AAR here is interesting, and it's great to see all the detail you've put into making this game feel complex and "modern". 
 
Keep on with a great AAR, part II!

[Grymme]

Thanks Springer. Always nice to be appreciated.

Round II - Second game

FNL blasts a bomb in Hue. Seems lunaticus is enjoying his guerilla tactics. Not much movement. But i can feel the enemy is closing in on Ban Me Thuot. The western road is cut of.

Air scouting discover a FNL battalion in the delta. Bombardment yields light losses. Also a FNL regiment is discovered south of Ban Me Thuot. Bombardment here also yields light losses.

Production this turn focused on riflemen, PPs, military advisors and a tactical bomber. Next round will be engineers, riflemen and a tactical bomber.

Some "secret" naval action is initiated.

[Grymme]

Round III - Game II

FNL blasts a second bomb in Hue and a uprising begins in the coastal city of Quai Nhon south of Da Nang. The FNL guerilla takes over the city. Fortunatly the 7th fleet is near and the guerilla takes heavy aerial damage. US special forces move in to scout the forces of the enemy.

Guerillas south of Ban Me Thuot also suffer slight losses from aerial bombardment.

In the delta the 4th marines move in on the rebels.

Production still focuses on engineers, with a tank and some machineguns also.

[bwheatley]

Hi Grymme,

When are you going to put the scenarios into AT repo? I really want to play it but i don't know if i want to have to donate to paypal to play it.
We should be making games and scenarios for the fun of it I mean if there is no other choice then to pay to play i suppose i'll pay even though begrudgingly. I think if we don't put these good scens out for free it doesn't do anything but hurt the AT community. But you have motivated me to finish up my red dawn scen. I had to actually just link to the files because vic has a cap on the size of the scen uploads.

[bwheatley]

well $3 bucks sent hooks me up with the scen.

[Jeffrey H.]

I think he's travelling in Italy right now.

[Grymme]

Bwheatly. Well i understand you, and in many ways i agree with you. On the other hand i spent a large part of my spare time for the last year creating scenarios. I also spend a lot of money on the scenarios i create. But i still create scenarios i upload for free. The Punic War scenario for example i uploaded for free. And the Battle of lake Trasimere (although the latter is miniscule). I wanted to take it to the next step and to challenge myself to see what i could do. Also i have for a long time wanted to put up my own website.

The handfull of people who have downloaded some scenarios arent exactly footing the bills for them so far. It doesnt really help that i create scenarios mainly on really obscure wars (war of the triple alliance someone?). ThePunic War scenario was also somewhat of a test since i was thinking that if people would just for the heck of it donate a $ or 2 i could put up more scenarios for free the same way. So far it hasnt exactly been a gold mine.

I still hope you will enjoy the scenario. Actually i will send you most of them. Since try to spread the word around with them.

However i am in Italy right now. I will be back late tomorrow. Will send them then (or day after) as long as i get your email. Have a lot of emailspace on your email (some people have had trouble recieving the files.

Thats enough of my ranting for now.

Grymme

[Grymme]

Well. No surprise Lunaticus killed me in the second game as well. My US/ARVN government fell faster than a house of straw. Think the game lasted 12 rounds or something like that.

Made a small update to the scenario. To prevent a somewhat gamey(unhistorical) NVA tactic of conquering Laos entirely i created an political pressure event to dissuade this.


NVA pressence in central Laos
For each turn that NVA forces are larger than 150 powerpoints in central Laos the US/ARVN recieve 10OPPs because of international pressure as the Lao government is threatened. The aproximate borders of central Laos is marked with red dots.

Also increased range of helicopters a little, they felt to weak.

Briefing updated accordingly

Anyone who has the scenario and want the new upload can contact me and ill send it to them. (although i will be on vacation away from computers for a week). Latest version will be vw80b