New AAR - but not as good as Snigbert's

[IChristie]

In many games, when the CV is sunk or damaged, but the units are in the air, the squadron is likewise considered "lost." How is this handled in UV?

a/c seem to be able to transfer to bases or other CV's within range. Not sure if this is only a/c in the air or whether there is a provision for emergency ops to get them off the carrier. Most of the time this has happened to me (like the Coral sea battle in June) I have been in the process of exchanging strikes with the AI so it is entirely possible that the a/c were still in the air and were diverted en-route.

Near as I can tell, flotation damage seems to be the critical factor. As soon as any flotation damage is sustained air ops become impossible. This would seem to be realistic.

? Also, you mentioned that it appears float recons can be forward staged where support may not be available, conduct a mission, then return to a supported base. Does this mean that there are not necessarily allocated support units specific to squadrons?

Support is allocated to base force units that stay at a particular base. Any a/c at that base can make use of it. This makes a/c quite mobile as they can operate in the same turn they transfer so when a juicy target shows up you can concentrate air groups quickly to take it on. I don't know if they suffer reduced effective ness because of the transfer.

You can operate from bases without any support (or without adequate support) the main impact is non-operational losses. If you operate without any support then no repairs will occur. This means the the number of available a/c drops quickly, but more perniciously, the damaged ones cannot be recovered until they are repaired. If you operate with poor support they rate at which a/c are repaired just drops.

[IChristie]

With all the detail we've seen in your reports, how long does it take to process a turn?

I have typically been managing about to play about 7 to 10 turns in approximately 2 to 3 hours. That includes time to stop and take notes for the AAR's of course.

I checked the first post - it was 8 days ago and I have played almost 3 months - playing between 2 and 4 hours a night.

[IanLister]

Reading the discussion reminds me of the Japanese plan for Leyte Gulf involving Ozawa's TF as a decoy. Even if using the damaged carriers doesn't help that much (and it seems to me, Iain, your plan to use them in the way you suggest is a good one) it might be realistic in terms of what the Japanese high command would do. Just remember the effect on TF34 of Ozawa's carriers.......you might get some similar kind of benefit that allows the ultimate goal to be reached. If it doesn't work, die with the great satisfaction of knowing you did it the Imperial way!

Bear in mind however, I could just be spouting the trash of one who is sitting in his study thousands of miles away getting more impatient by the minute. I can't even get off the forum cos people keep posting new items to read!!!!!!

[IChristie]

Bear in mind however, I could just be spouting the trash of one who is sitting in his study thousands of miles away getting more impatient by the minute

And how would that make me any different than any other field commander reporting to the high command

[madflava13]

Raverdave -
I'm still at work, but here's some prelim info on subs:
The modern US subs (Gatos, etc.) had a combat patrol time of about 45 days. This includes transit time, so more like 30 days in the combat zone for most patrols. That number should be higher in UV because the distances aren't so great.
The S class and older subs have a patrol time of about 30 days, more like 20 with transit... They're old, leaky, slow, and can't dive very deep - not too effective, although the S-39 did put the Kako (Jap CA) down off Kavieng following the Savo Island debacle. The funny thing is the S's used the mk. 10 torp which, although older, was not plagued by the same probs as the new-fangled Mk. 14s. If the S could get in position, it often had a better shot of putting a ship down...

Japanese subs were not as standardized - many more flavors, from giant float plane carrying subs like the I-25, which had a 14,000 mile radius and logged at least one mission I know of that lasted around 2 months. The other end of the spectrum (ignoring midgets) is the RO types. These were coastal subs, similar in size to the S class - mostly more modern though. They had ranges about the same as well - 20-30 days at sea.

I'll get more specific data when I get home, but this should help for now.
Also, I came across an interesting site today which is still being completed. It doesn't have a lot of info, but some of the tidbits are interesting, if only in an anecdotal way.
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/japsubs/japsubs.htm

[IChristie]

The funny thing is the S's used the mk. 10 torp which, although older, was not plagued by the same probs as the new-fangled Mk. 14s. If the S could get in position, it often had a better shot of putting a ship down..

I'm pretty sure that almost all of my losses to US Subs have been to S class boats

[madflava13]

Iain,
Any sense as to how many of those S boats were sunk in return by your escorts? I'd wager a good number. They were basically antiques by the time WW2 kicked off, so their odds of escaping most concerted anti-sub efforts were slim...

Out of curiosity, do you see the AI's subs making any meaningful efforts against you, or are they more of a nuisance? In Pacwar I remember the AI was pretty laughable in its placement and utilization of subs.

[IChristie]

A significant number of the S-Class subs did not survive their encounters.

It's hard to tell about the AI's sub warfare since I usually don't see them unless they attack something - In which case the AI looks quite smart!'

The US subs have probably been averaging about one successful attack a week or so - not bad really.

In one case a sub torpedoed the Zuiho and then followed the TF trading shots with the escorts for 3 nights until it was finally sunk of Shortland I.

[madflava13]

That attack you describe is persistance to the point of stupidity... Doesn't sound too historical though - Most times subs had one shot at major fleet units because they simply did not have the speed to keep up with them. Either sink them or hurt them badly enough to finish them off, otherwise no chance...

In other news: A matrix chat would be a great idea for this campaign of yours! We could really brainstorm then...

[Joel Billings]

Maybe the Zuiho was going 5 knots (then again, maybe the game isn't perfect). Just checked the database, you guys are good. The S class carries MK10's which we have rated with a 10% dud rate. Other US subs at that time carry the Mk14 with an 80% dud rate. The game does model the weaker defensive abilities of the S class, so they do tend to take their lumps.


As for the issues of carrier aircraft, here are the rules:

(18.5) planes on a ship may not fly if the ship’s combined system damage and floatation damage are greater than 50%. They may transfer off the ship if docked or at anchor at a base with an airfield with a size of at least 1 (they are assumed to have been manually unloaded and taken to the airfield).

11.17 Emergency Landings

Planes attempting to return to a carrier that has been damaged sufficiently to prevent aircraft operations, will instead attempt to land at another carrier or airfield that is within its remaining range. Planes won’t make an emergency landing on another carrier in such a way as to cause it to exceed 110% of the carrier’s aircraft capacity.

[madflava13]

Joel -
I wasn't implying a problem with the game when I mentioned the persistant attack - I don't know the specifics of the attack and the CV may very well have been limping home. I certainly can't critcize until I have played the sucker...

I'm glad to see the torpedoes modeled in such a manner, even though that severely handicaps the US subs - as was 100% historical.

Oh, I've got another random question for any tester/programmer/etc. -
What is a barge hub and what does it do in the game? I saw on some screenshots a mention of this ability at a base (Pt. Moresby?)

[byron13]

Originally posted by IChristie


And how would that make me any different than any other field commander reporting to the high command

Good to see you know your place. What, you thought this was YOUR game? HA!

I appreciate Mogomi's comments, but I think at his point we (the whole gaming world) have pretty much taken the attitude of "forget the minor victory" conditions and are willing to throw it all away to see if we . . . er, Iaian . . . can get Lugansville and get the auto victory. Looks like we're just having fun now.

I am all in favor of using the damaged carriers as CAP escort for convoys. However, after Joel's last post, you may have to reconsider Mogomi's advice. You'd get at least one good CAP mission out of the carriers, but it looks like any damage at all would take you over the 50% mark and end flight operations. Ah, what the heck! Go for it!

Iain keeps asking the same question, but gets no answer. Matrix Staff: how soon could Iain expect to get ships back from Tokyo? What are the repair rates? Can he summon them back before repairs are completed if he wants?

[Joel Billings]

I can't remember the repair rates for sure, but my guess is that near 50% damaged large carriers would take 6 months before they'd be back, maybe more. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so. If they go back to Japan, they won't be back in time for an attempt at an auto-victory.

Joel

[IChristie]

That's OK, Joel. I had pretty much figured they would be gone for the duration . It's probably going to take them at least a couple weeks to get home. Sigh....

I had tried to post earlier but the network was down at work. Looks like another tip of the hat to Admiral Mogami in his secret garden. I think I will have to take a very long hard look at the carrier force and decide how many I need to carry the planes that I do have.

The other thing I'm wondering is whether sending one home will free up either the Junyo or Soryu which are sitting in Japan with no release date for the South Pacific set. That might be worth a try.

One question I did have - the CS class ships have a space for "carrier planes" but they usually only have "Float Planes" on board. Are there carrier a/c that they can actually carry - or is just for taxi service (i.e. launch but no land).

ic

[IChristie]

Well that didn't take long to figure out.

Here are the numbers

Total carrier a/c of all types
zeros (M2 and M3) - 209 (including those at airbases)
Kates- 52
Vals - 43

Total - 304

CV Capacity from "undamaged" carriers (in round numbers): Kaga (75), Hiryu (75), Zuiho (30), Shoho (30), Ryujo (30), Unyo (25)

Total capacity - 265

So, it certainly doesn't make sense to keep the three big damaged carriers around. I so Akagi and Hiryu go back to Japan (once their a/c are off loaded). I just can't bring myself to get rid of all the birds in the hand so Shokaku stays at Truk.

[IChristie]

More despatches from the front. I actually have an evening where my daughter is in bed and my wife is out so I'm actually playing this game while awake.... I wonder how that will work out

I'll keep posting every so often...

23 August - The Kaga and Shokaku are sent back to japan after disembarking their air fleets in Truk.

In the afternoon, I notice that the US Surface force is on it's way North to Lunga again and then - glory be! The Betty's and Nells from Lunga have at them and put a torpedo into the North Carolina (sorry BoomBoom) and three more into a luckless DD. OK boys, all is forgiven. Sake on me tonight!

I move all unneccessary shipping out of Lunga (across the channel to Tulagi) and sortie one of the CL TF's from Shortland

24 August - The surface TF turns around and is back in Luganville by morning. The bombing raids agains Gili Gili are getting quite intense. B-17's are now getting into the act. In one raid alone I counted over 40 bombers.

27 August - After several uneventful days (unless your living in Gili Gili, that is) I suddenly realize something: Nevea has a level 1 airstrip and it is in fighter range of Lugan ville - Praise the Lord and Pass the ammunition boys! I move some A6M3's there and set all the level bombers at Lunga for a Port Attack on Luganville.

28 August - It works like a charm! The Zeros join the sortie from Neve and With them holding off the CAP the bombers manage to lay some 250kg eggs on a CL, CA, DD and the North Carolina. Pillars of smoke tower skyward as they skim the waves back to Guadalcanal. The price - 1 plane lost and 2 damaged! Once again the Sake flows freely at "bird of Paradise" airbase on Lunga.

[mogami]

Greetings, Now can you build Nevea pior to the invasion? Station a horde of fighters there to escort the bomber from Lunga. This is a nice replacment for CAP over the landings. (They can hurt it but not sink it.) But it will require a defensive LCU. Can we bomb supplies at Luganville at night? Does being bombed at night subtract from the effectivness of the LCU there (put a few 'Washing Machine Charlies' at Nevea to keep the Marines awake at night. Use Sept and Oct to build up and then start the operation in Nov.

[IChristie]

I'm bringing more AV support in as we speak. There is a ground unit and an engineer already present.

LRP from that range is an option, but it's not very effective so I will probably include some carrier air as well (I still have a the Ryujo and Unyo that can't keep up with the fast carriers anyway). Yes, night raids are allowed and they do have an effect on Morale.

You are right, sir. Time to get them started I think. Have to keep on eye on aircrew morale to make sure the long range flying is not wearing them out.

[IChristie]

29 August - Intent on getting some of their own back, I guess a CA force is seen headed North the next day. Because the bombers are set to port attack as their primary mission, they don't attack it. I move the CL's down form Shortland again and set the bombers back to Naval attack in case there are stragglers to be picked off tomorrow.

In a minor disaster I find that I now have 50 fighters marooned at Gili Gili because the airfield has sustained so much damage they can't fly out - ****! I waited one turn too long to pull them out.

30 August - The battle of Guadalcanal UV style. Two evenly matched CA (IJN - 1CA, 2CL, 5DD vs. US 2CA, 1CL, 5 DD) forces trade blows in a swirling night time duel. By morning both US CA's are burning fiercely with the astoria having taken 15 hits. In return the Suzuya suffers moderate damage and the Natori is badly mauled. Both sides have a DD that is badly damaged as well.

The carnage starts again in the morning when the birds of paradise (as I call the Lunga airforce) get airborne. The Astoria is caught off Tulagi and attacked by no fewer than 28 bombers. She is torpedoed repeatedly and sunk. The New Orleans gets farther but fares no better, caught off San Cristobal she is torpedoed 5 times and reported sunk.

The birds, feeling pretty good about themselves, just can't resist the temptation to have a go a shipping in Luganville again. They are swarmed by 35 fighters (Nevea was closed by weather and so no escorts were available). Despite the heavy CAP, they just can't seem to miss and they put fish into a DD and a TK in Luganville Roads.

In another piece of good news, weahter socks Port Moresby in and the respite lets me repair the runway long enough to pull out two of the three groups of zeros.

31 August - Looks like it's getting to be about that time. I have managed to get 35 AP's in Truk with another batch headed to Rabaul to pick up a reg't there. I am still going to go ahead with the raid on Koumac. It only costs me 1000 troops and it's potential to sow havoc in the rear areas is too good to pass up. Time to start thinking about apportioning the carrier air as well.

OK here are the TF dispositions
Truk
- TF 6 - 38th Division
- TF 11 - 35th Brigade
- TF 13 - Close air support with Ryujo and Unyo
- TF -19 - Bombardment group with Yamato, Mutsu and Nagato
In addition a TF with second line infantry, base force and Eng support is formed
Another convoy loads with Fuel to drop at Shortland then load followup supplies

Rabaul
TF 21 - Covering force - with Kaga, Hiryu, Shoho, Hiei and Kirishima
TF 22 - Forward air cover - for the raid at Koumac - will RV with TF 21 - Zuiho and DD's

Shortland
2 Fast TPT TF's to carry the 2nd recon regt and other elements to Koumac
One of the CL TF's will cover at long range in case US surface units sortie

.... And Away we go!

[IChristie]

Well, in the end I decided to go with the majority opinion and send the invasion fleet agains Luganville. I have saved the game so we can always go back and explore any of the other options later.

Alors, Allons y

3 Sept - the invasion fleet sails from Truk. I intend to route them far to the east and then south to avoid detection as long as possible. The raider force leaves Shortlands. I decide that they will probably need a fuel top up before the run to Koumac so I form a replenishment TF as well. Likewise, in Truk I form a replenishment TF to accompany the bombardment force. Those BB's really drink the stuff. I'm still using all available capacity to ferry fuel south. Lunga has around 30 000 tons and Shortland 20 000 with more on the way. Rabaul still has over 80 000.

Night time raids on Luganville net little in real terms - I do get one lucky hit on the North Carolina - still in port and nursing wounds.

I need to be careful about the timing of the air offensive, because it will chew up my bombers pretty quick. 2 to 3 days before the assault should be plenty.

Also note, I have moved the rest of the Kavieng base force down to Nevea by flying boat. I think I will also drop one the base forces from Truk there on the way by. That should let me fly 50 fighters out of Nevea which should be enough.

9 Sept - Progress is slow and my nails are getting shorted by the minute. I finally get the APD's headed for Koumac. These TF's are slippery. If you don't give them final destinations they seem to like to turn around and head home.

I release the BB's from Truk with instructions to follow the invasion force. The replenishment convoy also sails. I load another replenishment convoy and send it on to Lunga.

The Zuiho is standing SW of Rennell to provide some amount of long range cover for them. Once they start the final run they'll be on their own.

Another CA force sorties from Luganville. They appear to be headed for Lunga but then veer off suddenly -looking like they are going to bombard Nevea instead (something I could not prevent) - but then they just go home. I beef up the birds of paradise and let them have it in port - the results are highly satisfactory with two more hits on the NC and three other warships left burning.

In other good news, more a/c replacements have started to arrive including a daitai of Oscars. I start moving air assets forward from Truk.

I load up the fast carriers in Rabaul and move them on the Shortland to get closer to the action.

11 Sept - The raid on Koumac goes off without a shot fired at the APD's. They scamper away to pick up supplies in LUnga and return. The main invasion fleet nears the concentration area a days sailing N of Nevea.

An AP carrying an extra base force is despatched to Nevea so I can add even more fighters there.

12 Sept - Koumac falls with hardly a struggle. Now we own a size 9 (yes that's a nine) airbase in the auto victory zone. Time to get busy with the flying boat shuttle and get some support and supplies down there. I'll move some fighters down right away to give some cover.

I'm so pumped, I'm not sure I'll sleep tonight.

Is anybody out there...