A few questions about the rules

[gridley]

Seeing as I'm the CW that was not the answer I was looking for...any better answers out there.[;)]

If Albania was a conqured minor the notional would be out of supply???

Anyway, thanks for the response Christopher...hope you and your group are doing well.

[composer99]

I have checked the actual rules (rather than relying on my less-than-ideal memory).

The rules state:

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.

So if you are landing in a hex with an Italian unit, the notional is also Italian and is hence out of supply. If you are landing on an otherwise empty hex, the notional would be controlled by the major power or minor country controlling the hex, which per the Scenario booklet rules for Global War is Albania as an aligned minor:

Control: As specified on the map except that:
[...]
Italy is aligned with Albania and has conquered Ethiopia; and [...]

You are correct in inferring that the notional in empty hexes would be Italian (and hence out of supply) if Albania was instead a conquered minor.

[gridley]

Control: As specified on the map except that:
[...]
Italy is aligned with Albania and has conquered Ethiopia; and [...]

This is the rule I missed.

So many rules in so many places...

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: gridley

This is the rule I missed.

So many rules in so many places...

Bleh! this one was not evident for me as well. [8|]

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Along these same lines,

If a unit stops in a sea area - section box 1- to fight through, and then survives the combat, it can stop in the sea area either in section box 1, or can move to a different section box if it has sufficient movement points. E.g., for a unit with 6 MPS that is intercepted as soon as it leaves port: 1 MP to enter the sea area + 1 MP for stopping to fight through, leaves 4 MPs. It could then be placed as high as the 4 box. But it would have only used 1 range.

Correct? [This is how it is coded presently.]

Correct. range allowance is only decremented when you enter a different sea zone or a port.

OK so I am playing conservatively like I learned playing World in Flames and I'm battling a cold by staying at home and not out at a jobsite. I dusted the electronic dust off a solitaire game and came up with a rules question and looked around for this thread.

First I found this message from the top of this page....which is related to my question, but different than how we have played interceptions, but I think Steve just used the 1 box as an example there....you could fight through from the 0 box and only have paid 1 total movement point after the interception combat is over. ?


My question is about moving task forces at sea. Can two task forces sailing from different ports combine at sea before entering a more distant sea zone, all together in one task force? The rules are not explicit on it that I can see, but perhaps shade towards a "no". ? I could also see this being a headache to program. I hope they can though; we have always played that way and I think in real life things would be done that way, but in the interests of expediency I hope whatever solution is already used to move naval units is kept as-is.

Here is the game situation where it came up: the CW wants to send land units to help the Russians hold Murmansk. The loaded TRS sail from Liverpool where reinforcements were just put down. The Home Fleet is based at Scapa Flow and wants to escort them through the Norwegian Sea, where the Kriegsmarine has a task force waiting, and on to the Arctic Ocean. The units from Liverpool and Scapa combine in the 0 box of the Faeroes Gap and proceed. I hope.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Along these same lines,

If a unit stops in a sea area - section box 1- to fight through, and then survives the combat, it can stop in the sea area either in section box 1, or can move to a different section box if it has sufficient movement points. E.g., for a unit with 6 MPS that is intercepted as soon as it leaves port: 1 MP to enter the sea area + 1 MP for stopping to fight through, leaves 4 MPs. It could then be placed as high as the 4 box. But it would have only used 1 range.

Correct? [This is how it is coded presently.]

Correct. range allowance is only decremented when you enter a different sea zone or a port.

OK so I am playing conservatively like I learned playing World in Flames and I'm battling a cold by staying at home and not out at a jobsite. I dusted the electronic dust off a solitaire game and came up with a rules question and looked around for this thread.

First I found this message from the top of this page....which is related to my question, but different than how we have played interceptions, but I think Steve just used the 1 box as an example there....you could fight through from the 0 box and only have paid 1 total movement point after the interception combat is over. ?


My question is about moving task forces at sea. Can two task forces sailing from different ports combine at sea before entering a more distant sea zone, all together in one task force? The rules are not explicit on it that I can see, but perhaps shade towards a "no". ? I could also see this being a headache to program. I hope they can though; we have always played that way and I think in real life things would be done that way, but in the interests of expediency I hope whatever solution is already used to move naval units is kept as-is.

Here is the game situation where it came up: the CW wants to send land units to help the Russians hold Murmansk. The loaded TRS sail from Liverpool where reinforcements were just put down. The Home Fleet is based at Scapa Flow and wants to escort them through the Norwegian Sea, where the Kriegsmarine has a task force waiting, and on to the Arctic Ocean. The units from Liverpool and Scapa combine in the 0 box of the Faeroes Gap and proceed. I hope.

Warspite1

That is the way we always played it - but I could not point you to the rule that said we could.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
My question is about moving task forces at sea. Can two task forces sailing from different ports combine at sea before entering a more distant sea zone, all together in one task force? The rules are not explicit on it that I can see, but perhaps shade towards a "no". ?

This is not possible.
Ships from different ports can't "merge" in a single fleet at sea and keep on going as a single fleet.
The only way to have such a "merge" to happen is for multiple fleets to sail from multiple ports to the same sea area sea box, and patrol there.
Then on their next impulse, they all return to base to the same base.

[warspite1]

Well there's another rule we mucked up [;)]

[Orm]

And here is the relevant rule.

11.4.2 Moving naval units
....
You can move your naval units individually or in a group. To move naval units in a group, they must all start
in the same port or sea-box section.
You can split a moving group of naval units in any sea area or port it passes through. Each time you split a
group of naval units from the main force, you use a separate naval move (exception: groups of SUB ~ see 11.4.1).
The group of naval units you split off can’t move any further.

[brian brian]

Well paying WiF can be so Clinton-esque - "It depends on what your definition of is is". In this case the word "start". Start where? The impulse? The moment in time where each task force has spent one movement and range point each? I have definitely played this one wrong, but it doesn't concern me that much, and would allow an opponent to do the same, as I feel real navies could easily accomplish having a convoy sail from one port and it's escort forces from another (and did regularly from Rosyth and Scapa actually, only a solid day or so of sailing in distance from each other). So bending the use of the word 'start' here doesn't feel like too much lawyerly rules stretching. But the rules are the rules, and MWiF need not concern itself with this.


Edit: I meant to write Start _when_ ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I have been working on the code for damaging/repairing factories, which was somewhat confused. The rules themselves are scattered in different sections of RAW so I took the time to write them out clearly for myself as "program specifications", so I could bring the code into alignment with same. Here's what I ended up with after several hours of labor:
===
// ****************************************************************************
// Class TFactoryHex.
//
// A TFactoryHex can contain up to 3 factories. The factories in the hex are
// differentiated using an index (0-2). Printed factories are designated
// Permanent internally. Red factories are always first in the list followed by
// Blue and then Green.
//
// Most Green factories are those that have been newly built (i.e., they are not
// Permanent). However, when a Blue factory moves to a different city, it is
// treated as being equivalent to a Green factory.
//
// When control of a factory hex changes sides, there are 2 possibilities:
// (1) the factories are 'Captured' by the enemy, or
// (2) the factories are 'Recaptured' by the side that originally controlled it.
// For instance, Germany occupying Lille 'Captures' the factories in the hex;
// while if the Allies later occupy Lille, then they 'Recapture' the factories.
//
// If the optional rule FactoryConstruction is not being used, then Red
// Factories are immediately usable by the new owner (both when Captured and
// Recaptured). Blue factories are not usable when Captured, but are
// immediately usable when Recaptured.
//
// The differences between Blue and Green factories are few:
// (1) Blue factories can be moved to a new location under certain conditions;
// Green factories can never be moved.
// (2) Blue factories that are 'destroyed' are merely Damaged, and moved to the
// Repair Pool, while 'destroyed' Green factories are removed from the game.
//
// Factories can only be destroyed if playing with the optional rule
// FactoryConstruction (which includes rules for factory destruction). Note
// well that the following paragraphs about destroying, damaging, and repairing
// factories only apply if the optional rule FactoryConstruction is being used.
//
// There are 3 ways in which a factory can be 'destroyed':
// (1) By strategic bombing,
// (2) Control of a factory hex changes sides, and
// (3) During the Factory Destruction phase if a major power chooses to destroy
// a factory using one of its land units that occupies the hex.
//
// Red factories are immediately damaged when they are Captured or Recaptured.
// Blue and green factories, on the other hand, merely become unusable when
// Captured; when Recaptured, they become immedaitely usable.
//
// If a Blue factory is 'destroyed', then it becomes damaged and moves to the
// Repair Pool. If a Green factory is 'destroyed', it is removed from the game.
//
// Repair of a damaged factory in the Repair Pool is initiated during the
// Production phase by spending build points to repair the factory. The factory
// then arrives as a future 'reinforcement'. In actuality, the factory simply
// changes from damaged to usable.
//
// If using the optional rule ConstructionEngineers, then an engineer unit must
// be in the factory's hex during the Production phase in order to spend build
// points to repair the factory.
//
// +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
// Code Implementation for damaging and repairing factories.
// +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
// A factory typically has no associated unit counter. Instead, the factory is
// displayed as an icon in the hex. For example, this is true for all Permanent
// (Printed) factories.
//
// Building a new factory causes a temporary New Factory unit to appear in a
// Production Pool. Once the factory arrives as a 'reinforcement', the New
// Factory unit is removed from the game and the factory icon for its arrival
// hex is modified to display a new Green factory.
//
// 'Destroying' a Red or Blue factory during strategic bombing causes a Damaged
// Factory unit to be created and placed in the Repair Pool. Destroyed Green
// factories are simply removed from the game.
//
// When a factory hex is Captured, a Damaged Factory unit is created for each
// undamaged factory in the hex. These units are placed in either the Repair
// Pool or the Reserve Pool. In the latter case the factory is not actually
// damaged, but marked as such for coding convenience. Red factories are
// damaged and placed in the Repair Pool. Blue and Green factories (undamaged)
// are placed in the Reserve Pool.
//
// When a factory hex is Recaptured, a Damaged Factory unit is created for each
// undamaged Red factory in the hex. For each undamaged Blue and Green factory,
// there should be a Damaged Factory unit in the Reserve Pool. That unit is
// removed from the game and the corresponding Blue/Green factory immediately
// becomes usable by the original owner.
//
// Capturing or Recapturing a factory hex containing damaged factories does not
// affect the damaged factories, unless they are in the process of being
// repaired. If they are being repaired, then that process is aborted and the
// damaged factory units return to the Repair Pool.
//
// If during the Factory Destruction phase a Blue factory is destroyed, its
// Damaged Factory unit in the Reserve Pool is moved into the Repair Pool.
// Destroying a Green factory causes its Damaged Factory unit in the Reserve
// Pool to be removed from the game.
//
// During the Production phase, a player may repair his damaged factories by
// spending build points. If using the optional rule ConstructionEngineers,
// then an engineer unit must be in the factory's hex. The Damaged Factory unit
// for the repaired factory is moved from the Repair Pool to a Production Pool
// to arrive as a reinforcement. Upon arrival, the Damaged Factory unit is
// removed from the game and the factory is shown as usable on the map (and in
// the Production Planning form).
// ****************************************************************************

[Orm]

// A TFactoryHex can contain up to 3 factories. The factories in the hex are
// differentiated using an index (0-2). Printed factories are designated
// Permanent internally. Red factories are always first in the list followed by
// Blue and then Green.

Note that you can never end with more than 2 blue (should be blue and/or green in MWIF) factories in one city.

See 11.10 and 22.2

[Orm]

// Red factories are immediately damaged when they are Captured or Recaptured.

I am not sure this is correct. A red factory is always available for production at once after you capture or recapture it unless you play with construction engineers.

Edit: As I understand it a factory is never destroyed by just capturing the factory hex. It must be destroyed by strategic bombardment or actively by a land unit in the factory hex if the conditions allow it. See 22.2.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

// Red factories are immediately damaged when they are Captured or Recaptured.

I am not sure this is correct. A red factory is always available for production at once after you capture or recapture it unless you play with construction engineers.

Edit: As I understand it a factory is never destroyed by just capturing the factory hex. It must be destroyed by strategic bombardment or actively by a land unit in the factory hex if the conditions allow it. See 22.2.

A preceding paragraph stated:
// Factories can only be destroyed if playing with the optional rule
// FactoryConstruction (which includes rules for factory destruction). Note
// well that the following paragraphs about destroying, damaging, and repairing
// factories only apply if the optional rule FactoryConstruction is being used.

---

As for your edit comment, RAW uses the word Destroyed, which would not have been my choice. It makes it difficult to discuss the rules because in most cases destroyed actually means damaged. Only in the case of Green factories does destroyed mean to remove the factory from the game completely.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

// Red factories are immediately damaged when they are Captured or Recaptured.

I am not sure this is correct. A red factory is always available for production at once after you capture or recapture it unless you play with construction engineers.

Edit: As I understand it a factory is never destroyed by just capturing the factory hex. It must be destroyed by strategic bombardment or actively by a land unit in the factory hex if the conditions allow it. See 22.2.

A preceding paragraph stated:
// Factories can only be destroyed if playing with the optional rule
// FactoryConstruction (which includes rules for factory destruction). Note
// well that the following paragraphs about destroying, damaging, and repairing
// factories only apply if the optional rule FactoryConstruction is being used.

---

As for your edit comment, RAW uses the word Destroyed, which would not have been my choice. It makes it difficult to discuss the rules because in most cases destroyed actually means damaged. Only in the case of Green factories does destroyed mean to remove the factory from the game completely.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Orm,

Having just read through all those various rules again, you may be right. The damage to the red factories only occurs by mere occupation of the hex if the optional rule for construction engineers is in use.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The rules themselves are scattered in different sections of RAW

You don't tell me [:@], this is my main grievance against WiF rules book.

This is the case for a lot of rules in WiF.

By the way : sorry for your health, wish you better (sorry for my english). [:)]

[paulderynck]

Other things to cover for factories:

1. What happens to red factories that change ownership but are not occupied by the enemy. FREX Italy is conquered but has two red factories that become German controlled - if playing with Construction Engineers, do they have to be repaired? (We play: No). Another example: Vichy is collapsed - what happens with the Axis trying to use the red factory in Lyons? (We play: It needs to be repaired if playing with Construction Engineers.) OTOH if France is liberated by the Allies and Vichy disappears, should the Allies have to repair Lyons - a> if Vichy was neutral or B> if Vichy was at war with the Allies. (We play: a> No or b> Yes). I can't recall anything in the rules or FAQ that is definitive on these. Our decisions are based on whether the factory can be viewed as having "changed sides" in which case we expect 5th columnists to have sufficiently messed with the infrastruture of the country.

2. Per RAW, blue factories are useable by the country that controlled them in 1939. This means incompletely conquered countries can have blue factory hexes reverted to them inside their original home country and then produce with them. FREX Italy might still produce with a reverted Trieste even though their new home country is now Estonia.

3. A blue factory may only be destroyed by ground units if enemy units - including partisans - are in the country. This can cause weird situations, FREX the Germans can't destroy blue factories in Occupied France after declaring Vichy until the Allies invade or until a French partisan shows up and is still alive at the end of the turn. So for China we always agree that all blue factories controlled by Japan at the start of the Global War scenario are all already destroyed - just so we aren't distracted by the trivialities of having to check if the occupying units are in supply (which is reqiuired for destroying things apparently) and announcing it.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is my revised in-line code comments for factories. It corrects the mistake that Orm identified in my post yesterday. I have also expanded the text to include New and Moving factories.
===
// ****************************************************************************
// Class TFactoryHex.
//
// A TFactoryHex can contain up to 3 factories. The factories in the hex are
// differentiated using an index (0-2). Red factories are always listed first
// followed by Blue and then Green. Printed factories are designated Permanent
// internally.
//
// Most Green factories are those that were newly built (i.e., they are not
// Permanent). However, when a Blue factory moves to a different city, it is
// treated as being equivalent to a Green factory.
//
// The differences between Blue and Green factories are few:
// (1) Blue factories can be moved to a new location under certain conditions;
// Green factories can never be moved.
// (2) Blue factories that are 'destroyed' are merely Damaged, and moved to the
// Repair Pool, while 'destroyed' Green factories are removed from the game.
//
// Factories can only be 'destroyed' if playing with the optional rule
// FactoryConstruction (which includes rules for factory destruction). Note
// well that the following paragraphs about destroying, damaging, and repairing
// factories only apply if the optional rule FactoryConstruction is being used.
//
// There are 3 ways in which a factory can be 'destroyed':
// (1) By strategic bombing,
// (2) Control of a red factory changes sides (when using the optional rule
// ConstructionEngineers as described in Code Implementation below), and
// (3) During the Factory Destruction phase when a major power chooses to
// destroy a Blue or Green factory using one of its land units that occupies
// the hex.
//
// If a Red or Blue factory is 'destroyed', by any means, then it becomes
// damaged and a unit representing the damaged factory is placed in the Repair
// Pool. If a Green factory is 'destroyed', it is removed from the game.
//
// Repair of a damaged factory in the Repair Pool is initiated during the
// Production phase by spending build points to repair the factory. The factory
// then arrives as a future 'reinforcement'. In actuality, upon arrival the
// factory simply changes from damaged to usable.
//
// If using the optional rule ConstructionEngineers, then an engineer unit must
// be in the factory's hex during the Production phase in order to spend build
// points to repair the factory.
//
// ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
// Code Implementation for factories.
// ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
// A factory typically has no associated unit counter. Instead, the factory is
// displayed as an icon in the hex. For example, this is true for all Permanent
// (Printed) factories. Temporary factory units are created under four
// circumstances:
// (1) when a new factory is built,
// (2) when a factory is being moved,
// (3) when a factory is damaged, and
// (4) when an undamaged Blue or Green factory is controlled by the enemy.
// In all these cases the temporary factory units are placed in off-map pools so
// players can see the status of factories that are not currently usable but
// which may become usable in the future.
//
// Building a new factory causes a New Factory unit to be created and placed in
// a Production Pool. Once the factory arrives as a 'reinforcement', the New
// Factory unit is removed from the game and the factory icon in its arrival hex
// is modified to display a new Green factory.
//
// Moving a Blue factory by rail causes a Moving Factory unit to be created and
// placed in a Production Pool. Once the factory arrives as a 'reinforcement',
// the Moving Factory unit is removed from the game and the factory icon in its
// arrival hex is modified to display a new Blue factory. Some scenarios start
// with the USSR having Moving Factory units in the Setup tray and/or a
// Production Pool. The USSR player can placed these factories in any valid
// city hex in the USSR. However, all factories that are moved during a game
// have their destinations specified by the player when they are first moved.
// Those destinations cannot be changed and the factory must arrive in the city
// hex originally chosen by the player.
//
// 'Destroying' a Red or Blue factory during strategic bombing causes a Damaged
// Factory unit to be created and placed in the Repair Pool. Destroyed Green
// factories are simply removed from the game.
//
// When control of a factory hex changes sides, there are 2 possibilities:
// (1) the factories are 'Captured' by the enemy, or
// (2) the factories are 'Recaptured' by the side that originally controlled it.
// For instance, Germany occupying Lille 'Captures' the factories in the hex;
// while if the Allies later occupy Lille, then they 'Recapture' the factories.
//
// Capturing or Recapturing a factory hex containing damaged factories does not
// affect the damaged factories, unless they are in the process of being
// repaired. If they are being repaired, then that process is aborted and the
// damaged factory units are returned to the Repair Pool.
//
// Undamaged Blue and Green factories are never usable when Captured, but are
// immediately usable when Recaptured.
//
// Undamaged Red Factories are immediately usable by the new owner when they are
// Captured or Recaptured, unless the optional rule ConstructionEngineers is
// being used. If the optional rule ConstructionEngineers IS being used, then
// for each undamaged Red factory in a Captured or Recaptured factory hex, a
// Damaged Factory unit is created and placed in the Repair Pool.
//
// When a factory hex is Recaptured, for each undamaged Blue and Green factory,
// there should be a Factory unit in the Reserve Pool. That unit is removed
// from the game and the corresponding Blue/Green factory immediately becomes
// usable by the original owner.
//
// If during the Factory Destruction phase a Blue factory is destroyed, its
// Factory unit in the Reserve Pool is converted to a Damaged Fatory unit and
// moved into the Repair Pool. Destroying a Green factory causes its Factory
// unit in the Reserve Pool to be removed from the game.
//
// During the Production phase, a player may repair his damaged factories by
// spending build points. If using the optional rule ConstructionEngineers,
// then an engineer unit must be in the factory's hex. When a factory is
// repaired, the Damaged Factory unit for the repaired factory is moved from the
// Repair Pool to a Production Pool to arrive as a reinforcement. Upon arrival,
// the Damaged Factory unit is removed from the game and the factory is shown as
// usable on the map (and in the Production Planning form).
// ****************************************************************************

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Other things to cover for factories:

1. What happens to red factories that change ownership but are not occupied by the enemy. FREX Italy is conquered but has two red factories that become German controlled - if playing with Construction Engineers, do they have to be repaired? (We play: No). Another example: Vichy is collapsed - what happens with the Axis trying to use the red factory in Lyons? (We play: It needs to be repaired if playing with Construction Engineers.) OTOH if France is liberated by the Allies and Vichy disappears, should the Allies have to repair Lyons - a> if Vichy was neutral or B> if Vichy was at war with the Allies. (We play: a> No or b> Yes). I can't recall anything in the rules or FAQ that is definitive on these. Our decisions are based on whether the factory can be viewed as having "changed sides" in which case we expect 5th columnists to have sufficiently messed with the infrastruture of the country.

2. Per RAW, blue factories are useable by the country that controlled them in 1939. This means incompletely conquered countries can have blue factory hexes reverted to them inside their original home country and then produce with them. FREX Italy might still produce with a reverted Trieste even though their new home country is now Estonia.

3. A blue factory may only be destroyed by ground units if enemy units - including partisans - are in the country. This can cause weird situations, FREX the Germans can't destroy blue factories in Occupied France after declaring Vichy until the Allies invade or until a French partisan shows up and is still alive at the end of the turn. So for China we always agree that all blue factories controlled by Japan at the start of the Global War scenario are all already destroyed - just so we aren't distracted by the trivialities of having to check if the occupying units are in supply (which is reqiuired for destroying things apparently) and announcing it.

#1: MWIF uses the same code to process change of control of a hex. For factories, the important thing is whether hex control has changed to the other side. So the conquest of Italy would not affect the status of red factories controlled by Germany. Collapsing Vichy would have the same effect since both Vichy and Germany/Italy are on the same side. Liberating France while Vichy is extant would cause hex control to change sides, with the need for an engineer to repair the red factory - if that optional rule is in effect.

#2: Yes, this is how MWIF handles this. I am currently adding code to create a Factory unit for each Blue factory in an enemy controlled hex at the start of a new game. Beside those in China, there are numerous others in the later scenarios. All these units will be in the Reserve Pool, indicating that if the original side recaptures the factory hex, these factories will be immediately usable.

#3: Yes, some situations are difficult to explain logically. But this isn't a problem for MWIF - it just follows the dictates of the rules. [Paul, there is a clarification/correction in RAW which says none of the factories in China has been destroyed.]