Here come the Rebels! (Canoe v. Q-Ball)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm trying to learn the pilot training system.  I'm taking it step by step.  Thus far I have set nearly every squadron on the map to 100% training; I've begun changing them to range zero (at JohnDillworth's suggestion); I am considering changing the fighters to 90% train and 10% CAP (based on something I read somewhere in the forums over the past day or two).  I haven't reached the point where I have pilots ready to go to reserve or TRACOM, but I'll learn the ins and outs of that when the time comes.

Although I don't like pilot training micromanagement, I somewhat reluctantly decided I had better suck it up and learn the system if I want to give Q-Ball a good game.

FWIW, I didn't train in my first game either. I'm in late Feb. 1942 now, and my average USN pilot (per Tracker's excellent sub-type pilot breakdown tab) is at 48 EXP. In game #1 I don't think the pool ever got out of the 30s. My average level bomber pilot is 60. I haven't had heavy, sustained ops yet, but it's apparent that training is the Allies' only way to fight the limited airframes built into the game. My early P-40E units at PM, three of them, have about 50% pilots over 70 EXP, and a few in the 80s, in Feb. 1942. They can sweep Lae and survive.

I also sent all four of those early DB units (A-24 Banshee) to PM, and gave them all excellent DB pilots stripped from all over the PTO. At least 75% over 70 EXP. They've sunk about 15 xAKs at Lae and Buna, some very heavy xAKs, with light losses to themselves. I lose them to withdrawl in March, but I'll strip them down again before sending them off. Combined with 70 EXP P-40s they hit and hit, day after day. The Zeros can't really deal.

Finally, I've played with 100% training and zero range and find that this maxes accumulation of skills while not accumulating fatigue. Even a Range=1 gives fatigue. No fatigue lowers Ops losses markedly. I was training at max range, figuring this gave more time in the air and thus more skill accumulation, but fatigue quickly shoots into the 30s and you start losing planes and pilots to Ops loss. Just what I've seen.

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, Gents! I've already begun changing my training squadrons (which means nearly every squadron on the map at this point) to zero range.

I'm in late January '42 and my pilot skills are still very poor. I may be doing something wrong. For one thing, I probably need better squadron commanders, but I don't want to spend the political points to get them. I need my PP mainly to free up troops to send to some of the important islands and Oz.

[Nemo121]

I've trained religiously in my game and by March 1942 I've begun graduating the first class of 70+ A2A Exp pilots for the USAAF, USMC and USN. The Brits have fewer training squadrons so they are just graduating pilots in the 65 to 70 A2A Exp range at the moment.

In the first 3 days of March 1942 I graduated over 40 pilots with more than 70 A2A Exp. That's more than enough to keep me going till month's end at which point in time I should graduate over 100 pilots with more than 70 A2A Exp. I think it'll top out at about 150 to 200 pilots graduating per month with more than 70 A2A Exp by about June 1942 and will increase to more than 200 pilots per month in 1943 as I start getting more and more squadrons on-map I can use for training.

Swap in the inspirational and high A2A Exp leaders into your squadrons and also leave the most experienced pilot in them. Both of those things seem to help. In terms of the PP cost of moving in those leaders... Well, it costs a whole lot less, over the course of the war, than losing a few hundred to a few thousand additional airplanes because you don't have good enough pilots. Right now when I meet IJAAF or IJNAF fighters I routinely get better than 1:1 kill ratios and overall in the air I'm hovering around a 2.5:1 kill ratio since January 1942 ( in December I lost a lot of planes I couldn't evacuate from the Phillipines so I'm discounting them from the figures as they tend to mask the effect of pilot training).

Done right you only need to check your training 2 days per month -
1. Draw pilots out once they hit 70 Exp on the 1st of the month and assign newbies to replace them.
2. On the 14th of the month go through each squadron again and assign the newbies who have arrived to the squadrons for training to actually train within the squadron. That's it.

[Canoerebel]

Thanks, Nemo.

A point of clarification: you refer several times to "70 a2a exp." Do you actually mean "70 a2a skill"?

Also, your point 1 says: "Draw pilots out once they hit 70..." Draw them where? Do you mean use the "draw veteran" button to assign them to frontline squadrons?

Thanks for the pointers!

[Nemo121]

Aye, sorry, 70 A2A skill.

I'll do it list form to be clearer...

1. 1st of the month. Comb all the training squadrons in CONUSA - which is where I keep my training squadrons for the USAAF etc - for 70+ A2A skill pilots.
2. Assign those pilots to the GENERAL RESERVE from those training squadrons.
3. If I had 5 pilots with > 70 A2A skill in a 33 pilot squadron that will leave me with 28 pilots in the squadron.
4. Still on the 1st of the month just draft in 5 replacements from the REPLACEMENTS pool ( not the reserve pool as you may draw experienced pilots back into a training squadron ).

5. Wait two weeks in order to give everyone from the replacements pool enough time to reach the various squadrons.
6. On the 15th of the month just go through every training squadron in CONUSA and assign those new arrivals to the squadron from the squadron reserve ( which is where they should be by this time ).

7. Wait about 3 months for them to graduate from 35 Exp to 70 Exp. On average a squadron of 33 pilots should be able, once the initial 3 month training period is over, to graduate about 8 pilots per month. If you have 25 squadrons then you have 200 x pilots with 70 A2A skill graduating per month and that is, rather quickly, going to cut your loss rate, increase the enemy loss rate and cause your front-line pilots to begin increasing in skill as the Japanese pilots decrease in skill. Over time the differential will get larger and unless your opponent trains even harder than you you will gain an edge.

When you draw the pilots with > 70 A2A skill out of the training squadrons you should draw them into the general reserve. Then, whenever your units suffer casualties you can, with a delay of about a week, replace those pilots they lost with >70 A2A skill pilots drawn from the general reserve.

Even if he matches your training it STILL helps you because every squadron back in Japan training is another squadron not on the front line killing your planes and ships. So, training is a win/win for the Allies.


Is that clear enough? It is a bit fiddly but it is the best compromise between effectiveness and actually being manageable in-game that I could come up with. FWIW I'd love this to be automated.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Thanks, Gents! I've already begun changing my training squadrons (which means nearly every squadron on the map at this point) to zero range.

I'm in late January '42 and my pilot skills are still very poor. I may be doing something wrong. For one thing, I probably need better squadron commanders, but I don't want to spend the political points to get them. I need my PP mainly to free up troops to send to some of the important islands and Oz.

My Exp and Air rating averages are bouncing around a lot due to new arrivals and withdrawls in Feb, but both are climbing pretty fast when fatigue is kept at zero. I haven't swapped many COs either, except a swap-in of the worst Air rating guy for permanent withdrawls.

I raided the AVG for most of its aces and sent them to PM. The AVG did its best at Rangoon, then pulled north to Mandalay to repair and await withdrawl. I think those aces can do more good at PM than beating themselves against 150-plane Sally raids with an Oscar side dish.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, sorry, 70 A2A skill.

I'll do it list form to be clearer...

1. 1st of the month. Comb all the training squadrons in CONUSA - which is where I keep my training squadrons for the USAAF etc - for 70+ A2A skill pilots.
2. Assign those pilots to the GENERAL RESERVE from those training squadrons.
3. If I had 5 pilots with > 70 A2A skill in a 33 pilot squadron that will leave me with 28 pilots in the squadron.
4. Still on the 1st of the month just draft in 5 replacements from the REPLACEMENTS pool ( not the reserve pool as you may draw experienced pilots back into a training squadron ).

5. Wait two weeks in order to give everyone from the replacements pool enough time to reach the various squadrons.
6. On the 15th of the month just go through every training squadron in CONUSA and assign those new arrivals to the squadron from the squadron reserve ( which is where they should be by this time ).

7. Wait about 3 months for them to graduate from 35 Exp to 70 Exp. On average a squadron of 33 pilots should be able, once the initial 3 month training period is over, to graduate about 8 pilots per month. If you have 25 squadrons then you have 200 x pilots with 70 A2A skill graduating per month and that is, rather quickly, going to cut your loss rate, increase the enemy loss rate and cause your front-line pilots to begin increasing in skill as the Japanese pilots decrease in skill. Over time the differential will get larger and unless your opponent trains even harder than you you will gain an edge.

When you draw the pilots with > 70 A2A skill out of the training squadrons you should draw them into the general reserve. Then, whenever your units suffer casualties you can, with a delay of about a week, replace those pilots they lost with >70 A2A skill pilots drawn from the general reserve.

Even if he matches your training it STILL helps you because every squadron back in Japan training is another squadron not on the front line killing your planes and ships. So, training is a win/win for the Allies.


Is that clear enough? It is a bit fiddly but it is the best compromise between effectiveness and actually being manageable in-game that I could come up with. FWIW I'd love this to be automated.

Good list, Nemo121. I'd say this is a real good place to start.

I (and others) would also advise that you maybe consider keeping pilots in some form of training until 70 a2a (for sure) skill, but ALSO until both EXP (experience) and DEF (defense) surpass '50'. If a pilot with a low defensive and experiential rating is bounced, you'll lose them in droves, regardless of a2a skills.

Having these two additional skills >50 seems to improve your pilot survivability.

With minimal micromanagement, how do you deal with that? You can:

1. Just leave them in training longer-sometimes significantly longer. Eventually these skills will rise to be >50.
2. After most of the squadron has a2a > or near 70, you can switch them onto 'general' training versus 'escort' training. This will train up other skills beyond a2a. This, eventually, will get you to where you need to be too.

[Canoerebel]

Hey, thanks for this helpful primer, guys. I appreciate your pointers and your forebearance from saying, "Hey, dummy, this has all been spelled out in fifty different threads now!" Also, a nod of gratitude to Nemo for his step-by-step menu that even I can follow.

[SqzMyLemon]

I'd also suggest, if not everyone is already doing this already and I'm once again behind the learning curve [;)], to max out the pilots within a squadron. What I mean for example is a unit with an assigned allotment of 27 aircraft can actually have 36 pilots within the formation (1/3 more than the aircraft allotted). I recently learned this, as before I was just filling up my squadrons with pilots to match the number of aircraft. That being said, you don't even need to have the air unit with a full complement of aircraft either to have the pilots still train. That would definitely limit Ops losses I think. I'm not sure if having more pilots than planes lowers fatigue, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that is the case. Those extra pilots trained will add up quickly. Hopefully this is some more useful information for you Canoerebel.

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'm not sure if having more pilots than planes lowers fatigue, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that is the case.

It does. It's a big difference.

[Bullwinkle58]

I picture dragging their butts out of the BOQ and the O-club and getting them to work. You can do this to hundreds of pilots from the very first day if you fully stock every squadron. I'm not sure of how or if it affects fatigue either. I just like to have them working for Uncle Sugar's paycheck.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd also suggest, if not everyone is already doing this already and I'm once again behind the learning curve [;)], to max out the pilots within a squadron. What I mean for example is a unit with an assigned allotment of 27 aircraft can actually have 36 pilots within the formation (1/3 more than the aircraft allotted). I recently learned this, as before I was just filling up my squadrons with pilots to match the number of aircraft. That being said, you don't even need to have the air unit with a full complement of aircraft either to have the pilots still train. That would definitely limit Ops losses I think. I'm not sure if having more pilots than planes lowers fatigue, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that is the case. Those extra pilots trained will add up quickly. Hopefully this is some more useful information for you Canoerebel.

Good point, SqzMyLemon-you're right. You can effectively train a squadron with 1 functional airframe (or none?). Since the allies are so pinched for airframes for the first few years, you certainly don't want to fill up training squadrons. Canoerebel-be sure to set these squadrons to "No Replacements".

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, sorry, 70 A2A skill.

I'll do it list form to be clearer...

1. 1st of the month. Comb all the training squadrons in CONUSA - which is where I keep my training squadrons for the USAAF etc - for 70+ A2A skill pilots.
2. Assign those pilots to the GENERAL RESERVE from those training squadrons.
3. If I had 5 pilots with > 70 A2A skill in a 33 pilot squadron that will leave me with 28 pilots in the squadron.
4. Still on the 1st of the month just draft in 5 replacements from the REPLACEMENTS pool ( not the reserve pool as you may draw experienced pilots back into a training squadron ).

5. Wait two weeks in order to give everyone from the replacements pool enough time to reach the various squadrons.
6. On the 15th of the month just go through every training squadron in CONUSA and assign those new arrivals to the squadron from the squadron reserve ( which is where they should be by this time ).

7. Wait about 3 months for them to graduate from 35 Exp to 70 Exp. On average a squadron of 33 pilots should be able, once the initial 3 month training period is over, to graduate about 8 pilots per month. If you have 25 squadrons then you have 200 x pilots with 70 A2A skill graduating per month and that is, rather quickly, going to cut your loss rate, increase the enemy loss rate and cause your front-line pilots to begin increasing in skill as the Japanese pilots decrease in skill. Over time the differential will get larger and unless your opponent trains even harder than you you will gain an edge.

When you draw the pilots with > 70 A2A skill out of the training squadrons you should draw them into the general reserve. Then, whenever your units suffer casualties you can, with a delay of about a week, replace those pilots they lost with >70 A2A skill pilots drawn from the general reserve.

Even if he matches your training it STILL helps you because every squadron back in Japan training is another squadron not on the front line killing your planes and ships. So, training is a win/win for the Allies.


Is that clear enough? It is a bit fiddly but it is the best compromise between effectiveness and actually being manageable in-game that I could come up with. FWIW I'd love this to be automated.

Good list, Nemo121. I'd say this is a real good place to start.

I (and others) would also advise that you maybe consider keeping pilots in some form of training until 70 a2a (for sure) skill, but ALSO until both EXP (experience) and DEF (defense) surpass '50'. If a pilot with a low defensive and experiential rating is bounced, you'll lose them in droves, regardless of a2a skills.

Having these two additional skills >50 seems to improve your pilot survivability.

With minimal micromanagement, how do you deal with that? You can:

1. Just leave them in training longer-sometimes significantly longer. Eventually these skills will rise to be >50.
2. After most of the squadron has a2a > or near 70, you can switch them onto 'general' training versus 'escort' training. This will train up other skills beyond a2a. This, eventually, will get you to where you need to be too.

Or just put them in places where the risk is not great and assign them to routine CAP or patrol. They will gain exp steadily this way. Faster than extended stays in training.

Although, it is not possible early in the game when you are scrambling to fight off the Japanese onslaught, by 1/43 you should be able to have 1/3 of your squadrons dedicated to training to improve individual skills, 1/3 in quite sectors doing routine patrols to up their experience, and 1/3 in the front lines where your best pilots and planes should go.

It is pretty easy to work up a surplus of fighter pilots but dang hard for bomber pilots as you just never have enough airframes. I sort of like training but it just takes up too much time. I find that an AE turn takes me more than twice as long to work up than an WITP turn. Most of this extra time is spent on pilots. There should be a simpler way.

[Canoerebel]

As I have toiled with the pilot-training protocol over the past day or so, I find myself saying, "Dass darf nicht wahr sein" - This cannot be!

Double clicking on pilot after pilot after pilot to transfer him to group reserve and then general reserve. How utterly tedious. How is it possible that this abomination was included in a game of such grand scope?

This is not a rant nor a jab at the designers. I love the game and I'm willing to put up with pilot training because I love it. But it's like Ford installed push peddles in a gorgeous new Mustang convertible. They just don't belong and they seiously detract from the experience.

P.S. This ground has been covered over and over and over again. Some people enjoy the micromanagement, others detest it. So be it.

[JohnDillworth]

As I have toiled with the pilot-training protocol over the past day or so, I find myself saying, "Dass darf nicht wahr sein" - This cannot be!

Double clicking on pilot after pilot after pilot to transfer him to group reserve and then general reserve. How utterly tedious. How is it possible that this abomination was included in a game of such grand scope?

This is not a rant nor a jab at the designers. I love the game and I'm willing to put up with pilot training because I love it. But it's like Ford installed push peddles in a gorgeous new Mustang convertible. They just don't belong and they seiously detract from the experience.

P.S. This ground has been covered over and over and over again. Some people enjoy the micromanagement, others detest it. So be it.

No, I think most of us are with you on this. "Just cause I can do it , doesn't mean I should do it" Either have the pilots show up later and trained (as in WITP) or be able to right click and select (send pilot to training for 180 days) or something. This is war in the pacific, not train in the pacific. Some of the detail is interesting but this is silly and time consuming. unfortunately, it is necessary to be competitive.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

As I have toiled with the pilot-training protocol over the past day or so, I find myself saying, "Dass darf nicht wahr sein" - This cannot be!

Double clicking on pilot after pilot after pilot to transfer him to group reserve and then general reserve. How utterly tedious. How is it possible that this abomination was included in a game of such grand scope?

This is not a rant nor a jab at the designers. I love the game and I'm willing to put up with pilot training because I love it. But it's like Ford installed push peddles in a gorgeous new Mustang convertible. They just don't belong and they seiously detract from the experience.

P.S. This ground has been covered over and over and over again. Some people enjoy the micromanagement, others detest it. So be it.

JMHO but its a cheat. It was methodology deliberately put in so JFB don't have to deal with the shortage of trained pilots in 1944 and 1945. On review, that statement seems harsh. To put it more politically correct: its a play balance device to assure more eveness in the game late in the war

[Nemo121]

I'm not so sure.. We all asked for on-map training and this is how it has played out.

Personally though I don't have a problem with the idea of Japanese training remaining competitive into 1945 IF Japan devotes sufficient resources to this. That's the key though, it should have an opportunity cost. Right now I don't see that it does except in terms of HI and even there because the HI applies to off-map training academy graduates the on-map stuff doesn't really have an opportunity cost.

[ny59giants]

We do have friends who attended Georgia Tech, Auburn, Tennessee and even - gasp! - Clemson.

I got my Master's at Clemson, so I'm not that bad. [;)] At the time, Clemson was allowing residents of Georgia and North Carolina to get in state tuition within the Education Dept. It changed after my first year and I didn't need a GRE qualify.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I'm not so sure.. We all asked for on-map training and this is how it has played out.

Personally though I don't have a problem with the idea of Japanese training remaining competitive into 1945 IF Japan devotes sufficient resources to this. That's the key though, it should have an opportunity cost. Right now I don't see that it does except in terms of HI and even there because the HI applies to off-map training academy graduates the on-map stuff doesn't really have an opportunity cost.

I didn't ask for on-map training, but that can be chalked up to the fact that I didn't know enough about the game to advocate anything. Probably the only thing I was vocal about was: "Waypoints! Oooooooh!"

But now that I've dipped my toe in the pilot-training waters, I've confirmed my previous hunch that it is tedious in the extreme and detracts from what I enjoy about the game. Nevertheless, I love the game as a whole and appreciate all the help you guys provided. As I said a few posts ago, I'm doing the pilot training in order to remain competitive in the air.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
I got my Master's at Clemson, so I'm not that bad. [;)] At the time, Clemson was allowing residents of Georgia and North Carolina to get in state tuition within the Education Dept. It changed after my first year and I didn't need a GRE qualify.

When I was at Georgia in the early '80s, our biggest and closest and twin-brother rival was Clemson. Not Florida, not Tennessee, not Auburn, not Georgia Tech. Clemson was right up the road and is similar in many ways, plus both teams were at the height of their powers at the time.