Sweep vs Escorts

[EUBanana]

Actually it looks like one guy in that squadron made both of those kills.

I got no idea if he was the guy up at 26,500 or one of the ones waiting on the deck.

If he was one of the ones on the deck, then perhaps there is good reasoning, as deck to 6000' is easy enough.

If he was the guy at 26,500, then there isn't, but we will unfortunately never know.

In any case - they are staying at 26k. [;)]

[EUBanana]

Looks like, trying to read between the lines, 'time to reach interception 57 minutes' implies that those on the ground presumably would have not have time to intercept the enemy, and only the one at 26k feet did.

But who knows.

[Shark7]

What you guys need to do is make a new scenario, giving the P-40 identical stats to the Zero (IE copy the Zero stats into the P-40 slot) then run the altitude tests. That removes the variables that you are not concerned with testing and will give you less skewed results. [;)]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

What you guys need to do is make a new scenario, giving the P-40 identical stats to the Zero (IE copy the Zero stats into the P-40 slot) then run the altitude tests. That removes the variables that you are not concerned with testing and will give you less skewed results. [;)]

I did actually try to sic Zeroes on Zeroes, but it won't let you do that. [;)]

[Shark7]

You have to edit a scenario to do it, so the DB/Scenario editor is the only way to do it. In fact building a new one with just 2 bases, one scenario with both having radar and both without, and setting up an existing allied plane with the stats of the zero would be ideal.

I know how to do it, but I have no interest in actually doing it.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

You have to edit a scenario to do it, so the DB/Scenario editor is the only way to do it. In fact building a new one with just 2 bases, one scenario with both having radar and both without, and setting up an existing allied plane with the stats of the zero would be ideal.

I know how to do it, but I have no interest in actually doing it.

It isn't actually necessary. Thats why you do a few control scenarios first and change just one factor.

If you see different results, its because of the factor you changed.

[Nomad]

Then let me put this one in from my PBEM. It shows that altitude does NOT always trump everything else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Myitkyina , at 64,42

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 41



Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 59
Hurricane IIc Trop x 29
P-39D Airacobra x 6
P-400 Airacobra x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
7 x Hurricane IIc Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIc Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
1 x P-400 Airacobra sweeping at 19000 feet
2 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 19000 feet
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *

CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sardaukar]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Your post confirms that you didn't even look at my tests.

Got quite interesting results in my next test, which would indicate that Split CAP works.

I had 2 US P-40E units (av exp. 58) set to 50% CAP at altitudes of 20 000 and 10 000. Sweepers were again Rufes at 32810. Note, US had radar in all these tests. Fighters engaged were approx. same as with one unit 100% CAP in previous tests.


You got 2 squadrons on CAP. Now you got 3 actors all interacting with one another, a far more complex system than 2. You're not testing maneuverability in isolation at this point, there's all sorts that could be going on.

It's impossible to test "split CAP" with 1 unit, you know...[8D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
It's impossible to test "split CAP" with 1 unit, you know...[8D]

I know - but I wasn't testing split CAP, but maneuver bands.

My beef has always been that all that lovely data is essentially spurious.

Split CAP, well. You get split CAP anyway, unless every a/c has the same ceiling. They almost never do though, so putting everything at ceiling = split CAP by default. [;)] I got Hurris, P38s, P40s, Beaufighters and Airacobras all intermingled, same as most people I guess. Not many bases with just one fighter type present unless it's a single squadron base.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
It's impossible to test "split CAP" with 1 unit, you know...[8D]

I know - but I wasn't testing split CAP, but maneuver bands.

My beef has always been that all that lovely data is essentially spurious.

Split CAP, well. You get split CAP anyway, unless every a/c has the same ceiling. They almost never do though, so putting everything at ceiling = split CAP by default. [;)] I got Hurris, P38s, P40s, Beaufighters and Airacobras all intermingled, same as most people I guess. Not many bases with just one fighter type present unless it's a single squadron base.

that was exactly my thought...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Then let me put this one in from my PBEM. It shows that altitude does NOT always trump everything else.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Myitkyina , at 64,42

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 41



Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 59
Hurricane IIc Trop x 29
P-39D Airacobra x 6
P-400 Airacobra x 5


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
7 x Hurricane IIc Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
2 x Hurricane IIc Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *
1 x P-400 Airacobra sweeping at 19000 feet
2 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 19000 feet
2 x Hurricane IIb Trop sweeping at 30000 feet *

CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

definetely correct. Same as it wouldn´t be correct to say "my squadrons n e v e r coordinate". Or in WITP times "my Wirraways n e v e r shoot something down"... [:)]

what you shouldn´t miss in your example though is the fact that you could have run into the problem that most of your fighters on Cap (set to fly higher than the incoming sweep) perhaps haven´t managed to get to that height in time and were dived on. Don´t know, I didn´t watch your replay.

Who won this fight? The side that got the dive or the side that got dived on? If the Hurricanes and Airacobras were dived on the whole engagement and they still shot down the enemy at a 10:1 rate then that would be the first time for me to see that.

[Nomad]

I'm the Allies and I don't watch much of the replays

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
what you shouldn´t miss in your example though is the fact that you could have run into the problem that most of your fighters on Cap (set to fly higher than the incoming sweep) perhaps haven´t managed to get to that height in time and were dived on. Don´t know, I didn´t watch your replay.

With only 7 minutes warning that seems very likely.

I noticed from my CAP tests that even if you have sweepers coming in at 5000' when the CAP is at 35,000' - even then, you will see the sweepers diving on victims and shooting them down. And in turn being dived on.

I'm 95% sure that happens because the sweepers are shooting down scrambling aircraft right as they take off from the base.

I suppose a test with decent Allied radar would perhaps answer that definitively, but really, it isn't all that relevant.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I'm the Allies and I don't watch much of the replays

the replays seem to be essential to get a picture of what is happening though

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: castor troy
what you shouldn´t miss in your example though is the fact that you could have run into the problem that most of your fighters on Cap (set to fly higher than the incoming sweep) perhaps haven´t managed to get to that height in time and were dived on. Don´t know, I didn´t watch your replay.

With only 7 minutes warning that seems very likely.

I noticed from my CAP tests that even if you have sweepers coming in at 5000' when the CAP is at 35,000' - even then, you will see the sweepers diving on victims and shooting them down. And in turn being dived on.

I'm 95% sure that happens because the sweepers are shooting down scrambling aircraft right as they take off from the base.

I suppose a test with decent Allied radar would perhaps answer that definitively, but really, it isn't all that relevant.

I never figured out which estimation I should go with though. You get the message on top of the report like

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 32,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes


but then you also get messages for each squadron individually and they usuall differ:

3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32810 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 32810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
11th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Raid is overhead
77th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35000 , scrambling fighters to 35000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes

[LoBaron]

If you really want to test the effect of maneuver bands I´d suggest you eliminate the dive by setting
two different airframes (the optimum would be a classic high alt performer and a very nimble low alt plane)
at the same altitude bands, so run tests at 9k, 15k, 20, 25k, 30k.

If you don´t use split CAP the dive is too strong and probably influences the results too much to get valuable results.

[invernomuto]

If you don´t use split CAP the dive is too strong and probably influences the results too much to get valuable results.

I think that this is exactly what EUBanana is trying to demonstrate with his test [;)]
However, we have too few test to try to estimate how the A2A model works, we need more test run to weight the importance of alt band IMHO.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: invernomuto

If you don´t use split CAP the dive is too strong and probably influences the results too much to get valuable results.

I think that this is exactly what EUBanana is trying to demonstrate with his test [;)]
However, we have too few test to try to estimate how the A2A model works, we need more test run to weight the importance of alt band IMHO.

And it´s actually the first time I get to hear this from above´s poster... [:D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
And it´s actually the first time I get to hear this from above´s poster... [:D]

[:D][;)]

[LoBaron]

Hehe I knew this would happen. [:D]

If you think twice though I never said anything else.
EUBanana tries to prove that an average pilot who gets dived on by an average pilot is dead.
And that , if you play dumb against a sweep that has altitude advantage, you lose.

Wow big surprize. I don´t need to test something like that.

I never said this isn´t so. It was in the war. Its in the game. Whats so special about that?

What Nomad, Sardaukar, Nemo and me tried to show, and probably many others already are aware of: the dive is not almighty if you
don´t play dumb. Its just another feature.
And if you know what youre doing you can negate it.

See post #156...and those before. [;)]

Night gents.