Smokindave vs. Sapper222 (No Sapper)

[smokindave34]

Turn 15 - AGC

[smokindave34]

Turn 15 AGS

I moved III panzer corps south to try and force a decision at D/Z town.

[smokindave34]

Turn 15 - Crimea

I was able to cross the river here and clear out a few level 2 forts with cavalry unit by using hasty attacks.

[Peltonx]

5.1 million you would think its a disaster, but vs Hugh he had same numbers and I was able to do a 1 hex withdrawal in areas and 2 hex in south. Then pounded him in 42, then dispite ammo/refit/replacement/morale bugs I was holding out 3.5 vs 9.5 in March 44. Draw was more then likely.

I do not thk most guys have got the October 42 - July 45 part of the game down as far as GHC goes.

It should be easyer then ever now to get draws as GHC after the last round of patchs.

[sillyflower]

It's not just about the army numbers but the geography and the economy. Sapper will have an intact economy, without any manpower of arms point problems. By the end of the blizzard Smoking will be a long way back and Sapper's army will be in very good condition to meet any German summer O. I don't expect that O to get anywhere at all and is more likely to wear down the Wehrmacht than the red army

Come winter '42 Smokin' will be going backwards but without any spare running room.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I must say that I admire your grit and determination, it's a great quality to have.I think I might have thrown all my toys out of the pram a while ago and be on to the sulking stage by now.

Smokin' is the most tenacious opponent I have ever met. Not content with The Pro's getting an auto win in '44 by taking Magdeburg, he wanted to make us take Berlin. We went back a turn(an advantage of PBEM)and played on keeping cleat of M town until Berlin fell in '45.

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I might add that in my game with Kamil by turn 10 I had Tula, was at the gates of Rostov and had Tambov. All of which were gained simply because they were given up. As much fun as the game with Kamil is I prefer games with less running. Hence the August check in future. I might also add I will be looking to play as Russian with the above rules as well. I like a challenge, not a one-sided cake walk.

I agree Flavius the game has problems. But I still believe a contest is attainable with some HR and morale adjustments.

I think Flavius statement is right in so many ways. Your idea of an "anti-running" HR by T10 is probably doable. However, Kamil wasn't exactly voluntarily giving up that much territory. At least from what he said in his AAR and what his maps showed, after the initial T1-T3 disasters in the south, he was caught completely flat-footed and unable to set up something orderly for quite a while -- well, as you yourself surely noticed. It must have been around T9-T11 when he first regained some balance and started to punish your extremely exposed Motorized Divisions...

It is another example where the game went outside the "average balanced path" , and began an accelerating spiral into his demise. Not sure he could have done so much else except placed more small groups of forces in your way to just would have gotten additional victims for a minor speed bump...?

Not even the fixed morale mechanics helped that. Probably when Sov players get used to it, and get used to the new Lvov-Rumania opening, the game may see more forward fighting. As such the problem isn't the newly gained CV. I think Flav also hit the nail right on, it is the routing function with its additional casualties that becomes an issue now if the units get stouter.
Plus: it is the Lvov type opening coupled with (i) the militarily relatively unimportant cities and poorly defensible terrain in the south and contrasted by a combination of (ii) hindsight on how important LG is for the fate of Moscow (and the war), with (iii) the previous in-game experience that Sov units in the north and center are unable without sizable additions from the south to delay or contest the Axis in a fashion that would enable feats like stopping AGN short of LG, or for several >=4 turns at Smolensk.

I think it is from a game sense logical to move pretty much all surviving units north to where the really matter rather keeping them face AGS while most of their chance to really stop it have just evaporated. This looks like a vacuum, however, and looks to me like a serious cause of the issues that develop for some Axis players with AGC or AGN. Not sure you'd remove that with a T10 SD check. With the new morale fix, I think you need to give Sov's more reason to fight and let units stay in the south, by whatever means. Perhaps a SD rule of the opposite type, that if by T8 or T10 Proskurov, Kiev and Odessa are still held, some penalty applies to Axis. That may be more motivating that just having opposite checks.

Other than that I think Axis players give up way to early when suddenly facing stiffening Sov resistance, like in front of LG. The thing that affects Axis the most, and feels most arbitrary with little logical to do against except sending a whole Army group on home leave remains this blizzard. I think with the morale now fixed, Sovs should be able to go better into that phase, and the Axis penalties should be given the highest priority to be looked at still...

[Peltonx]

Its still far to easy to win as SHC.

Look at the AAR's post 1.07 and you will see only 2 people with wins or draws. All the rest of the games SHC is winning easly. Basicly on the offensive in mid to late 1942.

Completely unhistorical and people want to give SHC a bigger advantage?

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

It's not just about the army numbers but the geography and the economy. Sapper will have an intact economy, without any manpower of arms point problems. By the end of the blizzard Smoking will be a long way back and Sapper's army will be in very good condition to meet any German summer O. I don't expect that O to get anywhere at all and is more likely to wear down the Wehrmacht than the red army

Come winter '42 Smokin' will be going backwards but without any spare running room.

I think Sillyflower is right on the mark here. I intend to survive the blizzard and hopefully have my army in good shape but I don't believe I've captured any armament points and certainly have not captured any major manpower centers. Sapper will be building a monster in '42/43. Hopefully the new morale rules and fix to the '43 rifle squad will help me but I wouldn't bet on it.

[smokindave34]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I must say that I admire your grit and determination, it's a great quality to have.I think I might have thrown all my toys out of the pram a while ago and be on to the sulking stage by now.

Smokin' is the most tenacious opponent I have ever met. Not content with The Pro's getting an auto win in '44 by taking Magdeburg, he wanted to make us take Berlin. We went back a turn(an advantage of PBEM)and played on keeping cleat of M town until Berlin fell in '45.

What one person may call tenacious others may call stubborn! [;)]

[smokindave34]

Turn 17 - End of the '41 Summer offensive.

AGN

I corps and XXXX panzer push back the NW sector of Sappers line some more. I continue to build forts in the choke point north of Lake Peipus.

[smokindave34]

Velikie Luki - Sapper sticks a cavalry unit out to far and I cut if off - should be one less cavalry division to deal with during the blizzard.

[smokindave34]

Turn 17 AGC

I use my panzers to push Sapper back in the area of Smolensk - this was the furthest his line extended west so I will concentrate on this area during the snow turns as well. After the attacks I pull my panzers back to refit and dig.

[smokindave34]

Turn 17 AGS:

I make 3 direct attacks on Soviet cities and capture all of them. Not exactly a crushing blow to the Soviet manpower reserves but I'll take it.

[smokindave34]

Turn 17 - Crimea.

I continue to farm morale for 1st Panzer against Sapper cavalry divisions. The Rumanians and Italians continue digging the "smokindave line". I've been refitting my minor allies and have a lot of them over 50 morale - they will be decent in '41 but still useless during the blizzard (expect the mountain brigades).

[Cfant]

Beeing a noob, I'm just playing my first GC against the KI. I read, that the GHC should get 4 Mio. Russians in '41. I get it in my game, but I can't imagine to nearly achieve that against a human player. We see it here: It will be 2 Mio., not more.
The reason is: There are no consequences for running away. The Sowjets were not loved in the Ukraine (and many other regions), maybe it was not only underestimating the enemy, but also political reasons, what made them fighting forward.
WitE is about the military, it is about economy, but it fades out policy. The Russians should get penaltys for running away. Kiev falls before turn 10? -10 Moral. Smolensk before turn 8? Event "Russians doubt, that victory is possible - productivity falls by 10 percent". Just thinking
Would prevent, that SHC runs like Forrest Gump.

[Flaviusx]

Ultimately there needs to be some kind of penalty for running away. I don't really buy into the sudden death thing. But I'm not sure what the right mechanic here would be. I suppose you could hit the person who runs with some severe penalty in VPs, or a bonus to the other side, such that in the end it would actually change the level of victory. This is sort of what the scenarios do.

So, hypotheticaly, a Soviet major win in 45 that came after a lot of running early on could be knocked down a notch or two, and turn into a draw or worse. This avoids the gimmicky SD stuff but makes you pay a real price for giving up too much ground too quickly. Same penalties could apply for the Axis, but the blizzard needs to be fixed up to be less severe. Generally speaking, I don't believe changes in this area can be done in a vacuum, other game systems need to be fixed as well. Too many things are interlocked here to pick and choose stuff a la carte and call it a day. We need to address all these issues together.

Of course, the running away stuff can't really be addressed without the Lvov opener. Again, it's all a package deal.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Ultimately there needs to be some kind of penalty for running away. I don't really buy into the sudden death thing. But I'm not sure what the right mechanic here would be. I suppose you could hit the person who runs with some severe penalty in VPs, or a bonus to the other side, such that in the end it would actually change the level of victory. This is sort of what the scenarios do.

So, hypotheticaly, a Soviet major win in 45 that came after a lot of running early on could be knocked down a notch or two, and turn into a draw or worse. This avoids the gimmicky SD stuff but makes you pay a real price for giving up too much ground too quickly. Same penalties could apply for the Axis, but the blizzard needs to be fixed up to be less severe. Generally speaking, I don't believe changes in this area can be done in a vacuum, other game systems need to be fixed as well. Too many things are interlocked here to pick and choose stuff a la carte and call it a day. We need to address all these issues together.

Of course, the running away stuff can't really be addressed without the Lvov opener. Again, it's all a package deal.

I have thought about something similar. Perhaps something like splitting up the war for VP calculation purposes in different phases (e.g. June 41 - Dec 41, Dec 41 - May 42, May 42 - Dec 42 etc.). Players get awarded VPs for their performance in each phase. After the game's end in 1945 these points then get added to see who won. So ideally, even if a Soviet arrives in Berlin in March 45, but has ran away too much doesn't win. On the other hand, if a German player has a disastrous 41, he can still hold out for a draw by limiting Soviet success in the subsequent phases, even if he loses Berlin by March 45.

But I agree, the issues of 41 are all interlocked and can't be really resolved until WITE2. Most important in my opinion is the combat system. Soviet blizzard success for example should result more due to German exhaustion and force concentration, rathar than some magical winter bonus that turns Soviet divisions that were trashed just a week prior into monsters, while German divisions get reduced into crap. Then logistics should get straightened out, like single-double track issues, limited cargo amount on a single rail line etc. This not only can limit German advance in 41, but also Soviet advances in the winter, or in 43-44. As for the Lvov opener, I agree that this should be removed, although I don't quite know how, yet.

[smokindave34]

As I prepare for the blizzard (I just finished the last mud turn) I'm considering sending my artillery support units back to OKH in Poland to ride out the blizzard. I've never done this before but think that some players have done this to minimize losses to the armament hogs. Does anyone have experience with this?

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

As I prepare for the blizzard (I just finished the last mud turn) I'm considering sending my artillery support units back to OKH in Poland to ride out the blizzard. I've never done this before but think that some players have done this to minimize losses to the armament hogs. Does anyone have experience with this?

I think Hitman and Pelton have done something like this.