A discussion about our Community and Moderation.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: DD696

So, what is the policy?

I don't know either, but I doubt it's possible to spell it out exactly. I'm just hoping for "reasonable".

For example, today is Betty White's birthday - she would have been 100. More to the point, what few people know is that she put her career on hold to serve with the American Women’s Voluntary Services during WW2. Here's what the US Army had to say on the day she died:

“We are saddened by the passing of Betty White,” the Army said in a statement on Twitter. “Not only was she an amazing actress, she also served during WWII as a member of the American Women’s Voluntary Services. A true legend on and off the screen.”

An article in US Veterans Magazine provides more details:

White found work modeling in the late 1930s, but put her larger aspirations on hold during World War II in order to work with the American Women’s Voluntary Services (AWVS) in 1941.

The AWVS sent female volunteers to take on roles including firefighting, ambulance and truck driving, and aerial photography.

During an interview with Cleveland magazine in 2010, White said that her assignment consisted of driving a PX truck of supplies to barracks in the Hollywood Hills — while attending dances for departing troops at night.

Attached is a photo of Betty taken during the 40's. It's hard to imagine that this sort of thing would violate the new policy, and personally it sounds like exactly the sort of information - and pictorial - that would be perfectly appropriate in an AAR or an off-topic thread.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: DD696

So, what is the policy?

I don't know either, but I doubt it's possible to spell it out exactly. I'm just hoping for "reasonable".

For example, today is Betty White's birthday - she would have been 100. More to the point, what few people know is that she put her career on hold to serve with the American Women’s Voluntary Services during WW2. Here's what the US Army had to say on the day she died:

“We are saddened by the passing of Betty White,” the Army said in a statement on Twitter. “Not only was she an amazing actress, she also served during WWII as a member of the American Women’s Voluntary Services. A true legend on and off the screen.”

An article in US Veterans Magazine provides more details:

White found work modeling in the late 1930s, but put her larger aspirations on hold during World War II in order to work with the American Women’s Voluntary Services (AWVS) in 1941.

The AWVS sent female volunteers to take on roles including firefighting, ambulance and truck driving, and aerial photography.

During an interview with Cleveland magazine in 2010, White said that her assignment consisted of driving a PX truck of supplies to barracks in the Hollywood Hills — while attending dances for departing troops at night.

Attached is a photo of Betty taken during the 40's. It's hard to imagine that this sort of thing would violate the new policy, and personally it sounds like exactly the sort of information - and pictorial - that would be perfectly appropriate in an AAR or an off-topic thread.

Betty White . . .

[CaptBeefheart]

ORIGINAL: DD696

This thread Erik started regarding a discussion of out Community and Moderation has deteriorated into a discussion of either 1) Alfred is a god, therefore infallible and not subject to reprimand for any action he has taken, or 2) Alfred knew the in's and out's of the game but he is intolerably rude.

I'd add a third category: 3) Alfred knows the game very well and he sometimes comes off as rude to people, but that kind of thing on the internet doesn't bother us.

Put me in the third category.

Cheers,
CB

P.S. This is a business and Mr. Rutins can do what he wants with this forum.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

ORIGINAL: DD696

This thread Erik started regarding a discussion of out Community and Moderation has deteriorated into a discussion of either 1) Alfred is a god, therefore infallible and not subject to reprimand for any action he has taken, or 2) Alfred knew the in's and out's of the game but he is intolerably rude.

I'd add a third category: 3) Alfred knows the game very well and he sometimes comes off as rude to people, but that kind of thing on the internet doesn't bother us.

Put me in the third category.

Cheers,
CB

P.S. This is a business and Mr. Rutins can do what he wants with this forum.

Yes, yes, & yes. +3.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

ORIGINAL: DD696

This thread Erik started regarding a discussion of out Community and Moderation has deteriorated into a discussion of either 1) Alfred is a god, therefore infallible and not subject to reprimand for any action he has taken, or 2) Alfred knew the in's and out's of the game but he is intolerably rude.

I'd add a third category: 3) Alfred knows the game very well and he sometimes comes off as rude to people, but that kind of thing on the internet doesn't bother us.

Put me in the third category.

Cheers,
CB

P.S. This is a business and Mr. Rutins can do what he wants with this forum.

Yes, yes, & yes. +3.

Yes, Alfred knows the game very well and has been gruff but he has also shown a humorous side.

One reason why he did quote either from the manual or threads from the developers was that he was in a lot of their discussions. That is correct, he also had to sign a NDA which is one reason why he quoted from the manual or from the developers posts. Some people did not like what he stated and tried to argue with him about how things work or should work when what he stated was different than their perceptions.

[Ian R]

people did not like what he stated and tried to argue with him about how things work or should work when what he stated was different than their perceptions.

I'm not going to look up the posts, but my unsound recollection is that that was particularly so if the OP had claimed they had discovered a bug, which claim had been refuted. I do remember that one person did actually find something, that could be a bug, and Alfred, after discussion and further testing, agreed that it could be.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: DD696

So, what is the policy?

I don't know either, but I doubt it's possible to spell it out exactly. I'm just hoping for "reasonable".

For example, today is Betty White's birthday - she would have been 100. More to the point, what few people know is that she put her career on hold to serve with the American Women’s Voluntary Services during WW2. Here's what the US Army had to say on the day she died:

“We are saddened by the passing of Betty White,” the Army said in a statement on Twitter. “Not only was she an amazing actress, she also served during WWII as a member of the American Women’s Voluntary Services. A true legend on and off the screen.”

An article in US Veterans Magazine provides more details:

White found work modeling in the late 1930s, but put her larger aspirations on hold during World War II in order to work with the American Women’s Voluntary Services (AWVS) in 1941.

The AWVS sent female volunteers to take on roles including firefighting, ambulance and truck driving, and aerial photography.

During an interview with Cleveland magazine in 2010, White said that her assignment consisted of driving a PX truck of supplies to barracks in the Hollywood Hills — while attending dances for departing troops at night.

Attached is a photo of Betty taken during the 40's. It's hard to imagine that this sort of thing would violate the new policy, and personally it sounds like exactly the sort of information - and pictorial - that would be perfectly appropriate in an AAR or an off-topic thread.

warspite1

There has been so much over reaction over the last few days, with attacks on Matrix staff (particularly Edmon) from people who really should know better Kull.

No I don’t for a second imagine that a picture of Betty White (from the 1940’s) posted within a post that celebrated her life (and specifically her war service) would not be allowed in this war gaming forum. There is nothing distasteful about the picture, and it is posted in context - a celebration of her life and service to country.

Why would reasonable people think that is what the Derby House Principles is trying to target?

[Yaab]

.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There has been so much over reaction over the last few days, with attacks on Matrix staff (particularly Edmon) from people who really should know better Kull.

Come down off your soap box. It was "moderation"....that was anything but. Everybody saw it.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There has been so much over reaction over the last few days, with attacks on Matrix staff (particularly Edmon) from people who really should know better Kull.

Come down off your soap box. It was "moderation"....that was anything but. Everybody saw it.

warspite1

No soap box here. Review your posts aimed at Edmon in the cold light of day. You probably have and are happy with them. I think they were out of order.

Yes, everybody 'saw it' and different people have different views. You seem to be concerned that all pictures of females are now verboten for reasons I can't comprehend. This is Matrix Games, not Gilead.


Oh and by the way, as an aside, and fwiw, I happen to agree with what you said about 'Kali' and PM'd Matrix, as we were all invited to do, to give my thoughts. I will be watching the game development closely to see if such comments are taken on board.

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

No I don’t for a second imagine that a picture of Betty White (from the 1940’s) posted within a post that celebrated her life (and specifically her war service) would not be allowed in this war gaming forum. There is nothing distasteful about the picture, and it is posted in context - a celebration of her life and service to country.

Why would reasonable people think that is what the Derby House Principles is trying to target?

Whataboutism is all the rage these days.

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: DD696

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: DD696

Yawn. So much excitement and meaningless drama. Arguing simply for the sake of arguing. Always having to have the last word. Yawn....

Do you have a suggestion to improve the discourse? Bearing in mind that everyone is coming from a place of differing experiences and might not relate to yours?

Why, yes, I do. Thank you for asking. To answer:

This thread Eric started regarding a discussion of out Community and Moderation has deteriorated into a discussion of either 1) Alfred is a god, therefore infallible and not subject to reprimand for any action he has taken, or 2) Alfred knew the in's and out's of the game but he is intolerably rude.

My opinion falls into the number 2 category. In fact, his knowledge of the game certainly implied to me over the years that he had access to the code. He was not on the development team, and yet he apparently knew how the code worked explicitly. How did he get this knowledge? Certainly not from information available to any user of the game. So where? I wonder how he got that access.

Now, I would rather that a discussion be held on the events of the Friday massacre and what provoked a hired gun from Slitherine to jump in and start locking threads, outright deleting others that attempted to question these actions, and to generate more disruption to this forum than I have ever seen, and I have been around since the beginnings of Matrix Games, but did not register to participate on the forums until about August of 2004. I don't post a lot, but when I do I have something to say rather than building up a post count.

I was looking through my collection of WWII era photos this afternoon wondering just how many of them would be allowed under the new Gin House Blues rules, or whatever excuse they are using. I wondered if this is simply their war against women. Any picture of a woman, no matter how chaste the appearance may be, can be deleted. Weapons of war and violence, pictures of the carnage, rampage, death and destruction are allowed. I wondered if pictures of my great grand mothers would be allowed, and concluded that they would not. A graduation picture of my daughter would be disallowed.

I wondered when standing in line at the grocery store, that since the woman facing away from me was showing her backside to me, would Slitherine consider that as her "presenting" herself. Looking thru the photos I wondered if the same standards applied to men as well. Should a picture of Marines wading ashore at Tarawa be banned because their backsides are shown by the camera. Does Slitherine consider them to be sexualized because of the angle of the camera. I wondered about the Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima. I wondered that if they had been women would the picture be banned because no one is showing a frontal view?

If Slitherine is fair that both sexes should be treated equally. If pictures of women are banned, then so should be pictures of men.

Why is every picture of a woman sexualized and yet the same standard does not apply to a picture of Patton, Rommel, Eisenhower or Tojo. I looked at a photo of Theodore Roosevelt Jr's grave and it is marked by a cross. Is this picture allowed?

Yeah, there is much more to discuss than whether on not Alfred is a god.

The "issue" with community inclusiveness: It depends on the who, where and when..... Right now the who is Matrix interpreting what is OK for the customer base or potential customer base (guided by personal moral compass, possibly influenced by dialogue with us), the where is Matrix Forums, the when is 2022 ("western" society if you will).

All things considered, I do not think Matrix (Erik) is unreasonable...

[Trugrit]

This has been a strange ride for several days.

There are some good things that came out of it.
I never knew how much I liked Kull until I saw him abused by the latest
visiting dignitary from another forum or maybe from outer space.

I’ve been trying to stay out of this whole thing and I think I’ve done very well up to this
point, but if Kull had not come back I was going to tear into Edmon and maybe even Erik
like they both never though possible. Not through PM, I have Matrix phone numbers
and as an old guy I can use the old fashioned telephone very well.

Thankfully that has been avoided.

Western Civilization is in the middle of a culture war.
I appreciate Erik’s difficulty in having to walk a fine line that is constantly changing.

I read Erik’s entire post several times. It is pretty standard stuff.
The Derby House Principles and the forum link Erik included are political statements.
When you open a thread with political statements you invite political comments.

That is what this is really all about…...political correctness.

I don’t know how diversity and inclusion is working out at Matrix but it does not mean much to many companies.
Twitter in December deleted thousands of right-wing accounts just because they existed.
There are articles and indications that the US military is purging Christians from the US military.
So much for diversity and inclusion.

Erik is a good CEO but he needs to work on his tactics. That will come in time.
I don’t know why he brought Alfred back into it, he had to know that was going to stir the pot. It did.

Although months ago when Alfred was banned I advised Erik to open a thread where everyone could vent
and just let it run until it burned itself out. Threads tend to burn out, even raging forest fires over time.

He thought that would cause a lot of hard feelings and might cause a rage war which could run on
for a long time but I thought the hard feelings were already there and it was better to have
things out in the open so we know where everyone stands.

It is my hope that when this thread burns itself out everyone can just walk away.
There is a part of a marriage ceremony where the pastor says…..Speak now or forever hold your peace.

I’ll speak now and then forever hold my peace. I hope everyone else will do the same.

I liked Alfred, he was always kind and helpful to me and I think because of my time in the military I was able
to step over his rude personality because I’ve been yelled at by professionals and compared to them
Alfred was a soft spoken amateur.

This last round with Edmon was very heavy handed…….I do think Matrix needs to be much more tactful in the approach.
Edmon shut down more threads faster than I’ve seen in my entire eleven years on the forum.
I think that could have been avoided. I agree that lewd pictures should go but that does not include pin-up art.
Pin-up art has been recognized as fine art and has been displayed in many fine art galleries.

Artists have been painting, drawing and sculpting the female form for hundreds of years.

But…..If Matrix wants to take down areas where the company was perfectly fine with for a very long time then
there are better ways to ease into that take down other than a heavy hand.

Especially using a heavy hand in the area of pin-up art gives the impression that the leadership at Matrix thinks
forum members who have supported and bought their products for many long years are sexist pigs.

Not to mention the veterans of World War Two who painted the pin-up art on their planes.

Matrix needs to understand that insinuating that veterans of what I consider to be the
greatest generation (My father is in that group) are sexist pigs is not going to sit well with
military veterans like me.

They have gone back on the nose art which is a good thing and will go a long way towards harmony.
I think I might launch a thread on the history pin-up art without using images.
It might be educational for Edmon to know that three of the very best pin-up artists were women.
I’m sure he has never heard of Zoe Mozert.

I think Matrix is headed toward a ban on everything that is currently considered politically incorrect
By the Progressive left-wing. Matrix is trying to line up with that standard…...hard because it is a moving standard.

Things Matrix was fine with in 2009 it is not fine with in 2022 because of a big push by the Progressive left
in the area of political correctness. WITP-AE has been a long running game.

I don’t know from a marketing standpoint if it is wise to come right out and say that Matrix is a Progressive
left-wing company. Matrix is an entertainment company and left-wing is the standard in the entertainment industry.

It does make me wonder if Matrix is going to move much further left on the forums.
If so I would think that logos and avatars may be next.

Mine is John Wayne. I have have been a fan of him since I was a young boy…...flawed though he is.

The question…....Is John Wayne too identified as alpha male, masculine, white, straight and right-wing
for an image of him to appear on the Matrix forums in the future?
In the future does diversity and inclusion extend to a simple image of John Wayne?

I don’t expect Erik to answer that because I don’t expect he knows.

I’m real sorry about Erik’s dad.
When a man loses his father it is like losing a big part of his entire world.

But…….Erik, like myself, can see our father every time we look in a mirror.

Just my two cents.

Keith

[Yaab]

I think I might launch a thread on the history pin-up art without using images.
It might be educational for Edmon to know that three of the very best pin-up artists were women.
I’m sure he has never heard of Zoe Mozert.

Trugrit, thank you for this piece of obscure americana. Who were the other two women painters?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

Especially using a heavy hand in the area of pin-up art gives the impression that the leadership at Matrix thinks
forum members who have supported and bought their products for many long years are sexist pigs.

Not to mention the veterans of World War Two who painted the pin-up art on their planes.

Matrix needs to understand that insinuating that veterans of what I consider to be the
greatest generation (My father is in that group) are sexist pigs is not going to sit well with
military veterans like me.

warspite1

I mentioned over reaction earlier. And here, I'm afraid, is another example. You think, you REALLY think that Matrix management are insinuating that veterans of WWII are sexist pigs or that they wish to give the impression that purchasers of Matrix products are sexist pigs??

Come on Trugrit, you can't believe that to be true... can you?

Matrix are moving with the times. We may like it, not like it, or a million shades of grey in-between. But it is what it is. Matrix have made their decision, it won't be changed and individually we accept it or move on.

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

I never knew how much I liked Kull until I saw him abused by the latest
visiting dignitary from another forum or maybe from outer space.

Never in the history of human conflict, have so few words been deployed so effectively.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ORIGINAL: Trugrit

I never knew how much I liked Kull until I saw him abused by the latest
visiting dignitary from another forum or maybe from outer space.

Never in the history of human conflict, have so few words been deployed so effectively.

warspite1

Out of interest, who is the 'visiting dignitary' being referred to here? Edmon? How did he abuse Kull?

[Yaab]

This forum has morphed from strategy to RPG

Alfred the Terrible
Demon the Edomite
Hans Sternenkrieg
Symon the Righteous
Tanaka the Cultfinder General
Greyjoy of Scoodra
Yaab Restartitus
Castortroy A.E.I.O.U.
Vitruvius Trvgrit

[Yaab]

double post

[Lokasenna]

Imagine my... well, I guess not surprise, but disappointment, to find that the post I am quoting below (only since it was the first and most directly inspired my 2012 thread look-up) from page 2 is still essentially the topic of conversation 4 pages later.

Having had many a conversation with MM over the years, I find it kind of funny that folks think he's an Alfred crusader. If one reads what he actually said, one notices that it's more nuanced than that.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

To be frank, that was an appropriate admonishment to MarkShot, who (if you remember the wider context) had been making a number of posts that, if you were being generous, you could describe as low effort. This from someone who was up front about the fact they hadn't purchased the game and certainly gave off quite a negative impression overall to myself and others.

Note, importantly, the ad hominem attack that appears in post 4, and others in subsequent posts.

Do you think that Alfred's pointed simile merited such ad hominem attacks? I certainly don't.

Too many times he would stamp on, in particular (though not limited to) newbies. For what? Because the newbie dared ask a question? Because the newbie didn't read the manual? Because a poster posted a link to a You Tube video he thought helpful? You seriously think many of these weren't ad hominem attacks? They were, albeit thinly veiled.

See my previous comments regarding on post #31 regarding questions being asked, but I neglected to there those cases where there were accusations of a bug or something being broken, when there was a failure of comprehension.

We're gonna have to disagree here. Allow me to link my very first post on these forums, in the waaaaaaaay back days of March 2012, which did contain a surprising amount of politeness (at first) before devolving into .

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3052564

Right off the bat, Alfred's tone was "look at this idiot." It was extremely offputting to be told this, when it was, in fact, not at all what I was doing:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Unloading is not the real problem here.

1. The OP is trying to load two air units simultaneously into the same Air Transport TF which has 2 AKV. Don't do it. Have only one AKV and load only one air unit.

2. The OP gets to the verify stage and because he sees the answer in red, he fails to click on the "accept" button. Loading air units on either an Air Transport or Transport TF is always verified in red. No air unit is anywhere big enough to need more than a single merchantman to carry the unit. Loading ground units are verified in white, with orange used when there is insufficient total lift capacity.

Alfred

I mean, really? It's subtle, but the derision and attitudes towards people he perceived as lowly plebes is there. For years, there were times when he was wrong or at least not totally correct (my thorough investigation of the CV reaction issue was one such instance), but would adamantly insist that his word was, essentially, divine - and salt that insistence with much (impolite) browbeating.

On the topic of MarkShot's thread, I found the guy's attitudes a bit brash and rude (as evidenced by my own replies to him in that thread), but he started out on topic, even if they were kind of newbie questions (which is fine!) and wasn't slinging insults without provocation. It's an example of a poster who was absolutely driven away by needless dressing-down by a poster held up as a golden idol by some other posters (and yes, who was also openly hated by some others, who went on to break the same code of conduct that they didn't appreciate him breaking).

I actually had written something far more scathing in response to Alfred, but deleted it as I decided I didn't feel like getting into an argument with the forum golden boy and perhaps a posse of followers. It was easier to simply say that the insult didn't even make sense, which I also thought would actually bother Alfred more than a fiery rebuke.

I agree 100% with what Erik Rutins said about what he did with Alfred, and what he (they) could have done better in terms of approach. A former game-runner, moderator, and executive myself, I've certainly made mistakes in approach and I completely understand where he's coming from and I know all about that introspection after an action causes an uproar ("What did I screw up?", "What could I have done better?", "Am I wrong?" - or at least, the good leaders do this). His approach and post here are extremely laudable. And for the record, I don't think he made any mistakes with Alfred, either - there was a clear pattern of years-long bullying and a temporary ban, without a warning, is absolutely acceptable to me. As mentioned by several people, it's up to Alfred whether or not the ban is lifted. All he has to do is agree to follow the rules.


Incivility doesn't belong here. I'm rather glad that Erik and Edmon have beefed up the moderating around civility and decency. It has me paying attention, although also sadly bemused by the folks saying "Matrix had better take notice", as if they're some kind of universal arbiter of... something. Sigh. Some of those saying it are among the same posters as those who would cause me to dread checking the forum over the years, knowing that I was going to be in one of these situations when I did:

ORIGINAL: mattj78

lets not forget Alfred is welcome back to the forum any time he likes all he has to do is follow the rules he refuses to do so i think that says enough in it self every one should remember that when defending him

This x1000. Also applies to those who've been flaunting the rules on purpose. I see some have agreed to follow the rules and have had their bans lifted.