Combined Historical Scenario - Aircraft

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

While playing around with the U.S. Photo-Recon squadrons I found this data. Note that the "date" column indicates date of first flight and not availability for service. Very interesting ....

Going to add any of these puppies?[:)]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Going to add any of these puppies?[:)]

My finger is itching to do it but ...

We've already added the F4 - it was available early and had substantial numbers - and that takes care of those units that were in existance when the war began. The F-5 and 6 are in and I think the F-8 is too (as the British Mosquito PR.IX). F-3, F-7, F-9, F-10, and F-13 can be simulated by placing the appropriate type of bomber on a "recon" mission and F-1 and F-2 are too old. F-11, F-12, F-14, and F-15 didn't come into service until near (or after) the end of the war (I don't have precise info).

So: No - I don't think any of them are worth a slot. Still, a jet recon ...

[Don Bowen]

Two aircraft, the Vultee P-66 and Ryan Fireball, just barely missed being included in the CHS Alpha. I'm getting ready to add them now and would like advice on a few items.

P-66 Vanguard. 144 total aircraft with 39 produced by the end of 1941 and the rest soon after. 129 actually sent to China, beginning in 2/42 and all delivered by 8/42. "Many" were lost in tranist and they were not in combat until 8/43. I can either:

• Have the aircraft available 12/41 with a pool of 39 and a production of 5/month (or so??), or
• Have the aircraft available 2/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 86 and no production (equates to 1/3 operational loss).

Several Chinese squadrons used the P-66. Apparently the first were from the 3rd Fighter Group: the 7th, 8th, 28th, and 32nd Squadrons, with the 7th being the first. There were a lot of operational losses, so perhaps the best way would be to limit it to 2 squadrons (7th and 8th) and have these come up in 8/42 or perhaps a month or two before.


Ryan FR-1 Fireball. First aircraft aboard Ranger for tests in May, 1945, with 66 completed by war's end (out of an order for 800). Since the game does not know when the war will end, probably the best way is to implement the full order: 5/45 availability and a production of about 12/month. This would give 60 by the end of September. The first operational squadron was VF-66, on the Ranger, but apparently slated for deployment on the Boxer in the Pacific. Note that the Boxer's normal fighter squadron is VF-81. I can either:

• Replace VF-81 with VF-66 on the Boxer and specify upgrade to FR-1
• Ignore VF-66 and have VF-81 upgrade to the FR-1
• Leave VF-81 alone and create an additional, independent squadron VF-66, with the FR-1 appearing 5/45.

Your Ideas??

[Lemurs!]

Don where are you putting the FR in the database? i had run out of room for carrier aircraft.

Mike

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Don where are you putting the FR in the database? i had run out of room for carrier aircraft.

Mike

I ran some quick tests and it appears that slot 249 might be usable. Moved F4F-3 down there, placed Lexington 2 hexes from Pearl, and got a brief carrier battle. The Wildcat's flew!

[Lemurs!]

cool beans!

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

P-66 Vanguard[/b]. 144 total aircraft with 39 produced by the end of 1941 and the rest soon after. 129 actually sent to China, beginning in 2/42 and all delivered by 8/42. "Many" were lost in tranist and they were not in combat until 8/43.

I am assuming you mean first combat in 8/42, not 43?

[Herrbear]

Ryan FR-1 Fireball[/b]. First aircraft aboard Ranger for tests in May, 1945, with 66 completed by war's end (out of an order for 800). Since the game does not know when the war will end, probably the best way is to implement the full order: 5/45 availability and a production of about 12/month. This would give 60 by the end of September. The first operational squadron was VF-66, on the Ranger, but apparently slated for deployment on the Boxer in the Pacific. Note that the Boxer's normal fighter squadron is VF-81. I can either:

• Replace VF-81 with VF-66 on the Boxer and specify upgrade to FR-1
• Ignore VF-66 and have VF-81 upgrade to the FR-1
• Leave VF-81 alone and create an additional, independent squadron VF-66, with the FR-1 appearing 5/45.

I would choose b. Ignore VF-66 and upgrade VF-81.

[Herrbear]

P-66 Vanguard[/b]. 144 total aircraft with 39 produced by the end of 1941 and the rest soon after. 129 actually sent to China, beginning in 2/42 and all delivered by 8/42. "Many" were lost in tranist and they were not in combat until 8/43. I can either:

• Have the aircraft available 12/41 with a pool of 39 and a production of 5/month (or so??), or
• Have the aircraft available 2/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 86 and no production (equates to 1/3 operational loss).

Several Chinese squadrons used the P-66. Apparently the first were from the 3rd Fighter Group: the 7th, 8th, 28th, and 32nd Squadrons, with the 7th being the first. There were a lot of operational losses, so perhaps the best way would be to limit it to 2 squadrons (7th and 8th) and have these come up in 8/42 or perhaps a month or two before.

Your Ideas??

According the this source http://www.warbirdforum.com/dunnp664.htm Jan/Feb 43 had the following:

3rd Ftr Grp (7, 8 32, 38 Sqd) 15 P-66
5th Ftr Grp (17, 26, 27, 29 Sqd 9 P-66
11th Ftr Grp (41, 42, 43, 44 Sqd) 15 P-66

It also states that a Chinese Ftr Grp has 40 a/c, 9 in each Sqd + 4 additional.

Not sure what your max is for Chinese sqd., I would think that 3 sqd upgrade to P-66 would me more appropriate.

I also would, from your choices go with your 4th option. Avail 8/42 with 86 a/c.

Personally, I would like to see a factory producing P-66 on the big US base of 5 a/c per month beginning in 2/42 with a pool of 4 (to reach your 86) that would convert then to P-40 N in 6/43. Reduce the Build rate of P-40N by 5.

Also, I think an operational adjustment should be made for P-43 also for China as 108 sent but many operational losses.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: Herrbear

P-66 Vanguard[/b]. 144 total aircraft with 39 produced by the end of 1941 and the rest soon after. 129 actually sent to China, beginning in 2/42 and all delivered by 8/42. "Many" were lost in tranist and they were not in combat until 8/43. I can either:

• Have the aircraft available 12/41 with a pool of 39 and a production of 5/month (or so??), or
• Have the aircraft available 2/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 129 and no production, or
• Have the aircraft available 8/42 with a pool of 86 and no production (equates to 1/3 operational loss).

Several Chinese squadrons used the P-66. Apparently the first were from the 3rd Fighter Group: the 7th, 8th, 28th, and 32nd Squadrons, with the 7th being the first. There were a lot of operational losses, so perhaps the best way would be to limit it to 2 squadrons (7th and 8th) and have these come up in 8/42 or perhaps a month or two before.

Your Ideas??

According the this source http://www.warbirdforum.com/dunnp664.htm Jan/Feb 43 had the following:

3rd Ftr Grp (7, 8 32, 38 Sqd) 15 P-66
5th Ftr Grp (17, 26, 27, 29 Sqd 9 P-66
11th Ftr Grp (41, 42, 43, 44 Sqd) 15 P-66

It also states that a Chinese Ftr Grp has 40 a/c, 9 in each Sqd + 4 additional.

Not sure what your max is for Chinese sqd., I would think that 3 sqd upgrade to P-66 would me more appropriate.

I also would, from your choices go with your 4th option. Avail 8/42 with 86 a/c.

Personally, I would like to see a factory producing P-66 on the big US base of 5 a/c per month beginning in 2/42 with a pool of 4 (to reach your 86) that would convert then to P-40 N in 6/43. Reduce the Build rate of P-40N by 5.

Also, I think an operational adjustment should be made for P-43 also for China as 108 sent but many operational losses.

You could also have the P-66 Sqdns arrive as reinforcements at Karachi and stagger there arrivals to simulate the Chinese ineptitude and disintereest in transferring them to frontline bases in China. Also make them low EXP pilots in the sqdns to simulate Chineses "Conversion" to the type and generally poor pilot trainees. With low EXP pilots at the controls you're bound to see some ops losses and damaged Vanguards strung from India-Burma-China.

[Ron Saueracker]

I think I'd like the separate VF-66 as opposed to allowing VF-81 to upgrade. They were separate squadrons and VF-66, after surrender of Japan, eventually deployed to a CVE. To get this kind of flexibility, one would need the extra squadron.

Great to see these two aircraft making it in the CHS!

[Hipper]

Hi chaps

I think you're being a bit hard on the seafire I/II,

Seafire I's were a Spitfire Vb with a hook and a naval radio and a top speed of about 365 mph (just a little bit short of a spitfire V)

However spit I's only served on furious & a few escort carriers Seafire II's however had a bit more Navalisation and its top speed speed was cut to about 355 mph

Now the Seafire you are modeling seeems To be the low level L Mk II with the more powerfull engine and cropped wings which did indeed have a top speed of 333 mph but could achive most of this at low level It also a truly sparkling rate of climb of @ 4700
ft per min from sea level, The RN converted most of the Mk II's to Mk II L from March 43.

Now it seems a bit hard to me in a game that does not recognise height based performance data to use the maximum speed from the Low level version of the plane but to give it the climb performance of the high level plane

Two solutions Model the L Mk II with 333 speed and better climb performance
(I'd increase the maneuver too ) and a max altitude of 25,000 say.

or model the Mk II with the higher top speed and current climb rate and max altitude !

I realise this is all a bit fanboyish not to say Nerdish but it is accurate. [:D]

I get my data from (David ?) Browns book Seafire, the spitfire that went to sea!

He was an ex seafire pilot in WW II.

(ps I still think youve made the Sea Hurricane a bit too fast but I am not as sure of my sources as the seafire data )

[CobraAus]

History chanel again with new info to me - Have you come across this before and can we do something about it

would possible need a new icon and class of cat as night bomber and asw not as recon

Cobra Aus

[CobraAus]

bump

[Herrbear]

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

History chanel again with new info to me - Have you come across this before and can we do something about it

would possible need a new icon and class of cat as night bomber and asw not as recon

Cobra Aus

The problem with "Cats" is that only a few squadrons were called that and not all planes in the squadron were part of the "Cat" group. The others did normal things like search, rescue and so forth.

The cats are capable of attacking shipping and stuff at night. Just set the squadron to night and then go to it. I would prefer that they attack shipping at night with bombs as many did, but I think the torp load was to keep down search attacks.

[Lemurs!]

Hi all,

I have had some requests to add the C54 cargo plane to the game. There is no reason not to have it as it was the number 3 produced American cargo plane of the war.

That being said it will not be added.

We have several problems. Many cargo aircraft were busy doing missions that we can not represent in the game system ie. liason, wounded evacuation etc.
The next problem is lack of cargo to carry. The reality is that units used close to twice as much supplies by weight as this game is showing. We already lowered the capacity of every AK & AP in the game for this very reason.
I cannot see adding another cargo plane to give the Allies additional lift when everyone already has too much lift capacity.

Sorry guys.

Mike

[m10bob]

Mike,you folks have had a helluva lot to consider.I think I can survive without those C 54's..

[Lemurs!]

This is kinda a late catch but i will fix the first modeled Seafire to be either a complete IIL or a complete II.

My fault trying to be detailed a nerfing the data!

I will fix this.

Mike

[Captain Cruft]

There is a problem with Player-Defined Upgrades and the CHS. Namely, quite a few aircraft types do not appear on the upgrade lists.

Examples (off the top of my head, not comprehensive):

IJA Fighters - Ki-84-1c Frank, Ki-100
IJN Fighters - Anything later than an A6M5
IJN Level Bombers - G8N Liz
Allied Fighters - P-51H Mustang

Glens on subs are also allowed to upgrade to any type of floatplane.

It looks like the list of available planes is taken from a hard-wired slot list based on the nationality of the air group and aircraft type. I have asked on the main forum trying to confirm this.

[Tankerace]

I think I can speak to an extent on this, having just tweaked WPO's upgrades to account for it.

On the Upgrade list, planes only show up if their are 1) planes in the pool, or 2) squandrons arriving with the plane. So, if their are no Ki-84s in the pool or arriving in a squadron, that option only opens up when 1) Ki-84s arrive in the pool, or 2) a unit upgrades to the plane that in the OOB would upgrade to the Ki-84.

On the Glen, that is hardwired. There is no way to tell the game that other floatplanes cannot be flown on submarines. Even if the Glen's upgrade is frozen, players can still fill the units out with other seaplanes. Can't be helped.

To determine nationality, a squadron must arrive or upgrade to a particular plane. Eg, a USAAF Fighter Squadron arrives with P-51Ds. This tells the game that it is a US only fighter unit. Since no other Allies can upgrade to this plane, and no other allies arrive with this plane, this plane is only selectable to US Fighter units.

The PBY however, is used by both US and Canadian Squadrons (stock scen 15, Canada uses both the Cat I and PBY). As such, Canadian Cat I squadrons can "upgrade" to the US PBY if they so choose. However, I do not believe that if they do they can upgrade to PBM Mariners or PB2Y Coronados. US PBY squadrons OOBs are frozen. However, not unlike the Glen floatplane problem, players can fill out their squadrons with other US Patrol planes, such as the PBM or PB2Y Coronados.

Generally, leaving the normal upgrade paths are fine, and will not cause any harm. That is, however, unless you have a unnit of Fighter bombers upgrading to fighters. I.e., if a particular P-39 unit is scheduled to upgrade to fighters, I beleive it has to upgrade to that particular fight first, before the player upgrades can toggle fighters. Prior to that, it can only toggle fighter-bombers.

Hope that helps some.