3 years and nothing changed

[Wild Bill]

Lord have mercy, guys. This dog has been beaten to a pulp! I think most of us are agreed and those who aren't can agree to disagree. Good points by many, read and digested.

Not much we can really do about it except in our own scenario design or in the preferences menu. That is a good place ot even the odds and is easily done.

Good night, sweet theme. Life goes on and so do we.

Wild Bill

[Wild Bill]

Does anyone have a key to this door to lock it? [:D]

[KG Erwin]

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

Does anyone have a key to this door to lock it? [:D]

Bill, I'm attempting to get the key, BUT, I see no need to lock the door, yet.

[duskdeep]

I am probably the second Romanian browsing these forums.
Actually, the fact that annoys me the most is that ROmania is mistakenly written RUmania.Of course, the flag is also a major annoiance, as our country, during WW2, didn't have the communist flag displayed in the game.
I find it hard to actually rate Romanian effeciency throughout the war, as we were disadvantaged by the fact that we were caught between the hammer and the anvil:Germans and Soviets.We didn't have any real option as whom to ally with, and also both nations neglected us badly.The Soviets had their obvious reasons: us fighting them and also the historical conflicts between Romania and Russia (as a side note, probably if Romanians were to vote their most hated nation, they would almost surely vote the Russians...). But Germans didn't have any objective reasons to disconsider a quite powerful ally, economically speaking at least.So it is quite hard to actually rate the Romanian Army, as we were mainly used as cannon-fodder by our more powerful allies.
I have to agree with what Tropsbor said:the Romanian army's morale was high.As far as our history goes, we didn't chicken out in front of the enemy. We were actually used to fighting until the bitter end while defending our contry against our more powerful neighbours. So ,of all things, we didn't lack courage on the battlefield.
As far as experience is concerned, I have to agree once more with Tropsbor.Even in the first World War, we were caught off-guard by the conflict.I don't think WW2 was any different.We clearly lacked e.g. the German War Machine's capability of effeciently training our average troops.Experience should stay the same, maybe set a bit higher for the average soldier, but this poses a problem because of actual game modelling.
With these being said, I apologize for my spelling/grammar mistakes and I hope I stayed on subject.

[Puukkoo]

Thank you, duskdeep!

From now on and forever I shall write Romania and Romanians. BTW In Finnish I have always written Romania and romanialaiset. I thought the other way was just some English convention.

About that hammer and anvil I also know what you mean.

[chief]

duskdeep:
These forums have some very skilled people who if they saw what then proper ROMANIAN WW2 Natinal Flag was might just be able to make it up so it could be used as a corrected replacement for the existing flag. You'd be surprised what some people can do with a gif or similar program.

Just a thought, any volunteers for this project ????????I wish I was that talented and had the proper programs.[8D]

[Alby]

Could one of you post the correct flag here?
I wouold like to use it.

[duskdeep]

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ro-roygv.html
The war flag and ensign image seems to be the saffest bet.
Hope it's accurate.

[Alby]

this one??

[duskdeep]

Yes, I think that that is the right one...Anyway, it's far more accurate than the current one[:)]

[Tropsbor]

I stumbled across the campaign journal of a 2nd lieutenant from the 3rd Mountain Division who participated in the fights for the Taman bridgehead. Here's an excerpt:

http://www.worldwar2.ro/memorii/?article=104
February. 6th Mountain Battalion is relieved due to tiredness and physical exhaustion, by 5th "Moti" Battalion, with the exception of the sector of Reconnaissance Company, that was taken by a company of 116th German Infantry Regiment, commanded by Lt. Lang, a neighbor in my left for two months. The commander of the battalion, Cpt. Kraus, is impressed by the sight of the battlefield and he congratulate me for the way I organized and conducted the defense on this 1000 meters front during the 10 days of fierce fighting.
Indeed, in front of 6th Mountain Battalion, after it was replaced, were found over 5000 bodies. Between January 26 and February 4 1943, 6th Mountain Battalion was attacked by three infantry divisions, one independent brigade and one tank brigade. Of the 50 tanks that took part in the battle, 36 were destroyed inside and in front of the battalion's position. At displacement time, Reconnaissance Company had 85 men, out of 100 at the beginning of the Russian offensive. The losses were: 5 dead and 10 wounded. Following these glorious battles, 6th Mountain Battalion "Beius" is congratulated by the commander of "Wetzel" Group, and by Gen. von Schleinitz, commander of 9th Infantry Division to which it was subordinated, and he name the battalion "the prussian battalion".
On February 4 1943, after replacement, 6th Mountain Battalion moves to Abinskaya as division's reserve, for rest and recovery.

Now compare that to this...

I tried to recreate a battle during the 1st soviet assault on the taman bridgehead (from 25 February to 12 March 1943). I bought 1 Heavy Weapons Company (with 3x50mm ATG), 1 Mountain Company and a 105mm howitzer. For the Soviets, I bought 1 T-34 (m.43) Company, 2 Engineer Platoons, 2 Rifle Companies, scouts, 82mm and 120mm mortars. The shit hit the fan as soon as turn 1. Soviet artillery fire caused one of my ATG crew to abandon their gun and the Tank hunters (armed with mines) that I placed on each side of the road run 50 yards back in front of Soviet T-34's despite that no shot was fired. One of the 50mm ATG manages to knock out a T-34, but with only one or two shots allowed per turn it's extremely difficult to destroy a T-34, let alone touch it. At this point my ATG's become useless. Soviets tanks spotted them and quickly put them out of service. Once again, the crews run leaving their guns behind despite that they didn't suffer any casualties. Of the mountain rifle company I bought, only one squad (out of 10) actually stood its ground when a T-34 moved in an adjacent hex. The rest of the battle consisted of me waiting for the suppresion level to drop (impossible to rally; in the information screen, rally is set to 0 for everyone) while T-34's reduced my forces to nothing. The whole battle resembeled a rape scene. I don't think we need more proof that something is not in ordnung. [:D] Also please note that the forces involved on the romanian side in this battle were "elite infantry" who get +10 morale/experience bonus. Now imagine regular forces. Gulp! [X(]

[Tropsbor]

So far into the battle I knocked out only one tank and caused one soviet rifle squad to disperse after one ZB-53 team ripped it apart. After this I lost all control over my troops but what bothered me most was that only one shot from a T-34 sufficed to make my ATG crews leave their gun emplacement.

[Terminus]

It really is too bad that a legitimate grievance can get drowned out by a rude and uncouth delivery (not from you, Tropsbor).

[Puukkoo]

The problem in the average ratings of the nation is that they are all designed for green troops. In creating a historical scenario the ratings should be boosted to meet actual requirements. I've desingned some scenarios too and even if I tend to favor default ratings I give some units a little extra.

If I bought Finnish 7th Infantry Regiment in 1944 I get guys whose experience is about 60, althought the historical ratings should in that special case be something about 85. I presume that the same is due with the Romanians, for I don't believe that those guys in your battle account were fighting their first combat mission.

Anyway I feel that we need more historical scenarios with Romanians.

As for the Hungarians we have 'Thunder at Banya Bass' that gives us some pretty tough Madgyars.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It really is too bad that a legitimate grievance can get drowned out by a rude and uncouth delivery (not from you, Tropsbor).

Roger that.It sure as Hell prompted MY response and set the tone for much later comments, I suspect............
I look forward to being able to use the correct Romanian flag........

[Sturmpionier]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It really is too bad that a legitimate grievance can get drowned out by a rude and uncouth delivery

It wasn't just rude, it was hilarious. Some people (a lot of people) got put off by the confrontational and acerbic tone, but I found it funny, partly b/c small-minded people are funny (small people in general are also funny which is why the circus is still around today.)

Seriously Duskdeep, (for once) I have some questions about this whole ROmania notion. I will take your word for it that ROmania is the proper spelling (just as you should take mine if I stated "Well, it's actually Amerrica") but I wonder where the RO/RU discrepancy originated? Can you shed any light on this? I know the Turks called the whole Christian population in that neck of the world "Rum" for their relationship to the Eastern Roman Empire. But, that was ages back. Also, does Romania use a Latin alphabet? I suspect yes, but it also wouldn't surprise me to find out that Romanians use a Cyrilic type of alphabet. If that (Cyrilic) is the case, is RUmania just an error of transliteration? Is it a long "o" or a short "o"? Too many questions, but my curious mind won't let me rest (I worked on the history of Hungary in grad school.)

I too noticed the flag issue a while ago when surfing the 'minor' nations. It didn't seem to make sense to me either, but I also did not know what the proper flag should look like. Kudos to you.

[Tropsbor]

I guess that experience isn't too off the mark (perhaps it should be increased a little), but since they are designed for green troops, this penalizes the professional soldiers like you said. So low, the +10 morale/exp bonus has absolutely no effect. I found that an elite dedicated 81mm mortar squad had 21 exp in 1943. But morale is an even bigger issue. It's hard to put an estimate, but it was definitely higher than what WAW would have us believe, especially in 1941 when the romanians were eager to recover the lands lost with the Molotov-von Ribbentrop pact. Later on, morale still remained high despite the debacle at Stalingrad. This can be shown by the fact that after spring 1943, only Romanians and Finns stayed to man the fronts. Anyway, I'm tired of this thread. [:D] My last words are that these ratings need to be revised.

EOM

[Orzel Bialy]

ORIGINAL: Sturmpionier

Seriously Duskdeep, (for once) I have some questions about this whole ROmania notion. I will take your word for it that ROmania is the proper spelling (just as you should take mine if I stated "Well, it's actually Amerrica") but I wonder where the RO/RU discrepancy originated? Can you shed any light on this? I know the Turks called the whole Christian population in that neck of the world "Rum" for their relationship to the Eastern Roman Empire. But, that was ages back. Also, does Romania use a Latin alphabet? I suspect yes, but it also wouldn't surprise me to find out that Romanians use a Cyrilic type of alphabet. If that (Cyrilic) is the case, is RUmania just an error of transliteration? Is it a long "o" or a short "o"? Too many questions, but my curious mind won't let me rest (I worked on the history of Hungary in grad school.)

Courtesy of: http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Rumanian/index.html
English uses both forms, Rumanian and Romanian, to denote the Romance-speaking population in the South-Eastern Europe north of the Danube, which was traditionally referred as Vlachs (or Wallachians). Both forms were adopted by the mid 19th century when the principalities of Wallachia and Moldova were unified to form a new state, Rumania or Romania. The forms Rumania and Rumanian were prevailing till the second half of the 20th century, when the forms with "o" gradually became more popular.

It seems that the forms with "u" are etymologically justified, as Rumanian normally changes the unstressed (Vulgar) Latin "o" to "u", cf.:

The form Rumân was the natural form used in Rumanian itself till the second half of the 19th century. The neighbouring languages (like Bulgarian, Serbian, Russian, Polish etc.) use the form with "u", and French for its part established the spelling Roumain, Roumanie. Spanish adopted the forms Rumania and Rumano and such was initially the practice in Italian. German has Rumänien, Rumäne and rumänisch.
The form with "o" was introduced in Rumania to stress the descendency of the Rumanians from the ancient Romans; this orthographic change happened by the time of the unification of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in the unitary kingdom of Rumania. In this period Cyrillic script was replaced by Latin and the language was heavily re-latinized.

The Rumanian state since then always promote the spelling with "o", even in the foreign languages, and finally English also accepted it as official. Italian also changed the orthography, from "Rumania" to "Romenia"; modern Portuguese also uses the forms Romenia and Romeno.

On Orbis Latinus the forms with "u" are preferred in order to distinguish Rumania, the modern state, from Romania, the historical name of the Roman empire, which is used now by the linguists to denote all the countries where Romance languages are spoken. These preferences are only technical and are based on the established practices of English. The usage of the forms Rumania and Rumanian are in no way attended to offend the modern state and nation which have preserved through centuries the Roman name.

There you go. [8D]

[mogami]

Hi, When you design a scenario you are not required to use the default ratings. You can change them during the set up. So you can have elite minor troops. When you play a long campaign you can use minor troops (I've played campaigns with almost every country) Your core force should be elite long before the end. (unless you stink as a commander)

[Puukkoo]

Although I know some Latin and Romance languages I don't know exactly how the country name Romania is pronounced by the Romanians. The evidence however suggests that u-form is more colloquial than the o-form.

Language questions are usually surprisingly political in nature as Orzel Bialy presented:

The form with "o" was introduced in Rumania to stress the descendency of the Rumanians from the ancient Romans; this orthographic change happened by the time of the unification of the principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia in the unitary kingdom of Rumania. In this period Cyrillic script was replaced by Latin and the language was heavily re-latinized.

If I were Romanian, I would definitely stress Roman descendancy too. The re-latinizing of the language is much the same as in Greece they have katharéousa and dhimotikí. The former is re-classicised literal language and the latter spoken everyday language.