How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ?

[hawker]

I cannot believe my eyes,Mdiehl try to convince everybody that Sherman (any Sherman) is better then Tiger.
My god,what a BS.
SHERMAN IS NO MATCH FOR TIGER.
Maybe in your imagination Mdiehl.

[mdiehl]

Omigod omigod I cannoot believe mye eyes <swoon>. Now Hawker try to convince everybody that the PzII is superior to the KV-1! Omigod. This is BS. PzII is no match for a KV-1. Maybe in your imagination Hawker.

[Demosthenes]

Just forthe record (again I think), the PZKW VIE Heavy Tank was - one on one - a better tank than an M4A3 (75) Medium in an open country gun duel...I don't think anyone (read Mdieh) has ever disputed that pertinent fact.
However, the M4 medium series, in total as a weapon system, did have advantages over the PZKW VI in general - when one takes into account such elements as - numbers, mechanical reliability, and an upgraded main armament to the 76mm gun (especially with APCR ammunition).

There are, and were, circumstances when numerous M4s, could and did - outmanuver and close with Tigers and put holes in them.... I think that was the only point ever made, along with the statement that 49,000 M4 mediums is worth a lot more than 1200 Tigers.

[keeferon01]

OMG guys a tank debate will last for ever , there is one going on over at the paradox forum for ever [:D]

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron James

OMG guys a tank debate will last for ever , there is one going on over at the paradox forum for ever [:D]

I was wondering if we should move this debate! lol[:D]

[keeferon01]

looks like you know your tanks demosthenes, you ever tried HPS Kursk'43 that simulates that bloody tank battle very well .

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ron James

looks like you know your tanks demosthenes, you ever tried HPS Kursk'43 that simulates that bloody tank battle very well .

I have looked over HPS's Panzer Campaigns (longingly)...I'll have to try it one of these days...but I think I may try North Africa first, before jumping into the massive scale of the Eastern Front (too many units - Oi Veh![:D])

[Ursa MAior]

Jesus Christ!! I cant believe my eyes! For which reason M4 got his nickname from the germans (Tommy cooker?)? It was as easy to set aflame as the g4m betyy aka ronson. The Tiger was a good weapon but the much neglected Panther has surpassed it (protection firepower mobility). Tiger II was nothing but a moving fortress. Yeah the alleis has won the war but the men who fought on their sides, would ashame themselves by seeing their offspring hehaving like the enemy they fought.

[mdiehl]

Jesus Christ!! I cant believe my eyes!

<-->

would ashame themselves by seeing their offspring hehaving like the enemy they fought.

Physician, cure thyself.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Jesus Christ!! I cant believe my eyes! For which reason M4 got his nickname from the germans (Tommy cooker?)? It was as easy to set aflame as the g4m betyy aka ronson. The Tiger was a good weapon but the much neglected Panther has surpassed it (protection firepower mobility). Tiger II was nothing but a moving fortress. Yeah the alleis has won the war but the men who fought on their sides, would ashame themselves by seeing their offspring hehaving like the enemy they fought.

Hmmm, Tommy Cooker...as in burning tank?
You mean like this Tiger?

[Ursa MAior]

You guys are simply unbelievable. There is an expression for both of you : imperial arrogance. I dont really have anything to say to you. Where is that damend ignore button ?

[Fishbed]

But as it stood the ME-262 was inferior in every useful respect to both the P-51,

Well that's not a goddam "inferior" "superior" debate - these planes simply don't perform the same mission, we're talking about an interceptor and an escort fighter, the later is made to shoot down the first, the first is made to shoot down bombers. But in a bomber-straff run, any plane is a sitting duck, the point is that a Schwalbe is less a sitting duck than other planes as he does it faster...
Maybe that's why these are Doras protecting the Me-262 landings and take-off, not the opposite? [;)]

I mean, ok, in this case, the He111 is inferior to a Gladiator, B-17 to a 190, and Marilyn Monroe to Bill Clinton...

And please don't talk about re-allocating ressources to the Tank's last toy neither - and take a look at the dates, I don't really believe there was something left to save in this war for the german side at the time the first TA-152 shot down its first allied plane... [;)]

AJ

[mdiehl]

You guys are simply unbelievable. There is an expression for both of you : imperial arrogance. I dont really have anything to say to you. Where is that damend ignore button

You're doing a fine job making a mockery of yourself. Do carry on please.

[Fishbed]

You guys are simply unbelievable. There is an expression for both of you : imperial arrogance. I dont really have anything to say to you. Where is that damend ignore button ?

And why don't we talk about yours?

Yeah the alleis has won the war but the men who fought on their sides, would ashame themselves by seeing their offspring hehaving like the enemy they fought.

Is there anything being ashamed of overwhelming with number a technologically superior enemy, fighting the wartool of the Nazis while the later are extermining people in camps or burning villages next door?
I guess no. Im just sad the offspring was not even bigger to put an end to this quicker...

AJ

[mdiehl]

Well that's not a goddam "inferior" "superior" debate - these planes simply don't perform the same mission, we're talking about an interceptor and an escort fighter, the later is made to shoot down the first, the first is made to shoot down bombers.

That works for me. I'm not the fellow who tried to assert that the ME-262 was superior to every Allied fighter of the day. As a bomber buster the ME-262 was damned good. That said, if the Axis could have built, say, lots of FW-190s in lieu of fewer ME-262s the FW-190s were a better interceptor for the job (and in other ways better all around as fighters).

Maybe it's true that it was cheaper to build two of those mediocre Jumo turbofans than one FW190 engine but my impression is otherwise.

[hawker]

You guys are simply unbelievable. There is an expression for both of you : imperial arrogance. I dont really have anything to say to you. Where is that damend ignore button ?

Ursa,why you bother. You cant explain facts to some people,they are no guilty because of that. Just ignore them.
When someone say that Sherman is better than Tiger and P-51 is better than ME-262 the best you can do (if you smart) run away from this thread. Dont read,dont post,just run away. When stupidity rule smart people run.
I will no longer bother with them.

[mdiehl]

When stupidity rule smart people run.

Well then, you're in a real pickle. There's no place for you to run from yourself.

I will no longer bother with them.

You've made this promise before. We all wish you'd keep it.

[Fishbed]

Ursa,why you bother. You cant explain facts to some people,they are no guilty because of that. Just ignore them.
When someone say that Sherman is better than Tiger and P-51 is better than ME-262 the best you can do (if you smart) run away from this thread. Dont read,dont post,just run away. When stupidity rule smart people run.
I will no longer bother with them.

Well maybe you should question your own behavior from time to time too - cuz when we were deep into your goddam "Bismarck vs the World" delirium, I saw nobody "running away", nor telling you you were just "stupid" and we were "smart"...
Not telling about the simple bad faith of repeting ad nauseam that the other "side" said the Sherman was a tiger eater for instance - mdiehl clearly stated he didn't put into question Tiger's supremacy in open fields, while we're bound to believe like him that without proper support indeed everywhere else it is in jeopardy of being flanked. In the same fashion, he admitted we can't talk about a plane being superior to another as long as they are not supposed to conduct the same kind of missions (and even if indeed we saw more Schwalbes downed by Mustangs than the opposite btw) so why adding nonsense insult to the complaining...

That's somewhat childish, don't you think?

AJ

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

BTW, i don't want to be rude, really, but if everyting american was better why they employ Werner von Braun... IIRC both American and Soviets wanted german scienists....

Owing to difficulties faced by his employer, Von Braun happened to be available at the time. Without him the US missile program would have required maybe 18 months more to accomplish what we did. After all, the Redstone was no technological marvel, and despite being a Von Braun design it had plenty of teething problems (most of which featured the rocket flipping fins over nose and blowing up on or near the launch pad).

The US was ahead of Germany in light rockets. We had a proximity fused ground to air missile that would have made flak pretty much obsolete in 1944 if the Axis had been decent enough to give us a strategic bomber to shoot at. By 1945 we had a radio guided one. By 1947 a radar guided one.

I knew it that you will find the answer on that. How i could be so blind to think that Werner and other German scienist were so neccesery for American space program. Without them they american program would take only 18 months more to send man on the Moon....

O stupid Pauk....

PS as for "plenty of teething problems" it seems that only Russians (and the Chinese too) are capable to send man in the space these days.... hmmmm....

[Fishbed]

PS as for "plenty of teething problems" it seems that only Russians (and the Chinese too) are capable to send man in the space these days.... hmmmm....

Im with Pauk, but one must watch records of Chinese rockets trials over the 40 last years to see how much progress they made, you have everything from the one which forgets to ignite and take off, to the other who makes it for 500m, turns upside down and goes back home. Rocketry's not cool when you have no-one to help you!

I mean, living next to an ICBM launch site is stressing enough without fearing the bug to play it nasty at the startup [:D] - but credits for everything that was done until now is to be given to Chinese scientists only, especially after the divorce with USSR, even if I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some former-USSR scientists joined the chinese team after the break-up...

AJ