PzB vs Wobbly - Clash of Steel

[kkoovvoo]

20 liberators scoring 11 hits on your CVs... [8|] It seems you did exactly what he wanted.


But you achieved really good fighters loss ratio - 5 Japs for 4 Allied in 09/43 is awesome.


Btw, will you replace your lost zekes by disbanding landbased zekes into them or will you train inexperienced crews?

[Rob Brennan UK]

WOW .. shame about the vulnerable CVE's and CVL's .. but thata a big bite out of the allied fighter strength. the corsair isnt indestructable after all [;)].. i wonder how experienced geroges will cope with that beast ? i would expect them to be rather good imo.

real shame you missed the carriers ?? when was he thinking ? unloading the a/c and having no CAP ? very bizarre.

looks like you have stalled him here . kaviang looks solid and if your scaring off his Cv's it bodes well for a prolonged defensive fight.

facinating AAR as ever .. [&o]

[Cpt Sherwood]

Looking at how few F6Fs he lost, I would expect him to return and try to hit your CVs again. That is what I would probably do, time to attack, before you can transfer those aircraft from China.

[Sneer]

awesome emotions

[PzB74]

I got several Zeke Daitais that have finished training in China, including the one with 48 ac. 77 exp by now!
I'm simply replacing the standard carrier groups with other carrier capable groups until the mother group has been retrained.
If it had been possible to transfer pilots I would have done so but the game doesn't allow it.

The kill ratio was fairly good, but remember that they came to me this time. It's always favorable to engage the enemy as far from his
bases as possible. I've learned quite a bit from these engagements and this experience will be put to good use in the 1944 campaigns.

Andy said he had stood his carrier CAP down by mistake [&:] Could have cost him big time. The reason why not more Bettys went after them
was a range restriction. I didn't want my bombers to fly away to attack PT boats of Lunga [:'(] A more flexible menu would have allowed them to
always attack high value ships like carriers. E.g attack all shipping within 6 hexes and all cl, ca, bb and cv's at any range.

If Andy comes after me he will meet a torrent of steel at Truk! Already got 200 fighters there and I sincerely doubt his few carriers will
assault my castle. Not yet, not yet [;)]

Got visitors, so todays turns is a bit delayed!
Thx for the input [8D]

[PzB74]

Argh, almost finished the turn..then kaboom! Shite crashed [:o]
It still does so on occasion, saved it some way into the turn but no time to finish it tonight.
Here's the combat report though!

Andy sent his carriers back towards the Admiralities and finished 2 of the sinking light carriers.
(1 cve Kaiyo and 1 cvl Zuiho). The Junyo, Chitose Shoho were also hit hard but aren't sinking yet.
May be able to save one of the latter.

A nasty setback to my escort carrier division [:(]
No time to cry over spilt milk...

I've disbanded the KB into port and moved most strike ac ashore. At Truk there are currently:
300 fighters (104 trained, the rest semi trained)
250 dive bombers - all trained
131 torpedo bombers - all trained
123 Betties - all trained
170 Sallies - semi trained

Some 1000 ac in all: would be nice if Andy moved closer [;)]
Another 150 fighters will arrive tomorrow.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 09/17/43

Air Combat

Day Air attack on TF, near Mussau Island at 60,83

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 13

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CV Junyo, Bomb hits 10, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Mussau Island at 60,83

Allied aircraft - few fighters here...
F6F Hellcat x 29
Corsair IV x 4
SBD Dauntless x 94
TBM Avenger x 79

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 1 destroyed
TBM Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CVL Zuiho, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage *sunk*
CVE Kaiyo, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage *sunk*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Mussau Island at 60,83

Allied aircraft
B-25J Mitchell x 4

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Shoho, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-25J Mitchell attacking at 100 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Mussau Island at 60,83

Allied aircraft
P-40N Warhawk x 5
B-25J Mitchell x 4

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
DD Hayate, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-25J Mitchell bombing at 10000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Mussau Island at 60,83

Allied aircraft
A-20G Havoc x 6

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AK Batopaha Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Emirau Island at 60,84

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 25
Corsair IV x 4
SBD Dauntless x 100
TBM Avenger x 54

No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CVL Chitose, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[castor troy]

Again a far to accurate B17 attack!! 13 bombers scoring 10 hits on CV Junyo? Now Allied fanboys, how do you explain that? Oh yes, it was designed as an anti ship weapon also. I just wonder why those 4E monsters in reality didn´t hit a factory complex from a height of 10000 feet but 10 out of 13 bombers hit a CV from, I suppose, 6000 feet. And this thing was moving, probably not straight ahead and at full speed. In my games 4E bombers have the best hit rate of all bombers, bombing from 6000 feet....

4E bombers should not be allowed to do naval attacks!

[Cpt Sherwood]

Well, they should be allowed to but they really shouldn't be so effective. If an IJN player knows he doesn't have to worry about 4e bombers on Naval Attack then he can use that knowledge when in RL they did have to take them into account.

If I remember right there is a chance for each bomb to score a hit, so bombers with lots of bombs usually hit, they probably should have just had once chance to hit but then some chances that one bomber could hit with more than one bomb.

[pauk]

Level bombers shouldn't be so effective, we all know that. The main problem here is bad design. Once when bombers crew pass 70, 75 exp they start hiting enemy ships. If they are over 80 exp they are deadly. Same goes for Japanese.

Of course, Allies are in more than favourable position there: 4E bombers have biger range then Sallys, bigger load, they are harder to shot down, have 2000 lb bombs[:(], etc....

These hits are result of Allied fanboy club and great example what happens when issue is fixed one-sided, "in fragments". Allied fanboys screamed all around the forum for bigger bombs and they got them. OK, "historical argumentation" here and i have nothing against it. But I do have if other issues in air model aren't corrected fairly.

[castor troy]

Just two possibilities: let them on naval attack and see hit rates of 70%+ like in this example (very realistically and historical correct[>:]), or make up a house rule to not allow them to do naval attacks (what they "normally" didn´t do in RL). We all know that the 4E bombers weren´t that accurate. If they would have been those uber super flying weapons I wonder why still tac bombers and fighter bombers were built. Some strategists dreamt about that 4E bombers could win the war on their own. In real life the dreamt about it, but in WITP as it is now they´re able to sink and destroy everything within half a year if it´s in range. I´m just waiting for games to come into 43 to see dozens of 2000 lb bomb hits and the Allied fanboys screaming: "Give us 5000 lb bombs, they were available in real life!" And the 4E bombers became stronger and stronger with all the patches (this is what makes me wonder the most!!).

Just strange that there´s only the 250 kg bomb for naval attacks for the Japs and the 500 kg bomb even doesn´t exist. But I know an Allied player will tell me, that the Japs have 800 kg bombs - but just for port attack. Or, the Japs have torps. Well the Allied also have torps but they don´t need them because it´s far more comfortable to send in 150 B17, B24 on naval attack and get between 50 and 150 hits... I´m playing the Allied side too, with my 4Es not on naval attack. And guess what, the Allied side still wins...

I know the Japs were worried about 4E bombers hitting their ships, but mainly in port (which is obviously hard enough -> remember the Tirpitz??).

In my oppinion the best ship killers should be: dive bombers and torpedoe bombers followed by tac bombers and fighter bombers and at least and only as a temporary solution the 4E bombers.

Perhaps one of the experts can bring up a statistic how many hits 2 and 4E bombers achived from 6000 feet and above on fast moving warships. This should end all this blah blah if they were good or not. And perhaps the hit rate of 4E bombers from 6000 feet+ would be: 0,3 %. Just a guess!

[HarryM]

The Junyo was already heavily damaged. How fast was it moving?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: HarryM

The Junyo was already heavily damaged. How fast was it moving?

You´re correct! Just checked: Junyo was hit by 6 bombs before. Probably 500lb bombs? But she was able to move, between 10 and 15 knots perhaps when under attack? But the 4E bombers also hit faster moving CVs also with a loopsided hitrate. I´ve lost a CVE against 4E bombers that moved 28 knots.

[PzB74]

The Junyo was heavily damaged - travelling at 11 knots or so!
No doubt heavies are formidable ship killers in this game, should be toned down by 50-60%.

My ships were mostly hurt/sunk by SBDs, so 4Es were not the cause of the ditch this time. I'm aware of how deadly
they are and is trying to take action accordingly. Things just doesn't always work out when the enemy outnumbers you in the
air - in both quality and quantity.

Will redouble my efforts to re-organize the fleet and prepare for the coming storms. Andy will no doubt feel vigorated by now, and
this will make him even more eager to advance quickly. I can't afford anymore offensives, but the Empire still got sharp teeth [;)]
The defensive chain running from Timor to the Home Islands is almost complete and the forward defenses will hold out as long as possible
to delay the Allied offensive.

[Tom Hunter]

I agree completely that the heavy bombers hit far too often.

It is also my impression that medium bombers were used on shipping strikes much more often than heavies.

I recall that the bomber group that trained up to be very accurate (not possible in WitP) by bombing hulks off Australia and then murdered a Japanese convoy in the Bismark sea (also not really possible in WitP) was flying B25s.

Does anyone know what the actual hit -sinking rate was for experienced twin engine and 4 engine bomber groups?

[HarryM]

Not a large sample of data but they were somewhat effective. The strafing and skip-bombing B-25s and A-20s were much more deadly.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug1996/0896victory.asp


"On March 2, the vessels were again sighted heading from the Bismarck Sea toward the Vitiaz Strait. When a force of twenty-nine B-17s hit the convoy, a large merchant vessel was sunk, two others damaged, and a destroyer was set on fire. The Flying Fortresses were attacked by thirty Japanese fighters, three of which were shot down. Ten Allied bombers were riddled with holes, but all returned to their base at Port Moresby.

Later that day, the convoy consisted of six warships and ten merchant vessels. They were attacked by nine B-17 s that eliminated two merchantmen and damaged another. One intercepting fighter was shot down; again, all bombers returned safely."

So that is 38 sorties by B-17s. Results 4 sunk and 4 damaged.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: HarryM

Not a large sample of data but they were somewhat effective. The strafing and skip-bombing B-25s and A-20s were much more deadly.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug1996/0896victory.asp


"On March 2, the vessels were again sighted heading from the Bismarck Sea toward the Vitiaz Strait. When a force of twenty-nine B-17s hit the convoy, a large merchant vessel was sunk, two others damaged, and a destroyer was set on fire. The Flying Fortresses were attacked by thirty Japanese fighters, three of which were shot down. Ten Allied bombers were riddled with holes, but all returned to their base at Port Moresby.

Later that day, the convoy consisted of six warships and ten merchant vessels. They were attacked by nine B-17 s that eliminated two merchantmen and damaged another. One intercepting fighter was shot down; again, all bombers returned safely."

So that is 38 sorties by B-17s. Results 4 sunk and 4 damaged.

The link doesn´t work for me. And they did that from 6000 feet??

[HarryM]

It doesn't indicate the altitude, but I would assume it was medium, ~10000.

This is also interesting....

"Major Benn is credited by General Kenney with developing skip bombing into a fine art. He experimented with different bomb sizes, timed fuses, and approaches to targets. He led one skip-bombing raid with a half-dozen B-17s at low altitude and sent six enemy ships to the bottom. According to Kenney, "Skip bombing became the standard, sure way of destroying shipping, not only in Bill's bombardment squadron but throughout the Fifth Air Force.""

Skip-bombing with a B-17? Pretty ballsy manoever...

[mdiehl]

Junyo had already taken serious damage. Abstracted this could mean problems with steering control. Might be stuck going in a straight line for example. Under such circumstances a B-17 from 6K-12K feet might well hit with an entire Salvo a target that was moving 10 knots. The problem wasn't hitting a moving target. The problem was the amount of time a target could have to turn to evade a bomb salvo. If Junyo's stuck in Suzuki Samurai mode (it really does a good job going in a straight line), 10 bomb hits may not be very wierd at all.

[castor troy]

10000 ft??? This would be 3000m! Hitting a fast moving ship from 3000 m?? This is possible?

[HarryM]

The article doesn't indicate the altitude, unfortunately. It could be lower. If the B-25s and A-20s were hitting from sea-level then maybe the AAA environment was not too bad, and they could have been lower than 10K.