When?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

No disagreement at all with what you say, your right on as always but come on six years.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

I see that you edited your post from calling everyone who disagreed with you from a LIAR to a PROCRASTINATOR. Those of us who receve this thread by email know what you put in your original post; but we also just consider the source.

I appreciate it if you would reconsider the source, I am honest with my feelings to the core ABJ, I dont sugar coat, I dont really try to hurt anyones feelings except maybe Matrix for whom I blame for this travesty of time to make a game, I did put liar in there and then thought about it and did something I never thought I would do back down from my feelings and my common sense, and I noticed instead of commenting on the rest of my post you instead tried to discredit me with a change I made to soften my words but now I wish I had not done so. If the shoe fits WEAR IT!

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I propose that we give Steve the Ironman award. After all he has stuck to this program with extreme dilligence. Even in the face of adversity his skin must be made of Iron or Steel to ignore a lot of these posts. Or, he must have one heck of a good sense of humor and constantly rolls on the floor in laughter at some of these posts. In which case maybe we should pay for a hip replacement.

Anyways, I have said this over and over. 
It will be done when it is done. 
By the way does anyone get the feeling the Crussdaddy may also be Werewolf. The tone and the style of writing seems very similiar to me anyways? Just a thought.

You know in sports what someone calling a person a homer means, well the Phila. Eagles could sure use you because most of Philly is down on them.[:D] Good thing there not playing Matrix saturday night. Phew I could imagine what you would come up with.

Bo

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: abj9562

ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

I see that you edited your post from calling everyone who disagreed with you from a LIAR to a PROCRASTINATOR. Those of us who receve this thread by email know what you put in your original post; but we also just consider the source.

I appreciate it if you would reconsider the source, I am honest with my feelings to the core ABJ, I dont sugar coat, I dont really try to hurt anyones feelings except maybe Matrix for whom I blame for this travesty of time to make a game, I did put liar in there and then thought about it and did something I never thought I would do back down from my feelings and my common sense, and I noticed instead of commenting on the rest of my post you instead tried to discredit me with a change I made to soften my words but now I wish I had not done so. If the shoe fits WEAR IT!

Bo

Your right I did not comment on your entire post. I took offense that you assume some people are LIAR's. That is inflammatory and derogatory. I feel that everyone has a right to an opinion and therefore did not agree or disagree with your post . Therefore no comment was made regarding the rest of your post. But now you have taken the step of a derogatory attack on me and I do not appreciate that one bit. I am therefore requesting the moderator take action against you. It is one thing to have an opinion and another to intentionally attack someone.

I wanted to add this to my post. This is excerpted from the forum rules and the applicable portions are listed below:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/register.asp

No foul language or any type of language that would be consider abusive this includes any materials which are knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, sexual oriented, vulgar, obscene, hateful, harassing, profane, racist, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or that otherwise violates any local, state, national or international law or regulation.

No Trolling. Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the message board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion; it only encourages personal attacks and will not be tolerated.

No rude or disrespectful posts to or about any forum moderators or Matrix Games Staff. We will not tolerate any forum member acting in this manner.

[Anendrue]

Sorry for second post. Considering the source was meant as a reference to your relatively new membership in April and your expierance in these forums over time.

[wworld7]

Some people keep harping on a business model that from thier own words shows a lack of understanding the software business. To imply that Matrix did not allocate the proper resources to the project is based upon what they wish for and not reality. ADG and Matrix have a contract (for Matrix to publish a product), Matrix and Steve have a contract (for Steve to create a product). Outside these three major players anyone can comment pro or con on the project, and that is fine.

Yet, since they did not have input on either of these contracts and have no financial stake (or actual knowledge of the financials) to say the proper resources were not committed is at best an uninformed opinion, and at worse, a whine.

They have proved nothing beyond an opinion that lacks facts. Everyone knows that this project will take more time to complete. This does not confirm proper resources were not committed, it only means it is not finished yet. It appears that to complete the project and have an acceptable return-on-investment (ROI) has required more time than many people want. That people are upset is understandable, but that does not change the facts of this project one bit. Some people say "add more staff" but this doesn't work for Matrix or Steve if the ROI goes negative. This fact cannot be changed.

Software is not like building a normal product like say a table or a TV set, people don't like to hear this, and many don't understand why, but it is reality. COST vs RETURN requires INFORMED balance to succeed and have a profitable ROI.

Am I happy it is not finished yet, no.
Will it be finished in 2010, I hope so.
Is there another publisher/programmer that is beating down the doors of ADG, Matrix or Steve to take it over this financial risk, I doubt it.

A person posting that it does not meet his or her expectations is fine, repeating them just turns into is just a childish WHINE.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

Sorry for second post. Considering the source was meant as a reference to your relatively new membership in April and your expierance in these forums over time.

Bull explain source, it means exactly what you meant. I am not good at sugar coating like some people are and the words consider the source is as derogatory as you can get no matter how you now explain your meanings, arent you the one sorta saying Werwolf and Crussdaddy are one and the same, I guess thats not derogatory huh! FYI I joined these forums at least 5 years ago and read them and posted under Willycube for years, when I changed to Verizon it got messed up and I had to change my name if that matters and I called no one liars I was reffering that people are lying to themselves if none of this bothers them. And please if you have the power to have me banned then go to it. I guess freedom of speech is not in your vocabulary. You dont like anyone with a negative feeling about the process thats going on here and anyone who stands up against the good olde boys network here had better be careful or they will be be banned. I was always positive here until the half baked completion dates that were posted with no hope of completing them at that time. July 2009, Nov 2009 remember them and a few others. I will not comment on any more of your posts not out of fear but because we have very different points of views which I guess will never be settled to any ones satisfaction.

Bo

[Anendrue]

I did not say I had the power to ban anyone. I am just requesting moderator action as this has gotton out of hand. You have called me names and a Liar. This is my last response to you.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I did not say I had the power to ban anyone. I am just requesting moderator action as this has gotton out of hand. You have called me names and a Liar. This is my last response to you.

Sorry cant let you have the last word on this, not my nature, do you actually read the posts! Never personally, not once called you a name, did not once personally call you a liar show me where, tried to explain my positon and you put words into my mouth about you nuff said!

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Some people keep harping on a business model that from thier own words shows a lack of understanding the software business. To imply that Matrix did not allocate the proper resources to the project is based upon what they wish for and not reality. ADG and Matrix have a contract (for Matrix to publish a product), Matrix and Steve have a contract (for Steve to create a product). Outside these three major players anyone can comment pro or con on the project, and that is fine.

Yet, since they did not have input on either of these contracts and have no financial stake (or actual knowledge of the financials) to say the proper resources were not committed is at best an uninformed opinion, and at worse, a whine.

They have proved nothing beyond an opinion that lacks facts. Everyone knows that this project will take more time to complete. This does not confirm proper resources were not committed, it only means it is not finished yet. It appears that to complete the project and have an acceptable return-on-investment (ROI) has required more time than many people want. That people are upset is understandable, but that does not change the facts of this project one bit. Some people say "add more staff" but this doesn't work for Matrix or Steve if the ROI goes negative. This fact cannot be changed.

Software is not like building a normal product like say a table or a TV set, people don't like to hear this, and many don't understand why, but it is reality. COST vs RETURN requires INFORMED balance to succeed and have a profitable ROI.

Am I happy it is not finished yet, no.
Will it be finished in 2010, I hope so.
Is there another publisher/programmer that is beating down the doors of ADG, Matrix or Steve to take it over this financial risk, I doubt it.

A person posting that it does not meet his or her expectations is fine, repeating them just turns into is just a childish WHINE.

Yes Flipper it is whinning but its manly whinning because of my age and its not a childish whine because of the 5 years waiting and continue to wait. Even though everything you say above I believe to be correct and true but it still does not help the situation here in getting this game out, I see here when people state a slightly negative view point about the delay of this game they are charred with inuendos and twisting of their feelings and words so I will try to take a more positive attitude here in the future [maybe[:D]]

Bo

[CrusssDaddy]

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

CrussDaddy

Sounds to me like you are frustrated because you can't play WiF. Maybe your local group broke up or maybe you never had a group to play FtF with? I can understand this. I'd be feeling the same way if I couldn't play this great game. But I can, and so can you as long as you have a computer with 2meg of RAM and a decent internet connection. You can play WiF on Vassal. You can play live online or you can play PBEM. Both work great. Most of us play a combination of the two. The WiF module was created by Ken Griffiths. It is really no different than playing in your buddies basement except that you move the counters by click and drag with your mouse. It doesn't take up a whole room. You don't have to worry about the cat messing up your table. You can play people all over the world (although similar time zones are usually easier to manage.) The games actually go faster than when you meet with a group once a week or once a month because you can play every day (provided you have an understanding wife). I've played dozen of these games, mostly by PBEM. I'm currently in a Vassal game that is at the end of JF45 with Jerome. Started that one 13 months ago. Ken and I are playing a game we started in November that is already in MA42! In many ways I prefer Vassal games to FtF. Especially after the two snow storms I had to drive through to get back from local game, 70 miles from my home. I look forward to MWiF when it is completed. It will make a few things easier. And I look forward to being able to try some weird strategies against the AI, even if the AI is not competitive.... just to see how they play out. I'm also looking forward to playng China on the European scale. But it is easy to be patient because I am having so much fun playing WiF on vassal. Give it a try. You can usually find opponents on the WiFlist. I could even direct a few people your way if needed.

Cheers

John

John, thank you for the advice. I know about Vassal and have heard nothing but good things about it, but have never tried it. I might some day. I'm more energized about CWiF, and I'm hoping that 2010 is the year that something can be done to rescue it from neglect and oblivion at the hands of Waitrix.

In response to a previous poster, I don't think my writing style really matches that of werewolf, and I don't think you have to look particularly closely to notice the differences. Same sentiments, yes - is it really so hard to believe that more than one person is fed up with the abject failure of MWiF? It's no longer a matter of hoping for light at the end of the tunnel - the tunnel has collapsed at both ends and become a grave.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

In response to a previous poster, I don't think my writing style really matches that of werewolf, and I don't think you have to look particularly closely to notice the differences. Same sentiments, yes - is it really so hard to believe that more than one person is fed up with the abject failure of MWiF? It's no longer a matter of hoping for light at the end of the tunnel - the tunnel has collapsed at both ends and become a grave.

Thanks for sharing this with us, but I think it is time to move on. [:)]

[Skanvak]

Some people say "add more staff" but this doesn't work for Matrix or Steve if the ROI goes negative. This fact cannot be changed.

Flipper, I think that what is exasperating is that it is said by people not involve in the process. I don't understand why people who are potential client like us just keep reharsing the same argument? You should understand that part of those reaction are provoked by any date annoucement which proved to be false. We understand that the percieved ROI for Matrix is low. But no one show any hard proof. Of course it is a matter of risk. Could we have hoped that a company that developped GG games had more hoped in a fully tested wargame system? I think we could have. Does your undocumented support to a decision that is not yours help sooth anyone? No.

I believe that the best way is to put a realist time for the game to be finish and hold it (suggest date 2012, because people prever good news than bad. If you promise a game finished in june and finished it in november you will be flamed, if you promised it for december and finished it in november, you will be applaused. Basic crowd and superior controlling psychology). Showing empathy works too.

Steve, i offer an advice: Don't give too much importance to these comments, there is a lot of people who support you and your honest way to develope the game. Paying attention to disdainful comments that only mean to itch you is not necessary, since all these matters have been debated and explained already. If somebody goes on with this song it's because of personal reasons.

Despite all I said, I support this statement and Jose balanced post.

By the way, let's be positive : if we want more staff on this project, we need to show Matrix that the ROI will come. I think that if all WiF fan post a promise to buy the game, that could show if they are wrong (or not). May be showing increased support to the project, while asking for more staff will be a more sound strategy for all of us.

[Arctic Blast]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

No disagreement at all with what you say, your right on as always but come on six years.

Bo

Oh, I agree it has been a LOOOOONG time. And no doubt there have been some missteps that ate up too much time, I am in no way saying that every step of development has been a model of efficiency. However, we can't go back in time and get rid of those missteps, so we are where we are.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Does your undocumented support to a decision that is not yours help sooth anyone? No.

I was not trying to sooth anyone.

My opinion:

1) People will not be happy until the product is released (but be careful what you wish for).

2) We as potential customers CANNOT effect a change to the completion date (no matter how much some think we can) nor should we.

3) Anyone who complains about the time this is taking should look to Avalon Hills attempt at making computer Third Reich.

3RPC took about five years to complete (with a larger staff), customers complained about the time it took, and it was pushed out the door BEFORE it should have been (IMO as a beta-tester on the project) for a number of reasons. The result was a poor product that couldn't even strickly follow simpler rules than MWIF will have to deal with.

I do not blindly support all the choices that have been made in this project, but I support the concept of trying to get it as right as possible before publication.

4) I don't believe anybody has been misinformed about dates. They are estimates and sometimes they slip. Better to slip than release a poor product. See #3 if you disagree here.

5) If you don't like to see estimates or follow the progress of the project then avoid this forum. I am sure that once MWIF is for sale it will appear on the main page where everbody that visits Matrix will see it. Estimates are not a problem.

Final: I believe we all want a fine product. Good software takes time, rush it and you will not be happy.

[marcbarker]

Tell the truth I have been waiting for this game a very long time. Reading the posts and truly feel for both sides of the equation. Example that I give is the CS series......nothing derogatory but it isn't all that and a bag of chips. I get more out of the FoF forums and the people there. At least they are up front and slap you in the face with yeas or nays on an issue. Whether a release date or a simple mod question. The bottom line I guess is when is the ballpark for this title 2013?

[mark.patrick]

Man, tough crowd. Get a grip, friends. It's just a game, not the cure for cancer and we're all terminal. [;)]

Been simply lurking here for a long time (like many others, probably), don't really care if this game isn't completed tomorrow (ditto), but in any case will gratefully buy it immediately when it's released (ditto).

Owned the old Avalon Hill "Rise and Decline of the Third Reich" board game title, eons ago. What a tedious pain-in-the-butt to play...and was absolutely facinated by it anyway, like no other game before or since. I spent hours over that board. I actually mastered the rule set and played the entire campaign, solitaire, at least a dozen times. The Axis took Gibralter once, Suez on another occasion and defeated the USSR on yet another. Played to essentially a draw a few times also. It made me fully appreciate just how close the world came to the abyss, had Herr Hitler not been such a total dumb*** as a military strategist. Of course, there was Fat Man and Little Boy, so who really knows? Still, big fun, if you're one of those weirdos that's likes this sort of thing. And boy do we, huh? Never found a human opponent who could even begin to comprehend the rules, let alone play against me. One guy tried, but never got past the "befuddled" stage. I've been looking for something like it on the computer, ever since. Well, this is certainly it, on steroids, so please don't give up. There are probably many more out there just like me, merely watching...and waiting. [;)]

Ok, back to lurking...

[Blorsh]

Our footbal team was created 100 years ago, so new conmemorative t-shirt were anounced, but when the day came there were no t-shirts at shops, so fans were frustrated and angried, but when they became available a lot of expectation was created, so MWIF is more or less the same, we see an estimation of when it will bwe available, but once more is not true, so is normal some peoples reaction I see. So I expect at least that MWIF will be a well finished product after so much time. Don´t forget that ADG an Matrix are proffesionals, no some amateurs making a game for friends, so they have some responsabilities. They going to sale the game (normal anf logical) and is not going to be a discharge to the menbers of that forum or some like that.

  Thank You for your work and do your best.

P. D.: Excuse me, my english level is poor.[&:]

[1962joe]

I KNOW SIR THAT YOUR WORKING HARD TO GET WORLD IN FLAMES TO THE PUBLIC AND SUCH A LARGE GAME WILL TAKE TIME BUT SIR DO YOU HAVE A ROUGH IDEA WHEN THE GAME WILL BE READY FOR SALE.I DON'T BUY AS MANY GAMES AS I USE TO BUT MATRIX WAS A DELIGHT TO FIND FOR TURN BASE GAMES,I GUESS I CAME FROM THE BOARD GAMES TIME IN THE 80'S AND I LIKE VERY MUCH TO BUY WIF FOR THE PC. THANKS

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: 1962joe

I KNOW SIR THAT YOUR WORKING HARD TO GET WORLD IN FLAMES TO THE PUBLIC AND SUCH A LARGE GAME WILL TAKE TIME BUT SIR DO YOU HAVE A ROUGH IDEA WHEN THE GAME WILL BE READY FOR SALE.I DON'T BUY AS MANY GAMES AS I USE TO BUT MATRIX WAS A DELIGHT TO FIND FOR TURN BASE GAMES,I GUESS I CAME FROM THE BOARD GAMES TIME IN THE 80'S AND I LIKE VERY MUCH TO BUY WIF FOR THE PC. THANKS

Welcome to the forum.[:)]

I post monthly to this thread in this forum around the first of each month. You can read the year-in-review from January 1, 2010 for my latest statement on status. My next post on that topic will be ~2/1/2010.