Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

[Mgellis]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Thanks guys. So what's the conclusion? 4.5 or 5.0?

I honestly don't know. Of course, an F-18 is 4.5, too, so that's not too shabby. If the F-35 is mostly meant to serve as an attack aircraft rather than an interceptor, maybe that would be the best analogue.

[Tomcat84]

Becomes a more interesting read now. Probably a 4.5 for now. It's clear from the article that the flight envelope is not finished yet so I wouldn't go down as far as a 4 but a 5 looks like it's a bit generous so 4.5 sounds like a nice compromise to me.

[Coiler12]

5. The article itself says "Loads remained below limits and implied that there may be more maneuverability available to the airframe.

[hellfish6]

Maybe 4.5 for the version with underwing stores, 5 for 'slick' internal weapons only? Can that be done?

[FoxZz]

This "may" is very uncertain.

Well, when you read the report, the only improvements they talk about is concerning the electrical flight controls of the plane, by giving a pilot a little more sensibility and authority on the plane. But those small changes won't change the mains flaws of the airframe. Keep in mind that the F16 was carrying full fuel tanks ! Those improvements may give the F35 a little more agility, but still on equal skills and loadouts, it is very unlikely that it will ever outurn an F16 or an F15
The 5 mark is completly ridiculous, it's the current mark of Typhoons and Rafale (btw both of those should be on par with the Raptor on this agility mark, since both of them killed it in mocked dogfight), even if theagility of the F35 is improved, it will never match those.

All loaded aircraft lose maneouvrability compared to clean ones, including the F35, having its bombs in the bay doesn't make their weight disapear. It only cause less drag than if those weapons were stored outside. But the bay gives also the F35 an higher weight and an higher baseline drag compared to fighter without it. Moreover, the loadout impact on aerodynamics hasn't been yet included in the game. Anyway, even an empty F35 doesn't deserve the 5 mark. Look at the report, an empty F35 was totally outmanoeuvered by a F16 with two full fuel tanks !! When you read the report, it's blatent how the F35 cannot compete.

I think it should go down to 4, which is on par with the F15A and the Mirage F1 and the Tomcat and above the great majority of planes. Maximum 4.5 for its latest version, because it may be improved one day.

[ComDev]

Okay 4.5 for now then, until more info becomes available [8D]

[Mgellis]

This article also address the F-35 vs. F-16 issue...

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/no-the- ... _source=TW

Based on this, I might suggest keeping the agility of the F-35 at 4.5. The point is that the F-35 will (in theory) rarely get into a dogfight--it is going to spot its foe first, because it is stealthy and has better sensors, and then fire long before the other plane has a chance to attack. And one assumes that once it is out of missiles it will do its best Monty Python impression and "Run away! Run away!" If it actually gets into a dogfight, however, it could be in trouble.

[ComDev]

Hi Mark,

Any chance you could fill in some in-service dates etc here? And also exactly which units you need?

That'd be fantastic as it would save us a ton of work [8D]

ORIGINAL: Mgellis

Okay, I know the wish list is already pretty huge, but I just noticed something...

Kenya does not seem to be in the database. After trying to track down information for Kenya, I can see why...at least in terms of web searches, it's easier to get information on ships from freakin' North Korea!

At the very least, I hope the following will be considered...

Northrop F-5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... aft_id=159
http://www.worldwide-military.com/Milit ... ger_EN.htm
http://nairobichronicle.wordpress.com/2 ... hter-jets/

Most of the other aircraft are already in the database, so they might just need to be copied, but I am not sure if there are any important variations for the specific models of Mi-17s, Pumas, etc. that are used.

Kenya has some missile boats, but aside from what was available at Hazegray and here (for the Province class)...

http://www.worldwarships.com/search?key ... 2&type=All
http://www.worldwarships.com/class/province

...it was very hard to find any information.

P3134 KNS Harambee II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P400-class_patrol_vessel <-- already in database, I think; I don't know if the Kenyans made any changes after the French gave her to them

Shupavu Patrol Boat
http://www.worldwarships.com/class/shupavu <-- not much information here but it was the best I could find

Nora B-52 (SP Howitzer) <-- made and used by Serbia, too, and used by Bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_B-52
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/de ... mor_id=701
http://www.armyrecognition.com/serbia_s ... tures.html
http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/ ... n-howitzer

Panhard AML
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_AML
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product937.html
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... pe/aml.htm
http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/C ... 20AML.html

MD Helicopters MD 500M/500MD/500MD Tow Utility/attack helicopter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_ ... 0_Defender <-- various versions in the database, but I'm not sure if they're the same as the Kenyan ones

General information...

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldpowers/wiki/kenya <-- looks like a lot of very useful basic information about vehicles, ship stats, etc. (not sure all of it is reliable, though)
http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/africa/africa.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Defence_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Air_Force
http://www.mccrow.org.uk/EastAfrica/EAW ... EastAf.htm <-- lots of images; I don't know if they can be used in the database or not

[Mgellis]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hi Mark,

Any chance you could fill in some in-service dates etc here? And also exactly which units you need?

That'd be fantastic as it would save us a ton of work [8D]

This is what I could find out about the aircraft...I'll post what I can find about the navy shortly. (These are all for Kenya.)

I hope all this helps.

----cut here----

BAC 167 Strikemaster fighters (Mk 87)

Operational: 1971-1993

I am not sure how (if at all) the Mk 87 differed from other export versions of the Strikemaster

----------------

BAE Systems Hawk (Mk 52)

“The Hawk 50 was the original export trainer version, and offered a limited attack capability. Finland, Indonesia and Kenya ordered 90 of this variant….Hawk 52 – Export version for the Kenyan Air Force. Fitted with braking parachute. Twelve ordered 9 February 1978, with deliveries from 1980 to 1981.” --Wikipedia

Operational: 1981-2012

--------------

Mil Mi-17 (Mi-171E, “Mi-171 equipped with VK-2500-03 engines to operate in extreme temperature limits, from -58 to 50 Celsius”…the Mi-171 is the same as the Mi-8AMT, a “slightly modified version of Kazan's Mi-8MTV, built in Ulan-Ude from 1991 and still powered by TV3-117VM engines although nowadays VK-2500 engines are optional. Also known as Mi-171.”—Wikipedia

Operational: 1999-present (not sure about dates, but Kenya’s police force apparently got a couple of these in 1999; police helicopters all grounded as of 2014, it seems, according to http://helihub.com/2014/02/18/kenya-pol ... -of-eight/)


---------------------


Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma
4 x SA 330G (“Upgraded civilian version with 1175 kW (1,575 hp) Turbomeca Turmo IVC engines”—Wikipedia)

Some sources list 3 x SA 330G and 9 x IAR 330

Operational: not sure of dates, but http://www.airvectors.net/avpuma.html says the 330G was available after 1974; I do have one reference work that lists them operational as of 1991-1992, so definitely at least 1992-present

---------------------------------------------------

Harbin Z-9

Looks like they got 4 x Z-9 (utility version) and 4 x armed Z-9WA version

Operational: 2010-present

https://beegeagle.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... licopters/


-----------------------------------------------------------



McDonnell Douglas MD 500 Defender

15 x Hughes 500MD Defender with TOW
8 x Hughes 500ME Defender
15 x Hughes 500M Defender

Not sure of the dates, but I do have one reference work that lists them operational as of 1991-1992, so definitely at least 1992-present

--------------

F-5E

Operational: 1978-present

“The air force re-equipment program began in 1976, when it was announced that the United States would sell Kenya a squadron of F-5E/F Tiger II supersonic fighter-bombers. Soviet arms transfers to Ethiopia lead Kenya to regard American arms and support as a necessary counterweight. Beginning with the delivery of F-5 Freedom Fighter aircraft to the Kenyan Air Force, the United States assumed a major role as a military supplier to Kenya.
The F-5s, which were equipped with Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, were delivered in 1978, replacing the Hunters and improving the KAF's combat potential. Two F-5Es were lost in operational accidents by 1983, but two more F-5Fs were delivered in 1982, which allowed the force to pursue a more efficient training program for F-5 pilots. The KAF also took delivery of 12 BAC Hawk T-52s in 1980-81 to supplement and eventually replace the Strikemasters in the light strike and training roles.”

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

---------------

DHC-5D Buffalo: 1977-present

Dash-8: 1990-present

Y-12, operational: 1997-present

"Among the modernization programs carried out include the acquisition of De Havilland Caribou, the medium lift DHC-5D Buffalo twin-engine transport aircraft in 1977 to augment the DHC-4A Caribou transport aircraft; the acquisition of the Dash-8-100 (DHC-8) and the Tucano in 1990; the Fokker 70ER in 1995, the Domier Do 28D Skyservants and the Y-12 in 1997."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

----------------


Sources


http://johnkaranja.com/2008/12/22/kenya ... and-facts/

http://www.airforceworld.com/attacker/e ... s-army.htm

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=106

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ipment.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... istory.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/navy.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ipment.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... istory.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.helis.com/database/modelorg/1433/

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Air_Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Navy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDBB27PmZ8Y <-- short history of Kenyan navy

[SASR]

[ADDED DB v440]

Unit Request for the JH-7B for China

From deagel/com/Long-Range-Attack-Aircraft/JH-7B _a/0/0/1/8/2/4/0/0/2/aspx

-Introduced in 2015
-Can carry the YJ-12 ASM
-Better engine with the WS-9A

"The JH-7B is an improved variant introduced in 2015 with better avionics, more powerful WS-9A engines delivering up to 15 percent of extra power, more composite materials and improved hardware to carry the YJ-12 supersonic anti-ship missile."

[Mgellis]

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Hi Mark,

Any chance you could fill in some in-service dates etc here? And also exactly which units you need?

That'd be fantastic as it would save us a ton of work [8D]

This is what I could find out about Kenya's navy. I hope this helps...

-------------------------

1x Jasiri class offshore patrol vessel (1,400 tons, 85x13 meters wide, maximum speed 28 knots (50 km/h), crew 60-81)

Operational: 2012-present

(long delays involved in getting the ship to Kenya; according to one article, “The KNS Jasiri was ordered in July 2003 at a cost of Shs4.1 billion (USD$52 million) and was supposed to be delivered in August 2005, but never arrived due to a contractual dispute between Kenya and contractor Euromarine Industries (with Spanish shipbuilder Astilleros Gondan as subcontractor). Euromarine sued the government of Kenya after payments were suspended in June 2005. The Kenyan government recalled its officers on July 18, 2005.

The 90% complete vessel is docked at the port of Ribadeo, Asturias province, Spain. In September 2006 Kenya sent a fact-finding team to Spain to investigate the KNS Jasiri. It concluded that the vessel just needed to be armed and complete sea testing and crew training before being ready for service.”)


------------------

1 x P400 (La Rieuse, renamed Harambee II)

Operational: 2012-present

As far as I can tell, they did not change anything on her. This is a Google translation of a French article on the transfer (I take no responsibility for anything goofy in this translation):

“It is now called Harembee. The former French patrol boat La Laughing, assigned to the Kenyan Navy, joined this summer his new homeland. After a grip with its new crew and some work in Reunion, the building has come to Kenya, where he started its operational activity. Former French P400 will receive a discount at the technical level, on which the French company involved Sofrapie, responsible for the resale of military equipment withdrawn from active service tricolor armed and advised by including RVR International.

Nine of the 10 units of the type P400, The Laughing built by the CMN Cherbourg, was called to active duty in 1987. Long of 54.8 meters for a displacement of 480 tonnes in charge, building, reinforced by a crew of 30 sailors and able to reach speeds of 23 knots, has a 40mm cannon, a lookout 20mm machine gun and two 7.62mm. In 25 years of service in the Navy, The Laughing conducted numerous missions monitoring and control around La Réunion, the Scattered Islands, Mayotte, Madagascar or Mauritius, and has distinguished in several rescue and boarding. The building has come, under the French flag, the equivalent of 22 times around the world. He was officially transferred on June 7 in Kenya. In Reunion, it will be replaced by Le Malin, a former longliner arrested in 2005 and has just been turned into patrol.”

So, 2012 seems to have been a really big year for the Kenyan navy. Go Kenya!


-----------------------------------


2 x Shupavu class large patrol boats

Operational: 1997-present

(the Hazegray site says 1998…not sure which one is right…maybe they were in service in 1997 but not commissioned until 1998?)

P 3130 Shujaa
P 3131 Shupavu

(from Janes Fighting Ships)

Displacement: 480 tons
Dimensions: 58 m. x 8.2 m. x 2.8 m.
Main machinery: 2 diesels, 2 shafts
Speed: 22 knots
Complement: 24
Guns 1 x OTO Melara 3-inch, 1 x Breda 25mm KBA
Weapons control: Breda optoronic director
Radars: surface search, I-band
“Built to civilian standards” in Spain

“Built to civilian standards in 1997 and entered service in 1997. Armed with a 76mm and a 30mm gun in Kenya” –Wikipedia (not sure if the 25mm or 30mm gun is correct, but Janes has “(P 3130)” after the information on the 25mm gun, so perhaps one has a 30mm and one has a 25mm?)

I could not find information for fuel tanks, range, etc., but the USCG Sentinel-class, a similar vessel (46.8 m instead of 58) has a range of 2,500 miles, if that helps.


-----------------------------------


2 x Nyayo Class missile boats
P3126 KNS Nyayo
P3127 KNS Umoja

Operational: 1989-present (Janes says they were commissioned in 1987 but no live missile test until 1989)

From Wikipedia: Built by Vosper Thornycroft, these are similar to the Omani Province class, and were delivered in 1987. Armed with 4 Otomat SSM, 1 76 mm OTO DP, 1 dual 30 mm AA, 2 20 mm machine guns.


From March 2009 to July 2011 these ships underwent an extensive refit at Fincantieri's Muggiano shipyard in northern Italy, during which their surface-to-surface missile (SSM) systems were removed, effectively reducing the vessels to an OPV configuration. Ships of this class are 57 meters long, displace 450 tonnes and have a crew of 45.

Janes Fighting Ships lists them as having 2 Wallop Barricade 18-barrelled launchers w. Stockade and Palisdae rockets
Speed 40 knots
Range: 2,000 miles at 18 knots
Complement: 40
ESM: Racal Cutlass; radar warning
ECM: Racal Cygnus; jammer
Weapons control: CAAIS 450
Radars: Surface search: Plessey AWS 4; E/F-band range 101 km/55 nm
Navigation: Decca AC 1226; I-band
Fire control: Marconi ST802; I-band

Notes in Janes Fighting Ships says "similar to Omani Province class" and they carry 1 RIB (RHIB?) "carried right aft"

-----------------------------------



2 x Galana-class LCM

L 38 Galana
L 39 Tana

Operational: 1994-present

Janes Fighting Ships says…


Displacement: 1400 tons
Dimensions: 63.5m x 13.3m x 2.4m
Main machinery: 2 MTU/Bazan diesels 2,700 hp sustained; 2 shafts; bow thruster
Speed: 12.5 knots
Complement: 30
Radar: navigational, Racal Decca, I-band
4m-wide ramp “is capable of taking 70 ton loads”


-------------------------------------------------------

1 x Mamba-class large patrol boat/missile boat
P 3100 Mamba

Operational: 1974-present

Displacement: 125 tons, 160 tons full load
Dimensions: 37.5m x 6.9m. x 1.6m
Main machinery: 2 Paxman 16YJCM diesels; 4000 hp sustained; 2 shafts
Speed: 25 knots; Range: 3,300 miles at 13 kt
Complement: 25 (3 officers)
Missiles: 4 x IAI Gabriel II
Guns: 2 Oerlikon/BMARC 30 mm GCM-AO2 (twin)
Radars: Navigational Decca AC 1226; I-band
Fire control: Selenia RTN 10x; I/J-band; range 40 km.


Refitted at Vosper Thornycroft 1989-1990; missiles no longer operational (since 1990?)



----------------------------

3 x Brooke Marine type patrol boat

P 3121 Madaraka
P 3122 Jamhuri
P 3123 Hamambee

Operational: 1975-2001 (not sure of dates, but the Hazegray site says one was still active and two in reserve in 2001)

Janes Fighting Ships says…

Displacement: 120 tons standard, 145 tons full load
Dimensions: 32.6 m. x 6.1 m. x 1.7 m
Main engines: 2 Paxman 16-cyl Valenta diesels; 5400 bph, 2 shafts
Top speed: 25.5 knots
Range: 2,500 miles at 12 knots
Guns: 2 x 40 mm.
Missiles: none, until 1983, then 4 x IAI Gabriel II
Complement: 21 (3 officers)


------------------------------------

3 x Simba-class (?) Vosper type large patrol boats
P 3110 Simba
P 3112 Chui
P 3117 Ndovu

Janes Fighting Ships says…

Operational: 1966- 1997 (some disagreement in sources, but Wikipedia provides the only date for actual decommissioning)

Displacement: 96 tons standard; 109 tons full load
Dimensions: 31.4 m x 6 m. x 1.8 m
Guns: 2 x 40 mm.
Main engines: 2 x Paxman Ventura diesels; 2800 bhp
Speed 24 knots
Range: 1500 miles at 16 knots
Complement: 23 (3 officers)

(notes include that they are air-conditioned! thank goodness for that!)



Sources

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/other_navies.htm

http://johnkaranja.com/2008/12/22/kenya ... and-facts/

http://www.airforceworld.com/attacker/e ... s-army.htm

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... Itemid=106

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ipment.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... istory.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... a/navy.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ipment.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... istory.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... zation.htm

http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/africa/africa.htm

http://www.helis.com/database/modelorg/1433/

http://www.meretmarine.com/fr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Air_Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Navy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDBB27PmZ8Y <-- history of Kenyan navy video

[DrRansom]

In a half joking bit of news, can the F-35 maneuverability be downgraded to match the leaked test report?

[Excroat3]

Well, you can look back a few pages and see that they already did it, and then removed it due to adequate evidence that the report holds no true meaning.

ORIGINAL: DrRansom

In a half joking bit of news, can the F-35 maneuverability be downgraded to match the leaked test report?

[DrRansom]

Whoops, saw that now.

Anyway, I'd say that it is more a 4.0 than a 4.5, the report is pretty conclusive about severe maneuvering disadvantages and nothing from the JPO office suggests that the plane will claw back any performance. The F-35 was also in a lower weight configuration than an operational missile, e.g. no weapons, so this is near maximum performance before engine improvements

[FlyingBear]

[SOME ADDED DB v440, MISSING INFO ON OTHERS]

Everything on this page; some is already there in the database but several are missing. E.g., the Soviets have Kolchuga, Soft Ball, and Trash Can, but they are missing, e.g., PRP-1, SDR-2, and 85V6 Vega / Orion.

Don't have any other sources of information, sorry about that...

A generic mobile SIGINT item would be much appreciated. Rather like the "Bunker (SIGINT Station)", but modeled as a mobile unit with suitable signatures. That could serve the role of the missing systems mentioned above if sources are hard to find.

Forgot to add: All the systems mentioned above, both the ones already included and the suggested additions, should have "Precise Emitter ID" set IMHO. It makes sense for less sophisticated radar warner type of equipment or simpler, fully automated equipment without access to raw data, meant for ease of use by personnel with limited training, to not have that flag. But any kind of dedicated SIGINT/ELINT equipment used by highly trained operators should have that flag set. Even if they have to look up PRF and modulation parameters in a binder or ask their more experienced colleagues they will figure out the precise emitter ID.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: FlyingBear

Everything on this page; some is already there in the database but several are missing. E.g., the Soviets have Kolchuga, Soft Ball, and Trash Can, but they are missing, e.g., PRP-1, SDR-2, and 85V6 Vega / Orion.

Don't have any other sources of information, sorry about that...

A generic mobile SIGINT item would be much appreciated. Rather like the "Bunker (SIGINT Station)", but modeled as a mobile unit with suitable signatures. That could serve the role of the missing systems mentioned above if sources are hard to find.

Look in the database under Soviets or Russia, land facility and filter for Vehicle. You should see Heart Ache, Kolchuga, Softball, Trash can. Under Russia there is another 6.

Thanks

Mike

[FlyingBear]

[INFO NEEDED]

Mike, you are right, I see those. But I do not see PRP-1, SDR-02, or Vega/Orion, unless they are listed under some other name?

It is not that critical, and I think the generic SIGINT vehicle I ask for above would be enough. E.g., in a "Central front in 1984" type of scenario the four systems you mention are too new and the bunker is, well, a bunker. With the existence of such units being classified in many countries, I guess in many cases we could expect that some sort of ability would exist but we do not know the name or exact type, so a generic type of unit should serve our purpose.

[mikmykWS]

Sure. In the meantime can add this sensor using the tools in the game to a car, truck, etc.

Thanks

Mike

[SuaveWatermelon]

Whoops, saw that now.

Anyway, I'd say that it is more a 4.0 than a 4.5, the report is pretty conclusive about severe maneuvering disadvantages and nothing from the JPO office suggests that the plane will claw back any performance. The F-35 was also in a lower weight configuration than an operational missile, e.g. no weapons, so this is near maximum performance before engine improvements

4.5 Is around the area of Hornet Maneuverability while 4.9 is around the area of F-16 maneuverability. 4.0 is right out considering that the test pilots still speak quite favorably of the F-35's performance (that and the report is based on the faults of a test airframe with a reduced flight envelope). For lack of better information, 4.5 seems fine for now but 4.0 is ludicrous considering all that has been said by the other test pilots.

[FoxZz]

ORIGINAL: SuaveWatermelon

Whoops, saw that now.

Anyway, I'd say that it is more a 4.0 than a 4.5, the report is pretty conclusive about severe maneuvering disadvantages and nothing from the JPO office suggests that the plane will claw back any performance. The F-35 was also in a lower weight configuration than an operational missile, e.g. no weapons, so this is near maximum performance before engine improvements

4.5 Is around the area of Hornet Maneuverability while 4.9 is around the area of F-16 maneuverability. 4.0 is right out considering that the test pilots still speak quite favorably of the F-35's performance (that and the report is based on the faults of a test airframe with a reduced flight envelope). For lack of better information, 4.5 seems fine for now but 4.0 is ludicrous considering all that has been said by the other test pilots.

How is the AF02 airframe limited in the flight enveloppe compared with other F35 ??

I'd also add, that the other test pilot comments were made during LM officials conferance, it's very unlikely that they would have crushed the airplane in front of all the public considering all the money injected in the program. Moreover, Lockhed Martin isnt'y known for its honesty for this programm so far.

Anyway, maybe we should continue this F35 discussion elsewhere ?