Banzais Don't Make Victories - Anachro (A) vs John 3rd (J) BTS 5.7

[paullus99]

Oh, and I agree.

Given the relative numbers, why would Japan go to war in the first place?

[Anachro]

This thread is getting a little derailed, which I don't really mind as I seem to have a lot of downtime with John being very slow on the turns, so feel free to keep discussing here. That said, if you have recommendations and observations, please post them in the new BTS mod thread John posted in the mod subforum. I think there need to be big changes to the resource economy back to its original state to produce the real effects/tradeoffs of its decision to so aggressively expand its industrial base/OOB. Again, Japan starts with a much expanded naval shipyard (1715 vs 1384), great, but that should come with the caveat that it requires a lot more resources to run/maintain. Instead, Japan also gets a much expanded domestic oil and resource base, which is ridiculous.

Regarding shipbuilding, I can accelerate almost all my late-war CVs from the beginning at the cost of halting my Yamato BBs (with room to spare for accelerating some other stuff too); and then of course as ships get finished it becomes easier to accelerate everything else, which is fine. With extremely expanded shipyards I guess this should be possible, but the tradeoff SHOULD be the extreme resource/fuel cost of running those shipyards, running the HI needed to fuel them, etc. That's my opinion; and I don't even know how good of a representation/abstraction the game does regarding scarcity and the consumption of resources by industry as I'm not an expert.




By the way, one other thought I had: with manpower "at a premium" as listed on the mod page (I'm assuming because a greatly expanded industrial base requires a lot more manpower at home working the factories), Japan's starting manpower pool and production capacity is the same as in scenario 1. That said, I don't think this really has an effect on the gameplay either way.

[paullus99]

There should be a means of adjusting the economy in a way that, if Japan expands their capabilities (and fleet / air force) in the way this mod allows them to, there is no way that Japan should be able to accumulate millions of points of reserves - either in fuel or other resources, since you are correct - that all of those expanded factories and shipyards would require substantially more support and the fleet / air would require enormous amounts of fuel....and it isn't just the oil - its the refinery capacity which would be strained...and not just strained, but completely inadequate to the task.

Let's take all of the steel production necessary - Japan was never self-sufficient in steel, not even close (not until the late 1960s / early 1970s) and I don't care what Yamamoto wants, even he can't make steel factories just appear out of thin air either.

So, you'd need to double steel production for your navy, then add in the additional capacity for the air force. Then add another 50% increase to accommodate the new factories, refineries and wells (and pipelines) to get from point A to point B.

Again, this comes off as an anti-John rant, but I don't intend it to be, but I am hugely disappointed to see that, for all John's claims to the contrary, Japan isn't handicapped on the economy at all, yet it gets a huge boost in combat capabilities.

[GetAssista]

Why are yall so bent on that "balance" idea? There is nothing balanced in the stock game, and there is no any god-sent requirement to try achieve whatever "balance".

Any kind of fantasy mod is fine, as long as it gives accurate representation of what changes are made so that players can make informed decisions beforehand.

[paullus99]

Of course the original scenario isn't "balanced." Its a reasonable representation of what the capabilities of the two sides had and what they could accomplish using those resources by making alternate decisions on deployments (and in the case of Japan, running the economy in a different way).

This discussion isn't about "balance" per-say, its about this particular scenario being presented as having "significant trade-offs" for Japan to get enhanced capabilities, when in actuality, those trade-offs aren't, in any shape or form, in line with how they are presented to the player-base.

Sorry, but if you're going to create the ultimate Japan Fanboy scenario - just present it as such so players can make an informed decision on whether or not they want to play. Not doing so is a misrepresentation at best.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I have to be honest, I didn't know what this mod was specifically until John told me he wanted to play it. I still don't really know the difference between it, BTS Lite, and Reluctant Admiral (which is the mod John originally wanted to play before switching to BTS). From what I gather, and I could be wrong as the mod website is confusing and not very clear, BTS is a more extreme boost to Japan's OOB than RA. I'm not too sure.

With all due respect for the several pages of scenario bashing that follow, Anachro, you bear responsibility for not doing due diligence before assuming a game that is supposed to last years. You should have been on guard about fantasy OOB and unrealistic HI/LI/resources/etc. based upon the mod that others had played for years with John. You should have parsed out some of the details before agreeing to this match (rather than a year and a half into it).

It is my firm conviction that these sort of bizarre other-worldly scenarios will stop being made and played when they're there are no longer matches for PBEM players. All Allied players need to do to stop this nonsense is to say 'no'. If they don't, or are unwilling to perform basic due diligence, then they 1) Get what they get and 2) have limited cause to criticize the construct of the scenario.

I would never foist this scenario on a PBEM opponent. Nor would I accept an offer to play this sort of game. Unfortunately, that makes me limited to 'stock' scenarios, but it's worked for me so far.

With some of the new blood on the forum I think it's a good idea to remind them of the basics. RTFM, play solo vs. AI in scenarios, then GC vs. AI then maybe PBEM versus a Japanese opponent then maybe PBEM versus an Allied opponent. Going down the rabbit hole of the bells and whistles-new color maps, this-and-that add-on, off-brand scenario mods and off-the-wall-nuts scenario mods before nailing down the basics will come back to bite some of them I fear.

[Anachro]

Contrary to your assumptions, CB, I read the scenario notes very carefully (and they are very unclear as I stated). I also did an analysis of the Japanese OOB in the opening pages, so I think your claim that I didn't do my "due diligence" to be quite unfair. The mod notes never stated that Japan's oil/resource production were boosted, in fact it suggested the opposite, so sorry, I never thought to look at that. That said, I am perfectly happy to continue the game, but I had been operating under the assumption based on the mod notes and alternate history(that I read in my "due diligence") that Japan's economy would be constrained by its expanded abilities and OOB.

I'm not sure what the point of the rest of your comments are, such as the one about new blood and mods, as it doesn't really relate much to this discussion, which is more about my thoughts on how to improve the mod from my point-of-view and bring it more in-line with its design notes.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum
For that to happen, more players have to take up a PBEM game and then send John and I feedback on what may need to be changed.

Sorry, NYG. No can do. I can't offer up my scarce PBEM time for your trial feedback. Too much of a time-consuming moving target to justify years of my time and effort for your mod. Good luck with your mod and your future pet projects, but you'll get no conscription from me.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Contrary to your assumptions, CB, I read the scenario notes very carefully (and they are very unclear as I stated). I also did an analysis of the Japanese OOB in the opening pages, so I think your claim that I didn't do my "due diligence" to be quite unfair. The mod notes never stated that Japan's oil/resource production were boosted, in fact it suggested the opposite, so sorry, I never thought to look at that. That said, I am perfectly happy to continue the game, but I had been operating under the assumption based on the mod notes and alternate history(that I read in my "due diligence") that Japan's economy would be constrained by its expanded abilities and OOB.

I'm not sure what the point of the rest of your comments are, such as the one about new blood and mods, as it doesn't really relate much to this discussion, which is more about my thoughts on how to improve the mod from my point-of-view and bring it more in-line with its design notes.

Well, I guess 'due diligence' is a subjective term, isn't it? If you felt you did sufficient research by reading the scenario notes and reviewing the OOB, then I guess that you're satisfied with that level of due diligence. I for one would include HI/LI/resource pools/oil and all the things I need to get the war economy underway as the Japanese when I entertained an invitation to a game. YMMV of course.

Since many other commenters are commenting on the use of mods that they consider to be fair and balanced and what they would and would not want in a PBEM game (OOB, CV-capable planes, etc.) I thought I'd throw a word of caution out there to lurking noobs that are reading this AAR and thinking about starting a game. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard of a novice player getting sucked into a mod that they didn't bargain for.

[ITAKLinus]

CB, I do agree with you regarding the opinion about the MOD and all those glittering stuff.

Still, I think we are not discussing Anachro's tastes here. I mean, I dislike it and I wouldn't play it, if not for a personal challenge (that's why I gladly offered to continue in case of John's surrender).
However, i think Anachro is completely free to play it as much as he wants if he enjoys it. That's my position at this regard.


About inviting newcomers to try MODs and the "glittering stuff", I agree that it shouldn't be done because the game has a horrible learning curve and they should learn first how to play it and then various possibilities made available around. I purchased the game on February, 2018. Never played something remotely similar to a wargame (is Risiko considered a wargame? [:D] ). I know and remember clearly how hard is to learn.


But we are going off-topic in this wonderful AAR. That's why I asked sorry twice yesterday for me taking the Japanese economy into the topic: I guessed it would have derailed the AAR for a while.



I think that we should focus on the problems Anachro is having (and eventual solutions) rather than questioning the MOD per-se. And, as said, I think the same you do regarding it, so it's just a matter of not derailing too much the AAR.




Regarding the general issue of Anachro's lack of control. I tend to say that, yes, he could have checked. However, since he doesn't know about Japanese economy, it wouldn't have changed much.
Moreover, he did what he could, in a proper and accurate way, given his capabilities and the info given.

I confess openly that I haven't realised at glance the massive change in the industrial base when I started helping the Italian guy on the Italian forum. I can only imagine what can happen with somebody who hasn't a clear understanding of Japanese economy... I mean, I have many numbers I know "by heart" regarding it. And still I missed at glance the changes (ok, screens weren't clear and he reported just some totals, but I should have guessed what was happening).

So, I think that Anachro did what he could given the circumstances. I don't blame him for having been tricked.



I also think that, if something like this happened to an experienced player, what do we expect to happen to those who are less experienced?

[Cheesesteak]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

You have hit upon one thing I think is a bit wonky and that is the CV capable Jacks and Georges. They end up being better than any CV capable air craft the USN gets. I am not sure that works well.
As you know I am not a basher of this series of mods, but a supporter.

I don't know enough about the Japanese economy to say anything about the balance concerns there, but this seems like a valid critique.

Personally, I love the idea of re-balancing (not that there's anything wrong with it as is) the game through ahistorical modifications.Maybe it's just a post-Turkey Day mood, but I'm thankful to those who spend time and energy sharing a mod for us to use.

Best case, changes to baseline Oil availability are discussed in the Mod page prior to game start for vetting and feedback. That didn't happen. Anarcho scored a big win regardless of a buffed IJN. Hopefully we get to see what's in store going forward.

[Canoerebel]

Poor Anachro! His AAR is spinning so fast that chunks are coming off and flying in different directions.

When I began playing, I "trusted" that players proposing games had good reasons to nominate a mod and offer House Rules. I like giving Japan advantages. I didn't have the ability to look under the hood to understand the realities of a mod. And I didn't have the experience to understand how house rules usually have tremendous unintended consequences. I've learned to pay more attention, now that I have a lot more experience. But a lot of us take people at face value and assume there's good faith.

[viberpol]

I wonder how many critics of the mod played at least one or two full scenarios till the bitter end in '45.
That said, well, I played against John 3Rd... as long as I sunk his pretty American CVs disbanded in Rabaul in March '42 or so, and he quit
Cuddle and snuggle your PBEM opponent 'cos the one stable as a rock is very rare.

But you know what? Experienced players know the real thing is fuel, no matter what... I've seen the numbers, been there. Even 5 mln of fuel in 6'44 in Tracker means nothing
if you can't reach it, cos its in Palembang or other bases you cant haul it into HIs. Even well defended oil fields recovered at the expense of 500k supply (10-15%) of your starting point can be easily zeroed due to Japanese CAP inefficiency. Scen 28 DaBabes PBEM played 2 or 3 years now 11.44. I still have 4 mln fuel, but only 200 k in the HIs I ve got 10 mln resources. So what, if I cant use it?
Allied player can win any game, any mod. Its just a matter of fun. You want short game? Cut the oil, bomb it, take it. But damn... are we here for a win or fun?
I say... give the JFBs toys. The more, the better. The more, the more you gonna sink.

[JohnDillworth]

Maybe it is an overdeveloped sense of fair play but the thing that really bothers me about this is that Anachro won a big victory and didn't really get to enjoy it. All of a sudden the other AAR goes dark, the opponent is busy elsewhere and turns have slowed to a crawl. I'm not saying there should be gloating and a victory lap but to take your ball and go home because you lost a battle seems petty and small. This stinks

[Anachro]

We should cool our heads a bit here. John and I are still communicating by email and I have said my thoughts to him on the fuel/resources stuff as we discuss changes to his mod going forward to improve it. As for the game itself, I am 95% sure it will continue; John is just suffering a bit of depression from SLCS with it. We all experience such at times. Go back and read my post after I lost 2 CVLs and a CV near Goa, India: LINK HERE

At that time, John sent me this email ironically:

OK. Ok. You got a smack on the last turn. That can mentally hurt and I have been there. Try playing the Japanese in 1944 and 1945! That is pain. Dan will tell you.

I’ve tried so many times to catch you exposed and finally got succeeded. Now buck up camper, shake off the dust and get ready for more, heavy duty action!

That said John told me he's run the next turn but hasn't had time to put the orders in yet due to work. Hopefully, that can be done today.

[ITAKLinus]

To make it clear:

1 - Nobody is questioning whether it is legitimate to play the MOD. It came out in the general talk but it's not the focus of the discussion.
2 - I mentioned before in this AAR that the fact that oilfields are in actual Japan poses a very strong strategic challenge to any allied player and it eases immensely Japanese position.
3 - The biggest problem emerged is that these increased production centers have never been identified in a clear and precise way.
4 - The MOD's webpage lies in stating that initial stocks are far lower and so on.



All these elements contribute to create a very bizarre situation. It's quite difficoult to say that having more OIL/FUEL doesn't change the game: it allows the Japanese player to roam around with his fantasy toys for a long long time. To be clear: in my games in Scen1 I often leave some preys because I cannot afford the expenditure of fuel. And, until at least mid-42, I'm quite lavish in my fuel usage.
Couple that with the fact that they are very well protected back in Onshu and you have a very nasty situation.


Again, it's not a matter of that. As far as I am concerned, Japan can even have an atomic bomb per week. It becomes a problem when these atomic bombs are an hidden change, rather than precisely stated somewhere.
If you look at MOD's webpage, there is a meticulous description of the alternative history and ships classes and so on. Little is said about the economy and this little points to a very clear conclusion: Japan has a weaker economy. While in reality it's false.


Anachro played a game on totally different grounds. And it's due to the fact these economic changes are hidden.

They are game-changers. No question on that. Here the Japanese has additional toys, improved R&D etcetc AND more fuel to run the whole circus. All these modifications make the defence of the industrial capacity relatively easy. Basically: you have more stuff, better stuff and more stuff to run all these other stuff. Therefore, you can also defend your stuff more easily. Allowing you to produce even more stuff.




John hasn't stated that in MOD's webpage. And denied his knowledge of it on MOD's thread. That's the opposite of the very important and basic principle of "informed choice". It's like giving you a medicine without telling you that you'll become blind. Not that fair from your doctor, eh?

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Maybe it is an overdeveloped sense of fair play but the thing that really bothers me about this is that Anachro won a big victory and didn't really get to enjoy it. All of a sudden the other AAR goes dark, the opponent is busy elsewhere and turns have slowed to a crawl. I'm not saying there should be gloating and a victory lap but to take your ball and go home because you lost a battle seems petty and small. This stinks

I assume John is coping in his own way, which apparently means walking away from things for a while and getting his spirits back up by doing something he loves. It's too early yet to say he is quitting, and he has given Anachro some indication of starting to work on turns again. All will be reveled in time.
Meanwhile, we all have to work on our good cheer for the season!

[BillBrown]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Culprit seems to be that BTS expands oil, etc. production across the board such as below. I'd imagine this is the same for HI/LI, etc.

Man I wanna play this mod for Japan!!!

If he quits I volunteer! [8D]

You're on, I am looking for a game as Allies anyway. Take Japan as let's see what happens.

[ITAKLinus]

For comparison. These are screens from my game in which I went big with NavShipyards and from Scen1 stock.

I have black-covered other industrial information since I know my opponent lurks around.


Sorry for the crappy image.

[ITAKLinus]

Not knowing MOD's CV precise statistics such as durability, it's hard to make a comparison. They look quite aligned, though.

Quite an important element is that in the stock you have everything quite late, while here in the MOD you have a better staggering of launches.

Basically: you can run at full speed the Naval Shipyards for a while but you turn them off as soon as you launch stuff, while, in Scen1, most of the ships arrive quite late so you have to keep NavShipyards running for years. I guess he has launched the first bunch of accelerate CVs and CVLs and started turning off NavalShipyards.

It's a completely legit and reasonable move from his side.



I cannot say more regarding MOD's ships because, as said above, I don't know their precise specifications and therefore I'd make only random talks. I guess his CVLs are a little bit more fragile while his CVs less brittle, accordingly to the general industrial cost you shown.
Also, it should be seen their relative capabilities. In general, it's hard to make an evaluation from that industrial screen only, since one should start analysing ship after ship in order to grasp its strucutre.