unrealistic air combat...

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


By the way, I am not mindless, and I do not rant. Occasionally, I like to inject a little fun into these discussions (which are most frequently pointless and fruitless). I cannot be an apologist for those slow of wit and devoid of humor.

Thanks to you, too.

For the point in question I disagree, is was a mindless rant. If you want a discussion then stay and discuss the topic, overwise take your "humour" elsewhere. I am not going to be an apologist for a sarcastic jerk either.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


Do you have any evidence that your "creative" mission routing technique was actually followed by Japanese bomber missions?

Do you have any to contradict it?

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Well, I'm done poking fun at Ike, and I apologize if any of my nonsense went too far and offended.

I just couldn't get beyond the realization (self-induced, of course) that this whole discussion was silly and getting sillier.

As Radar O'Reilly said to Frank Burns after he made fun of Radar for sleeping with a Teddy bear, "I'm hoping to do better, sir."

Do try a little harder then.

[pasternakski]

You know, folks, ...

forget it. I ain't goin' there.

Bye, DEB, I hope you enjoy your little one-handed game.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Flying at night is not remotely easily done by dead reckoning. Minore things like air pressure changes, windspeed changes, and cross winds required pilots, prior to Loran, to have lots of visual waypoints for missions beyond around 200 miles, because every course change could be GUARANTEED to be accompanied by some sort of wind direction/strength or air-pressure induced error.

Makes one wonder why any sane person would try it. As for including it in an historical Simulation......?

The USN used radio to allow returning pilots to fix the locations of their CVs. The RAF used same for navigational guidance for night bombers. Other allied night patrol craft used radio beacon homing and celestial navigation.

Apparently the japs had these too!

Single seat aircraft were, absent strong radio navigation, almost hopelessly at risk trying to navigate at night during WW2.

If they were absent!

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I apologize to nobody for jesting on the forum as it's all meant in fun and not nastily.  This forum is, after all, for our free exchange of ideas and enjoyment.

I'll have to take you much less seriously from now on then!
One persons sharp wit is anothers sarcasim. They say sarcasim is the LOWEST form of wit, try not to get too low.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


Since, I've tried to keep it light and, as you put it, confine my remarks to "fun," unless the subject calls for serious discussion, but I still try to be polite and respectful.

It's tough sometimes, though. There are some eyeballs that just beg for the "sharp stick" treatment.

If "that's" been "polite & respectful" you must be a real sick sarcastic b******d at heart.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I agree, but our thin skinned members need to grow up and learn to laugh, sometimes even at themselves.

One should not need to be thickskined to partake in a forum ( or in life generally ). Perhaps one day someones "wit" will upset you.
I will try not to laugh too much.

[DEB]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You know, folks, ...

forget it. I ain't goin' there.

Bye, DEB, I hope you enjoy your little one-handed game.

I though I saw you pop in & out! Did you not enjoy my little bit of "humour"? Bye bye!

[tocaff]

Deb

I've been upset by stuff and I get over it.  I try and keep things in their proper prospective.

[Ike99]

Flying at night is not remotely easily done by dead reckoning. Minore things like air pressure changes, windspeed changes, and cross winds required pilots...

No one said it was easy or that it did not take training. But, that´s why these people are called ¨Pilots¨, because they have had training and can do it.

Single seat aircraft were, absent strong radio navigation, almost hopelessly at risk trying to navigate at night during WW2.

This is not true now, was not true in WW2 and was not true prior to WW2.

But pasternakski is correct that this thread has become sillier and sillier. The unbelievers have went from carrier night ops to night bombing hit percentage to now..

Now...

Now...

The Japanese couldn´t even find a fixed point at night without a miracle of navigation!!

[8|]

Very impressive. All I can say then is the Japanese certainly worked a lot of miracles of night navigation in WW2.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Very impressive. All I can say then is the Japanese certainly worked a lot of miracles ...

This reminds me of a line from "In Harm's Way" when John Wayne tells a subordinate that the Japanese Navy had a habit of doing the impossible.

But "In Harms Way" was only a movie, not a computer simulation of dog fighting in the Pacific in WW II where reality never really gets in your way [8|]

[Ike99]

But "In Harms Way" was only a movie, not a computer simulation of dog fighting in the Pacific in WW II where reality never really gets in your way

Eh huh, those pictures look like a computer simulation to you? Besides, anyone who tells me they are a pilot yet can´t follow a coast line in daylight is full of BS.

A couple real pilots got a good laugh at that BTW.

So is anyone who tells me a single engine aircraft is hopless without radio navigation at night. I´ve sat right next to a real pilot at night in such aircraft and seen it done so stick it in a dark spot.

[decaro]

No Ike, not those pictures, these pictures.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

.

[Ike99]

You knew what pictures I was talking about Joe. Famous case in WW2...any pilots here want to explain to me how Rudolph Hess flew almost 4 hours and 900 miles, half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

He was a pilot using DR, that´s how.

[decaro]

And don't forget these; wan't this your original argument for dead reckoning at night?
BTW, that was my original quote.

ORIGINAL: Ike99

But at night you would have to find it first, that's the hard part, assuming the field is blacked-out. I imagine a full moon would make a difference.

Assuming Japanese pilots knew how to use a map, compass and clock I think they could find it. [:D]

Screen shots from IL2 Pacific Fighters. I think I can mention that here because Matrix sells an expansion for it.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Ike99
Besides, anyone who tells me they are a pilot yet can´t follow a coast line in daylight is full of BS.

A couple real pilots got a good laugh at that BTW.

I don't really want to post here again, but as you see fit to engage in personal insults and derision, I feel that I must.

What I really said was, "That coast to which you refer is, as you should be able to note from the map you supply, difficult enough to follow in the daylight while merely reading your post, let alone at night in real life."

I was, obviously, answering your assertion that this was all so very easy for a pilot flying at night. I pointed out that your own map shows a convoluted coastline with many terrain features offshore that could be confusing and misleading, particularly at night.

Now, again. I have no further interest in this "discussion." I ask that you please refrain from further personal attacks.

Thank you.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Ike99

...any pilots here want to explain to me how Rudolph Hess flew almost 4 hours and 900 miles, half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

He was a pilot using DR, that´s how.

A former airline pilot, Hess was also an avid astrologer, so perhaps he was guided by the stars that night.

BTW his flight wasn't that perfect; he broke an ankle after parachuting from his Me 110.

[Ike99]

I don't really want to post here again, but as you see fit to engage in personal insults and derision, I feel that I must.

Your joking right?

Well, I'm done poking fun at Ike, and I apologize if any of my nonsense went too far and offended.

If you start shooting at someone one can not complain about the return fire can they?

BTW his flight wasn't that perfect; he broke an ankle after parachuting from his Me 110.

Wouldn´t matter if he crashed nose first into a smoking hole in the ground. Still shows what can be done in night navigation without radio.

Besides, there would be a thousand single engine pilots laughing their arses off who have smuggled into USA at 100 feet in the night and landed on unmarked dry lake beds and salt flats if they read this thread!

I guess someone should have told them, and the Japanese such a thing is impossible.

[mdiehl]

half of that being over the North Sea and parachuted within 10 miles of his objective without radio navigation?

I think that example illustrates very nicely why the Japanese did not attempt long range night raids against targets of any kind. I'd be impressed by such feats of dead reckoning if he'd landed within a kilometer of his objective. A 10 mile margin of error pretty much proves that a person working by dead reckoning would have a very difficult time hitting something the size of an airfield without radio navigation or lots of visual waypoints.

Thanks for the anedcote. You could not have undermined your own claim more effectively than you just did.