Ridiculous Surface Combat Result

[John Lansford]

There were several USN CL's at Surigao Strait; when they went into full speed broadsides observers on other ships thought they had blown up due to their rapid rate of fire.
 
The concept of "throw weight" has been used to justify smaller but more numerous guns on cruisers since that class of ship was designed.  It's why the RN liked the 6" gun armed CL's; at close ranges (like was expected in the North Atlantic and North Sea) accurate, rapid salvos was preferred over slower salvos from the 8" gun armed CA's.  Throw weight also was used to justify the KGV's using 14" guns over a 15" or 16" gun like other nations were going with; the thought was with 10 guns instead of 9, plus a higher rate of fire, would mean the KGV's didn't have a disadvantage vs other nation's BB's.

[m10bob]

Naval Fire Control Systems WW2..(The size of the gun is not always better).


http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-052.htm



Japanese Naval ordnance


http://www.combinedfleet.com/guns.htm


Nomenclature:


http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data.htm


Shell aerodynamics:


http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-073.htm


USN and IJN Ballistic Fire Computers:


http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-086.htm


Night engagement, "entertainment" video at the bottom!


http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/VIDEOS/N ... s_Bay.html

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Naval Fire Control Systems WW2..(The size of the gun is not always better).


http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-052.htm



Japanese Naval ordnance


http://www.combinedfleet.com/guns.htm

Fascinating stuff.

Especially the link to combinedfleet.com.

[Kumppi]

I don't really get that much what you guys are saying, but its no wonder this game is so good when there are so many knowledgable posters in these forums.

[juliet7bravo]

Naval Fire Control Systems WW2..(The size of the gun is not always better).

Generically speaking...bigger is almost always better. A BB has better optical fire control system than a CL (for example). The directors are wider. Wider mean better able to estimate range accurately. The directors are higher. Higher means you can see further. The optics themselves are generally better quality (better clarity). A BB generally has a bigger and better analogue computer. The turret local FCS on a BB was probably better than the main director on a CL. A BB is inherently a more stable firing platform.

If you want to talk difference between nationalities, you're mixing apples and oranges. Or radar FC vs. Optical.

[Rapunzel]

Well Japanese Surface TFs running amok too. Only lack of ammo stopped the carnage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 35,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown
CA Chicago
CA Pensacola
CL St. Louis
DD Henley
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis
DD Craven
DD Gridley
DD McCall


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 4,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 1
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 3, on fire

Allied Ships
AO Neosho, Shell hits 10, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AO Sabine, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
AO Kaskaskia, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AO Platte, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
AO Guadalupe, Shell hits 9, and is sunk
DD La Triomphant, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk



Improved night sighting under 78% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 78% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 4,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 4,000 yards
Nishida, Masao crosses the 'T'
BB Hiei engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
BB Hiei engages AO Platte at 4,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages AO Platte at 4,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
BB Kongo engages AO Neosho at 4,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Natsugumo at 4,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD La Triomphant at 2,000 yards
BB Kongo engages AO Platte at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Platte at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 2,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Yakaze at 2,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD La Triomphant at 2,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD La Triomphant at 2,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Makigumo at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
CA Chokai engages AO Neosho at 4,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages AO Sabine at 4,000 yards
AO Neosho sunk by DD Minegumo at 4,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Natsugumo at 4,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages AO Sabine at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 3,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages AO Guadalupe at 3,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages AO Sabine at 3,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD La Triomphant at 3,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages AO Guadalupe at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 4,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages AO Sabine at 4,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages AO Guadalupe at 4,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD La Triomphant at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Natsugumo at 6,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD La Triomphant at 6,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD La Triomphant at 6,000 yards
BB Hiei engages AO Sabine at 6,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Yakaze at 6,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD La Triomphant at 6,000 yards
DD La Triomphant engages DD Natsugumo at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD La Triomphant at 8,000 yards
DD La Triomphant sunk by CA Chokai at 8,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Sabine at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
BB Hiei engages AO Guadalupe at 9,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 9,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Sabine at 9,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages AO Kaskaskia at 9,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
AO Guadalupe sunk by BB Hiei at 7,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 7,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Sabine at 7,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 7,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Kaskaskia at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages AO Kaskaskia at 8,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages AO Sabine at 8,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages AO Kaskaskia at 8,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages AO Sabine at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Hiei engages AO Kaskaskia at 8,000 yards
AO Kaskaskia sunk by CA Chokai at 8,000 yards
Combat ends with last Allied ship sunk...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 31,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CA Portland
CA Northampton
DD Sims
DD Hughes
DD Anderson
DD Hammann
DD Mustin
DD Russell



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 26,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 31,000 yards...
Range increases to 31,000 yards...
Allied Air Combat TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 35,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga
CA Chester
CA Louisville
DD O'Brien
DD Walke
DD Morris
DD Bagley
DD Mugford
DD Ralph Talbot



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 35,000 yards...
Range increases to 35,000 yards...
Allied Air Combat TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 98,130, Range 35,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise
CA Salt Lake City
CA New Orleans
DD Maury
DD Ellet
DD Dunlap
DD Fanning
DD Mahan
DD Cummings



Improved night sighting under 85% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 85% moonlight: 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 35,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 35,000 yards...
Allied Air Combat TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

1 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Hiei
BB Kongo
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu


Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


BB Hiei firing at 109th USN Base Force
BB Kongo firing at 3rd RAAF M/W Sqn
CA Chokai firing at 15th RAAF Base Force
CL Jintsu firing at 109th USN Base Force


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 97,131, Range 35,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo
DD Natsugumo
DD Minegumo
DD Yakaze

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown
CA Chicago
CA Pensacola
CL St. Louis
DD Henley
DD Patterson
DD Jarvis
DD Craven
DD Gridley
DD McCall



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 35,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 35,000 yards...
Allied Air Combat TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 97,131, Range 29,000 Yards

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
DD Makigumo, Shell hits 1
DD Natsugumo, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Minegumo, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
CA Chester, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
CA Louisville, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
DD O'Brien, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
DD Walke, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Morris, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Bagley, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Mugford, Shell hits 11, and is sunk
DD Ralph Talbot, Shell hits 3, and is sunk



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 33,000 yards...
Range closes to 31,000 yards...
Range closes to 29,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 29,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 29,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CV Saratoga at 29,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Chester at 29,000 yards
CA Chester engages CL Jintsu at 29,000 yards
CA Chester engages DD Yakaze at 29,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Chester at 28,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Chester at 28,000 yards
CA Chester engages CA Chokai at 28,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD O'Brien at 28,000 yards
Range closes to 26,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Chester at 26,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Chester at 26,000 yards
CA Chester engages DD Minegumo at 26,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD O'Brien at 26,000 yards
Range closes to 22,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Chester at 22,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Chester at 22,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Chester at 22,000 yards
CA Louisville engages DD Yakaze at 22,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Morris at 22,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD Walke at 22,000 yards
BB Hiei engages DD O'Brien at 22,000 yards
Range closes to 19,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CV Saratoga at 19,000 yards
CA Louisville engages CA Chokai at 19,000 yards
CA Chokai engages CA Louisville at 19,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Louisville at 19,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD O'Brien at 19,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Walke at 19,000 yards
DD O'Brien engages DD Minegumo at 19,000 yards
Range closes to 15,000 yards
BB Kongo engages CA Louisville at 15,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CA Chester at 15,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Ralph Talbot at 15,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Mugford at 15,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Walke at 15,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Morris at 15,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Walke at 15,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CA Louisville at 12,000 yards
CA Louisville sunk by BB Kongo at 12,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot engages DD Makigumo at 12,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Mugford at 12,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Walke at 12,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Morris at 12,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Morris at 12,000 yards
DD Mugford engages DD Makigumo at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
DD Ralph Talbot sunk by BB Kongo at 9,000 yards
DD Walke sunk by CL Jintsu at 9,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Morris at 9,000 yards
DD Makigumo engages DD Mugford at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CV Saratoga at 13,000 yards
BB Kongo engages DD Mugford at 13,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Bagley at 13,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages CV Saratoga at 13,000 yards
DD Minegumo engages DD Morris at 13,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Bagley at 13,000 yards
Range closes to 12,000 yards
BB Hiei engages CV Saratoga at 12,000 yards
DD Mugford sunk by DD Natsugumo at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai engages DD Bagley at 12,000 yards
CL Jintsu engages DD Bagley at 12,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages CV Saratoga at 12,000 yards
DD Morris engages DD Minegumo at 12,000 yards
DD Natsugumo engages DD Morris at 12,000 yards
Task forces break off...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 97,131, Range 30,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo

Allied Ships
DD Bagley, on fire



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 25,000 yards
Japanese TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 30,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 30,000 yards
Japanese Surface Combat TF evades combat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 97,132, Range 35,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Kongo
BB Hiei
CA Chokai
CL Jintsu
DD Makigumo

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise
CA Salt Lake City
CA New Orleans
DD Maury
DD Ellet
DD Dunlap
DD Fanning
DD Mahan
DD Cummings



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 35,000 yards
Allied TF attempts to evade combat
Range increases to 35,000 yards...
Both Task Forces evade combat

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: herwin
BTW, 14" AP had a bursting charge of 22 lbs in the USN, while the 6" common projectile had a bursting charge of 7 lbs.

Well, I got it from navweaps.com. No idea how accurate that is!

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_14-45_mk7.htm

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_6-47_mk16.htm

It says 48lbs (22kg) for the 14", so maybe it's a measurements thing.

I had some fun working out kinetic energy for the shells too ([:D]) as I presume unless the shell comes out the other side most of that gets turned into damage as well. But finding out how many joules per mole an explosion of ammonium picrate creates to see if the kinetic energy is actually relevant is apparently beyond Google.

The US 14" AP shells were 22 and 35 lbs. The 6" AP was 1.95 lbs. See here.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Rapunzel
Well Japanese Surface TFs running amok too. Only lack of ammo stopped the carnage.

Ouch.

Though at least Saratoga lived. Her escorts got massacred to let her get away!

[herwin]

Back to the other topic. Wipeouts should be due to surprise. If both sides are aware of events, keep track of percentage casualties for each side (taking account of FoW). If both sides realise that one side is getting the worse of it (clearly higher percentage casualties), the losing side can be expected to disengage.

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: herwin
If both sides realise that one side is getting the worse of it (clearly higher percentage casualties), the losing side can be expected to disengage.

I don't doubt that when a convoy escorted by some DDs sees a battleship coming their way, 'Oh s***' is on their mind and they will attempt to disengage.

But they key word there is attempt.

That said, Convoy HX84, attacked by a heavy cruiser, lost 6 AKs and 1 AMC out of 38 merchants. 38 merchants is a frickin' huge convoy by AE standards, but I do wonder what would happen if you sent in CL Boise against 38 merchants and an AMC.

I'm tempted to try it out tonight. [:)]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: Rapunzel
Well Japanese Surface TFs running amok too. Only lack of ammo stopped the carnage.

Ouch.

Though at least Saratoga lived. Her escorts got massacred to let her get away!

Surface combat? Where were the Saratoga's aircraft? Grounded by weather conditions? 29000 yards visibility!

The initial reason the various navies built CVs was to maintain air superiority and air observation over the battlefleet. That made it rather difficult for a SAG to surprise a CVTF during the day.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: herwin
If both sides realise that one side is getting the worse of it (clearly higher percentage casualties), the losing side can be expected to disengage.

I don't doubt that when a convoy escorted by some DDs sees a battleship coming their way, 'Oh s***' is on their mind and they will attempt to disengage.

But they key word there is attempt.

That said, Convoy HX84, attacked by a heavy cruiser, lost 6 AKs and 1 AMC out of 38 merchants. 38 merchants is a frickin' huge convoy by AE standards, but I do wonder what would happen if you sent in CL Boise against 38 merchants and an AMC.

I'm tempted to try it out tonight. [:)]

It's easy to set up using the Coral Sea scenario.

[bradfordkay]

Having recently read The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, I recall that one of the reasons that the US DDs were able to do so much damage to the IJN CAs and BBs was that they closed the range to the point that the enemy vessels couldn't depress their main battery guns enough to bear on the target. IIRC, both the Johnson and the Roberts weren't hit until they were withdrawing after unleashing their torpedoes. 

[RHoenig]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

[
That said, Convoy HX84, attacked by a heavy cruiser, lost 6 AKs and 1 AMC out of 38 merchants. 38 merchants is a frickin' huge convoy by AE standards, but I do wonder what would happen if you sent in CL Boise against 38 merchants and an AMC.

I'm tempted to try it out tonight. [:)]

Well, not a huge convoy, but I met Boise when I tried to intercept, what I thought might be a couple of AKs, fleeing from Manila

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Tawi Tawi at 71,92, Range 16,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Natori, Shell hits 10, heavy fires
DD Satsuki, Shell hits 1
DD Minazuki
DD Fumizuki
DD Nagatsuki
DD Harukaze
DD Hatakaze, Shell hits 2, heavy fires

Allied Ships
CL Boise, Shell hits 7



Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 16,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 16,000 yards
CL Boise fires at DD Harukaze at 16,000 yards
CL Boise fires at DD Satsuki at 16,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 9,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 5,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 5,000 yards
DD Nagatsuki engages CL Boise at 5,000 yards
DD Minazuki engages CL Boise at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 6,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 6,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Minazuki at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 9,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 9,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Fumizuki at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 13,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 13,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 13,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 13,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Satsuki at 13,000 yards
Range increases to 15,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 15,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Nagatsuki at 19,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 19,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Satsuki at 19,000 yards
Moran, E. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range closes to 16,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 16,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Minazuki at 16,000 yards
Range increases to 17,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 17,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Minazuki at 17,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Satsuki at 17,000 yards
Range increases to 20,000 yards
CL Natori engages CL Boise at 20,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 20,000 yards
Range increases to 23,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Hatakaze at 23,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Satsuki at 23,000 yards
Range increases to 25,000 yards
CL Boise engages CL Natori at 25,000 yards
CL Boise engages DD Harukaze at 25,000 yards
Task forces break off...

At first I was a bit miffed, I mean, I have a CL and 6 DDs vs. a sinle CL and the Boise scores twice as many hits as my whole TF.
Then I looked at the combat logs and noticed, the Boise obviously managed to rapidly increase the range and then to keep it open, so my DDs never got into range (not that their popguns would do much good anyway).

I´m still miffed, but I have to give it to Boise, good job [:)]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: RHoenig
At first I was a bit miffed, I mean, I have a CL and 6 DDs vs. a sinle CL and the Boise scores twice as many hits as my whole TF.

Jap CLs are particularly runty, as well. IS Natori a real CL or one of those destroyer leader things?

[herwin]

In 1971, Robert L. Helmbold published Decision in Battle: Breakpoint Hypotheses and Engagement Termination Data (Rand R-772-PR, June 1971). This paper is a watershed in battle termination theory, for in it breakpoint hypotheses of whatever nature are finally eliminated as an explanation of battle termination.

Helmbold challenged analysts to develop an adequate battle termination theory, identifying seven properties such a theory should possess:
1. The theory should have simplicity and naturalness.
2. It must reproduce the observed quasi-exponential shape of emperical casualty distribution curves. (See below.)
3. The winner's casualty-fraction distribution curve must lie above and to the left of the loser's casualty-fraction distribution curve. (That is, usually the winner takes lower percentage casualties.)
4. The theory must address the separate casualty distribution curves observed for the category I and category II battles. (In category I battles, both sides have the option of disengaging; in category II battles, one side is not in a position to disengage. Category I battles are typically resolved by the time the loser has lost 10% of his force. Category II battles are typically resolved around 25% losses for the loser. Winners typically lose half the percentage casualties that losers lose. 90% of the time, losers lose a higher percentage of their force.)
5. The theory must define the relationship between the two side's casualty fractions in accord with actual empirical data. (See 4.)
6. The theory should explain why the loser's and winner's casualty fraction distributions are approximately the same independently of who was the attacker and defender.
7. The theory should be useful for simulation.

Helmbold's results suggest that force commanders take into account both casualty rates and relative force strength and position. In relatively balanced situations, commanders base their sense of whether they are winning or losing on the relative percentage casualty rates. In unbalanced situations, the positions and strengths of the forces are taken into account. In balanced situations, the battle continues until the commanders are convinced that the relative casualty rate (percentage casualties per unit of time) favours one or the other side. In unbalanced situations, the commanders don't bother to assess the relative casualty rates. The commander's decision process is driven by the incurring of casualties. Situations then leave the zone of acceptable force ratios at a constant percentage rate relative to percentage casualties, which produces a quasi-exponential casualty distribution curve.

In gaming terms: both commanders begin by deciding whether the battle is worth fighting and then assess the balance of forces continuously. Every few percentage own casualties, they reassess the situation using both the current force ratio and the relative casualty rates. If the battle is no longer worth fighting, they break off; otherwise they continue. Fog of war plays a role in this, producing an unexpected victory for the losing side about 10% of the time.

See if something of this nature will produce realistic battle durations...

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

Well, not a huge convoy, but I met Boise when I tried to intercept

From the signature maker:

"Famous last words: I tried to intercept, then I met Boise..."

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: herwin
*snip*

That sounds rather like... stating the obvious.

[mikemike]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

As for accuracy, at night, at close range, against high speed targets, yeah, I can see the BB not covering itself with glory.  (Though the High Seas Fleet ripped lots of flotillas of destroyers at night to pieces in WW1, so we can assume that would be a minimum ability given a WW2 battleship should certainly not be less effective than a WW1 one).   

But in my experience BBs can't even hit cargo ships at their optimal range of 15-20k yards in daylight - surely the ideal target, where weight of broadside will matter the most, unmitigated by allegedly poor accuracy of big guns.

There is an illuminating combat report elsewhere:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 13, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Hong Kong at 76,68, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Ise
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage (my comment: it sank from this damage later in turn)
DD Yakaze, Shell hits 1
DD Kuretake, Shell hits 2

Allied Ships
DD Scout
DD Thracian
xAK Bennevis, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Hanyang, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Hinsang
xAK Ming Sang, Shell hits 1
xAK Nanning, Shell hits 1
xAK Haraldsvang, Shell hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Hai Lee



Reduced sighting due to 28% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 28% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
BB Hyuga engages DD Thracian at 1,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Scout at 1,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages DD Scout at 1,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Thracian at 1,000 yards
DD Kuretake engages xAK Hanyang at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Thracian at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Scout at 2,000 yards
DD Scout engages DD Kuretake at 2,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Bennevis at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Thracian at 5,000 yards
BB Ise engages DD Scout at 5,000 yards
xAK Haraldsvang sunk by BB Ise at 5,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Hanyang at 5,000 yards
xAK Bennevis sunk by BB Ise at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Thracian at 8,000 yards
DD Scout engages DD Yakaze at 8,000 yards
DD Scout engages DD Kuretake at 8,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Ming Sang at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Thracian at 11,000 yards
DD Yakaze engages DD Scout at 11,000 yards
DD Scout engages DD Kuretake at 11,000 yards
BB Ise engages xAK Nanning at 11,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages xAK Hinsang at 11,000 yards
Task forces break off...

My emphasis...

So two BB's sidle up innocently to two unmodernised WWI DD's, fire first at a range of 1000 yds and don't hit anything but get beaten up - highly unlikely. EUBanana mentions the night phase of Jutland which is a RL example closely fitting this combat - similar ships, very similar armament. SMS Westfalen, a BB leading the 3rd Battle Squadron's line, encountered a number of British DD's in at least three separate engagements at ranges of 1000yds or less, with the visibility certainly far less than 7000 yds, all surprise meets, even if crews on both sides were fully alert and prepared for such encounters, and sank four DD's, damaged another and escaped without real damage. BB's do seem underrated in WitP(AE) concerning surface combat against weaker ships.

And as for PT's: this is pretty much SAIEW, they have always been too effective. I think most of the trouble is that their MG armament generates lots of hits that are all penetrating hits against ships without belt armor, meaning every single hit causes damage. I assume that the "damage counter" is incremented for every single hit and that the minimum increment is too large, so that MG hits accumulate a quite ridiculous total amount of damage. Now I have no idea what the programming effort would be to correct that effect, so I propose that every ship above, say, 1000 tons should be given a symbolic belt armor that prevents penetrating hits by small-caliber weapons.

[oldman45]

The info on bursting charges, ROF, weight of broadside is interesting, but its not the problem. The problem appears to be accuracy and how the ships are handled by the computer.