High Altitude Sweep Rant

[Sardaukar]

There is a reason why I suggested best MVR band and no higher. [8D] Second highest can be very high, indeed. 

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Thanks much for the post.

You mentioned only sweeps, but how about CAP - should the the same rule be applied? Based upon your essay it seems that it should (apply to CAP also).

The reasoning for treating CAP the same way is sound. ie. it doesn't matter whether you are offensive or defensive, Aircraft typically did not operate regularly at their Max altitude. It may actually be detrimental to CAP to set higher and higher patrol altitudes.

If you consider that CAP, or any fighter force is more effective with numerical superiority then it follows that you would want a strong contiguous CAP to the max extent possible. As coded though only a portion of allotted CAP will be airborne. Another portion will be in a ready or refueling rearming status, and another portion might be made available in a pinch at some delay. If you want your CAP to "get together" before the enemy raid arrives, it then follows that a medium altitude would be better as given an allotted time it would be more likely that they would join the airborne CAP if they had a shorter (lower altitude) distance to travel.

Besides Airborne CAP at 15k' being vectored by radar to a Sweep or raid at 23k' only have 8k' to climb to be Co-Alt. Assuming a 2k'/min ROC that would take 8 minutes. So if Radar is present, I'm not worried about having enough time.

[witpqs]

Thanks.

But following this thread and the other 'diving' thread as one I am starting to wonder if maneuver bands is the way to go at all because of how high that still sets the max for many planes.

Months ago my opponent wanted to impose a limit and we started at 30k then went to 25k. Now after digesting this discussion I feel like we should pick something like 15k or 20k for sweep and CAP, but allow bombers to go higher if desired because CAP will rise to them anyway. Frankly, one reason we settled on a flat altitude instead of a band reference is playability. That's still a factor, but now I've become convinced that a band reference, while mostly sound, just has too many holes (planes with very high bands).

EDIT to Ask: What is the altitude that fighter pilots officially go on oxygen? Perhaps we should use that altitude?

[Lrfss]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: SuluSea



According to Fire in the Sky and other works I'm sure, trained pilots had a knack for detecting the slightest movements some even at great distances.

There's an extensive literature on visual perception. It's nowhere near as good as you think, despite retinal mechanisms producing hyper-acuity. The biggest problem is that good vision is limited to an apex angle of about 15 degrees. To get broader coverage, the eye moves in saccades 5-50 times a second. To ensure that retinal neurones don't fatigue--which they do rapidly--the eye also vibrates from side to side a small amount at about 50 Hz. In operations research studies, we model visual target acquisition as 30 glimpses a second, each with an apex angle of 15 degrees. That's about 0.4% of the sphere around the observer 30 times a second. Head movements occur if the gaze shift is greater than about 20 degrees. To detect motion you have to be looking at it when it moves, and the motion during the fixation has to be large enough that the image moves on the retina. Motion against a non-co-moving background is detected by fixating on the background and observing the image movement.

Holy crap...

OMG, now this is funny as heck kinda stuff now... I vote for a new section in the AE forum called something like "AE's Top Ten Hit's" or something which could at this rate be updated daily if not hourly! LOL!

[herwin]

@TheElf

Thanks for the clarification. [:)]

Theoretically, there was a similar advantage associated with having a faster top speed at any given altitude.

[Sly]

To Castor Toy - about High altitude figters sweeps
I read your previous posts, about never ending dives. You may have right. Air Combat system is really good (point to Elf) with one exception. This is the situation wehn attacking figters flies max altitude sweeps and defending figters cant even reach this altitude. Oscars formation on 38500 feet altitude sweeps Hurricanes base. Hurricanes CAP is on 20000 feet. Air combat formula split both formation on separate flghts. After initial Oscars dive some of portion of Hurricanes CAP arrives on battlefield.  Even if Combat System  'wants' give them some tactical advantage and outclimb Oscars, it does not matter because max ciling alt is 36000 feet. It would be better then Hurricanes dont ever climb, its clear at the start.
To resolve this problem in my game i have hous rule: on very high alt (<31000) either side cant set figters higher then half max altidude rounded up. Oscar Max altitude is 38500ft, so 7500 on very high altitude band :2= 3750, rounded up= 4000. So Oscars can be set on 35000 ft alt (3100+4000). Of course Oscars still can dive some Hurricanes but another Hurricanes have some chance to outclimb some Oscars. Game is more balanced.
You may tried this rule if you want and give some suggestions

[align=left] [/align]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Sly

To Castor Toy - about High altitude figters sweeps
I read your previous posts, about never ending dives. You may have right. Air Combat system is really good (point to Elf) with one exception. This is the situation wehn attacking figters flies max altitude sweeps and defending figters cant even reach this altitude. Oscars formation on 38500 feet altitude sweeps Hurricanes base. Hurricanes CAP is on 20000 feet. Air combat formula split both formation on separate flghts. After initial Oscars dive some of portion of Hurricanes CAP arrives on battlefield.  Even if Combat System  'wants' give them some tactical advantage and outclimb Oscars, it does not matter because max ciling alt is 36000 feet. It would be better then Hurricanes dont ever climb, its clear at the start.
To resolve this problem in my game i have hous rule: on very high alt (<31000) either side cant set figters higher then half max altidude rounded up. Oscar Max altitude is 38500ft, so 7500 on very high altitude band :2= 3750, rounded up= 4000. So Oscars can be set on 35000 ft alt (3100+4000). Of course Oscars still can dive some Hurricanes but another Hurricanes have some chance to outclimb some Oscars. Game is more balanced.
You may tried this rule if you want and give some suggestions

[align=left] [/align]

The climb rates for WWII propellor-driven aircraft weren't that great. About 1950 ft/min for the F4F-4 at sea-level to the maximum altitude the supercharger could maintain the pressure and linearly down from there to 100 ft/min at about 34000 ft. The Hurricane climbed a bit faster. Pace theElf, that meant it took eight or so minutes from launch to 20000 feet, and perhaps another fifteen or twenty or so to get to 36000 ft. So if a Hurricane could climb faster than the Oscar, it had plenty of time to take advantage of it before it ran out of altitude.

[Sly]

You have right if the Oscars flights flies in the game below 36000 ft - max alt for Hurricanes.
When the Oscars flies at 38500 ft alt even if efectiv raid detection give defending player initiativ&nbsp; (opportunity to outclimb enemy fighters)&nbsp; it doesnt metter, Hurricanes simply cant reach 38500 ft altitude. During combat resolution phase i saw many times messege: 4xHurricanes arrives from CAP climbing to 38500 ft (or similar). If they simply cant ever reach this altitude better they shuld stay at dedicated altitude lets say 20.000ft. Hurricanes may have chance to avoid combat in disadventage situation. So in general air combat system works good and is balanced.
But in extremaly service celling situation - like I described - push defenders fighters on extreme altitude without chance to outclimb (bounce) enemy. So in this case Castor has right - dive never ends. But if you bring Oscars and Hurricanes on altitude which both sides can reach (between 20000-35000 ft) game is more balanced.
At least in my opinion. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
[align=left] [/align]

[witpqs]

Elf,

Bump

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Thanks.

But following this thread and the other 'diving' thread as one I am starting to wonder if maneuver bands is the way to go at all because of how high that still sets the max for many planes.

Months ago my opponent wanted to impose a limit and we started at 30k then went to 25k. Now after digesting this discussion I feel like we should pick something like 15k or 20k for sweep and CAP, but allow bombers to go higher if desired because CAP will rise to them anyway. Frankly, one reason we settled on a flat altitude instead of a band reference is playability. That's still a factor, but now I've become convinced that a band reference, while mostly sound, just has too many holes (planes with very high bands).

EDIT to Ask: What is the altitude that fighter pilots officially go on oxygen? Perhaps we should use that altitude?

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Elf,

Bump

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Thanks.

But following this thread and the other 'diving' thread as one I am starting to wonder if maneuver bands is the way to go at all because of how high that still sets the max for many planes.

Months ago my opponent wanted to impose a limit and we started at 30k then went to 25k. Now after digesting this discussion I feel like we should pick something like 15k or 20k for sweep and CAP, but allow bombers to go higher if desired because CAP will rise to them anyway. Frankly, one reason we settled on a flat altitude instead of a band reference is playability. That's still a factor, but now I've become convinced that a band reference, while mostly sound, just has too many holes (planes with very high bands).

EDIT to Ask: What is the altitude that fighter pilots officially go on oxygen? Perhaps we should use that altitude?

10k'...any higher and risk of oxygen deprivation bad stuff outweighs the relative "comfort" of not wearing a mask...

PS - all bets are off in "Top Gun" land...Goose and Mav were seemingly immune to the effects...[;)]

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

PS - all bets are off in "Top Gun" land...Goose and Mav were seemingly immune to the effects...[;)]

Well, obviously they were the best of the best of the best!!!

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

PS - all bets are off in "Top Gun" land...Goose and Mav were seemingly immune to the effects...[;)]

Well, obviously they were the best of the best of the best!!!

Yeah, but Will Smith in Men in Black was recruited from "The Best of The Best of The Best!" [:D]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

PS - all bets are off in "Top Gun" land...Goose and Mav were seemingly immune to the effects...[;)]

Well, obviously they were the best of the best of the best!!!

Yeah, but Will Smith in Men in Black was recruited from "The Best of The Best of The Best!" [:D]

did you mean "Independence Day"? oops, wait...

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Elf,

Bump

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Thanks.

But following this thread and the other 'diving' thread as one I am starting to wonder if maneuver bands is the way to go at all because of how high that still sets the max for many planes.

Months ago my opponent wanted to impose a limit and we started at 30k then went to 25k. Now after digesting this discussion I feel like we should pick something like 15k or 20k for sweep and CAP, but allow bombers to go higher if desired because CAP will rise to them anyway. Frankly, one reason we settled on a flat altitude instead of a band reference is playability. That's still a factor, but now I've become convinced that a band reference, while mostly sound, just has too many holes (planes with very high bands).

EDIT to Ask: What is the altitude that fighter pilots officially go on oxygen? Perhaps we should use that altitude?

Today we go on oxygen from takeoff to landing, technically. We have all sorts of ways to monitor ourselves for Hypoxia, and all Cabin's are pressurized to a certain degree.

Back in the day, it depended on the aircraft, and on the individual pilot. Up to 10k' with no conditioning you can operate free from concern of O2 starvation. Up to 14k' even if the pilot was accustomed to doing so like many of the IJ pilots. Some could go higher, but that was a matter of acclimation and regular occurrence, but it was a dangerous game. As a rule, were we to make one for WitP, I would use 14k' as the cut off.

[witpqs]

OK. In the interest of round increments (multiples of 5k mean fewer mouse-clicks), I propose 15,000ft altitude restriction. From there, we let the game engine do things. How about this as a draft:

- No fighters or fighter-bombers set to an altitude above 15,000ft - except for Recon missions. Other aircraft may be set to any altitude (CAP will always rise to meet them if appropriate anyway).

I would like to hear any comments that people have. I intend to propose this for my next PBM (current opponent might like it too).

[LoBaron]

witpqs this depends on the time of war. 15k is a bit low if you don´t want to nerf the later war planes, maybe starting with the P38.

From the stats some planes are designed into the game to practically rely on the dive for success, always considering the pilot stats are similar.


I still believe that the only improvement could be made through limiting the high alt performance from game perspective.

CT is right when he says that reducing the max alt to best or 2nd best mvr band only results in similar performance differences on a bit lower alt,
though specifically on the sweep vs. CAP this could have a positive effect.

As I see it there is not really any HR needed as long as you don´t force yourself and your opponent into an altitude spiral. As soon as you compare
plane stats and notice your opponents planes outclass you on the altitude game you stay low, problem solved.


Some more noticable negative effects on high altitude missions may be handy but I am still at loss how such a thing could be implemented
without reducing playability or adding new issues.
The most promising is still fatigue (higher op losses, worse combat performance) or range restricitons, but both could could have negative influence on other game aspects.

[castor troy]

The problem with staying low for me is still this message all the time: "xy squadron climbing to 38500ft to intercept". So even if I would set the fighters to 5000ft, they would still try to scramble to the incoming strike. And that´s where the problem starts for me, as soon as they try to do that, they get bounced and bounced and bounced. At least in my PBEM and it happens for both sides. My P-38 are diving on his Oscars, his Oscars are diving on my Hurricanes.

Again, I´ve long accepted that it´s an exploit and I would love to nail this with a hr we could live with but it´s hard for me to see any of the suggested hrs really working (not that I wouldn´t have experimented with suggested hrs or tips on how things can be solved). We still get into the altitude spiral because the dive is so powerful. When my P-38 get a 1:1 or 2:1 without the dive and achieve a 10:1 with the dive then what are you going to try? Forget the 40000ft sweeps, but if the enemy is at 10000ft, what am I going to try? Coming in at 11100ft at least, to get the dive. If you go with unlimited airframes then I don´t have a problem throwing away P-38 at 1:1 against Zekes, problem is the enemy is producing a couple of hundred fighters, while I´m getting 20 P-38G. I just can´t afford to lose my P-38 at a 1:1 or 2:1 rate against Oscars or Zeroes.

Going high and higher should be combined with a couple of REAL disadvantages (like super high fat or far higher op losses) so that you´ve got to make a trade off and have to really think about the alt you attack. Is my opponent keeping his Cap at 10000ft? Ok, shouldn´t be a problem to go in at 15000ft. But what if his fighters are waiting at 17000ft? Ok, lets try it at 20000ft, but that´s already a tradeoff. The enemy is at 20000ft and his fighters really suffer from doing Cap like this? Mine are well rested and the stats of the attacking aircraft are superior, let´s do a sweep at 23000ft this single time.

Doing sweeps at 39000ft? You are able to do them but it should HURT you.

[LoBaron]

I think you are misunderstanding the "xy squadron climbing to 38500ft to intercept" message though.
Sure, they climb. But "climbing to x" is not equal to "reaching x".

And except for if I do something wrong, am outnumbered or have a severe disadvantage in pilot quality
I never get bounced and bounced and bounced.
But it seems we are playing different games sometimes. [;)]

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Going high and higher should be combined with a couple of REAL disadvantages (like super high fat or far higher op losses) so that you´ve got to make a trade off and have to really think about the alt you attack. Is my opponent keeping his Cap at 10000ft? Ok, shouldn´t be a problem to go in at 15000ft. But what if his fighters are waiting at 17000ft? Ok, lets try it at 20000ft, but that´s already a tradeoff. The enemy is at 20000ft and his fighters really suffer from doing Cap like this? Mine are well rested and the stats of the attacking aircraft are superior, let´s do a sweep at 23000ft this single time.

Doing sweeps at 39000ft? You are able to do them but it should HURT you.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe I'm a poor player and I can't use my planes properly, but I see no reason to fly at 15k when my opponent is flying at 32k. If I'm higher, I win. If I'm lower, I lose.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Going high and higher should be combined with a couple of REAL disadvantages (like super high fat or far higher op losses) so that you´ve got to make a trade off and have to really think about the alt you attack. Is my opponent keeping his Cap at 10000ft? Ok, shouldn´t be a problem to go in at 15000ft. But what if his fighters are waiting at 17000ft? Ok, lets try it at 20000ft, but that´s already a tradeoff. The enemy is at 20000ft and his fighters really suffer from doing Cap like this? Mine are well rested and the stats of the attacking aircraft are superior, let´s do a sweep at 23000ft this single time.

Doing sweeps at 39000ft? You are able to do them but it should HURT you.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe I'm a poor player and I can't use my planes properly, but I see no reason to fly at 15k when my opponent is flying at 32k. If I'm higher, I win. If I'm lower, I lose.

What sense does this make when the opposing airframe has a higher ceiling than yours?
You might get a good result for one turn (for whatever this is worth) and then the opponent adapts and
you are in the same situation as before.

So the logical solution would be to cope with the situation as if you have already lost the altitude game, no?


Edit: Its not that I don´t agree flying vhigh alt should have certain drawbacks. The difficulty is to find
some that don´t negatively influence gameplay or other parts of the game.