"Battle for Moscow 1941-1943"

[samba_liten]

Now for the detailed stuff. interestingly, this stuff differs from the source i posted above to some extent.
For another point of view you could check http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?3401-german-to-amp-e
1st Welle:

3 Regiments, each with 3 battalions.
Total equipment for 1 regiment:
36 HMG
112 LMG
18 Heavy Mortars (82mm)
27 Light Mortars
2 50mm AT Guns
9 37mm AT Guns
6 75mm Infantry Guns
2 150mm Infantry Guns

For TOAW we end up with 12 squads to a company * 3 = 36 squads for a battalion * 3 = 108 for a regiment * 3 = 324 for the division.  Then we have 36 HMG * 3 Regiments = 108 HMG, and 18 * 3 Heavy Mortars = 54 Heavy Mortars,27 * 3 = 81 Light Mortars and 2 * 3 = 6 50mm AT Guns as well as 9 * 3 = 18 37mm AT Guns. Finally we have 6 * 3 = 18 75mm Inf. Guns and 2 * 3 = 6 150mm Inf. Guns.
In a list we get, so far:
324 squads
108HMG
54 82mm mortars
81 50mm Mortars
6 50mm AT
18 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns

After i walk the dog, i'll decode the artillery regiment.[:D]

Edit: Forgot the 50mm Mortars.

[samba_liten]

1 Artillery regiment with 4 battalions:
1 Heavy Battalion with:
12 s.F.H 18 (150mm)
6LMG
3 Battalions with:
12 l.F.H 18 (105mm)
6LMG

So, for TOAW we end up with 12 s.F.H 18 and 3 * 12 = 36 l.F.H 18 and 4 * 6 = 24 LMG which i take to represent a light rifle squad.

In a list:
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
24 Light Rifle Squads

Next, we have the divisional AT Battalion.
It had 3 Companies, each with:
12 37mm AT Guns
6LMG
That makes 12 * 3 = 36 37mm AT and 6 * 3 = 18 Rifle Squads. (Heavy or light, i leave for you to make your mind up about!)

Then there is the Recon Battalion. It had armored cars, but i am not able to make out how many from the link you gave. http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?3401-german-to-amp-e says 3. If we take that link for tru, we end up with:

3 SdKfz 221
3 37mm AT
2 75mm Infantry Gun
4 HMG
9 Bicycle Squads
9 Cavalry Squads.

Finally there's the Engineers.
18 Engineer Squads.

[samba_liten]

So, as far as I can make out a 1st Welle infantry division should look like this: (NOTICE: I haven't included any transport assets, as i believe most people do not use the historical number of trucks anyway.)
(This is putting all the divisional units in one counter.)
324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
55 82mm mortars
6 50mm AT
66 37mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
11 Bicycle Squads
11 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Oops...forgot the engineers this time.
Edit 2: Math correction for the blinkin' engineers.
Edit 3: Fixed math and inconsistencies.

[samba_liten]

Looking at the 2nd Welle, i see no differences.

The 3rd Welle would look like this:
324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
9 82mm mortars
48 37mm AT
24 75mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
9 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated numbers and equipment.

[samba_liten]

4th Welle is again slightly different!
Like so:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
6 French 47mm AT (Known as 4.7 cm PAK 181 (f) (ex french M-37,a very effective AT gun, also known as SA 37 APX)or 4.7 cm PAK 183(f) (ex french M-39, development of the M-37) )
67 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
55 Light Rifle Squads
22 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated and revised

[samba_liten]

5th Welle is different again, and for what it's worth, was equipped with captured motor vehicles.
It looks like this:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
36 82mm mortars
60 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
48 Light Rifle Squads
23 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

[samba_liten]

Here comes the 6th Welle.

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
48 37mm AT
18 75mm Inf Guns
12 Czech 155mm
36 l.F.H 18
42 Light Rifle Squads
9 Bicycle Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

[samba_liten]

And the 7th:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
55 82mm mortars
68 37mm AT
4 28mm AT Rifles
18 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
57 Light Rifle Squads
3 SdKfz 221
19 Bicycle Squads
4 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

[samba_liten]

8 Welle is the same as the 7th as far as i can see.
9th and 10th had been disbanded after the French campaign.

11th is a step up, but still a strange mixture compared to earlier waves. Here it is:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
6 50mm AT
54 37mm AT
9 French 47mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
58 Light Rifle Squads
22 Bicycle Squads
12 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads

Edit: Updated

[samba_liten]

12th Welle:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
54 82mm mortars
75 37mm AT
20 75mm Inf Guns
6 150mm Inf Guns
12 s.F.H 18
36 l.F.H 18
58 Light Rifle Squads
23 Bicycle Squads
11 Cavalry Squads
27 Engineer Squads


That's it for today. I'm getting tired. If no-one else volunteers, tomorrow I'll edit out the mistakes that no doubt snuck in, and finish off the list of Welles.

Edit: Updated

[r6kunz]

Polarenper
Nice work on putting that all together!
One question with regards to what type rifle squad to use.  Norm defines rifle squads as: ·        
     "Rifle squad – standard WWII infantry with bolt action rifles and some automatic weapons. ·   
            Heavy rifle squad – U.S. and late WWII (1944+) German or Soviet infantry armed with automatic rifles, and German WWII infantry (italics mine) with more than the usual number of attached light machine guns."

       This suggests that we should perhaps use the heavy rifle squad for the Germans to incorporate the squad-level bipod MG34, and regular rifle squads for Soviets with lighter M-27.  This is, of course, a debatable topic, and indeed was a debate topic of a Forum thread a while back.  TOAW gurus, much more knowledgeable than I, concluded by agreeing to disagree, and “use a consistent system and stick to it”.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                                                             
      This brings up the second topic for debate, and that is how to define the multipurpose MG34, that is LMG, MMG and HMG?  I appears that an HMG actually refers to .50/DShk12.7; note the antiarmor =2, antipersonnel=3 values are the same as the SPAAMG values.  Assigning the tripod MG34 as an HMG  would probably overstate the AT strength for the division, since the 7.92 mm does not have the same antiarmor effect as a 12.7 mm.
Again Norm defines company level heavy weapons: “platoon would typically have two to four rifle squads as well as a number of platoon level heavy weapons (light mortars and light or medium machine guns).”
So, what does this mean in TOAW?
In Road to Moscow[/i], I have used German Heavy Rifle Squads, to incorporate the bipod MG34, and  the tripod MG34 as an MMG. But of course that is my interpretation of Norm...        

[samba_liten]

I don't remember if there is a HMG available in the editor. If not, then what i have put as HMG's could conceivably be used to upgrade the squads to heavy rifle squads. If there is a HMG along with an MMG as well, then perhaps my HMG's should be downgraded to MMG's.

As for the normal rifle squads, they are not shown on the schematic. I simply put one rifle squad for each LMG shown in the infantry regiments, and a light infantry squad for any LMG's in the artillery regiment, recon or anti tank units.
 The light rifle squads are, to my mind, a good way to show the soldiers who did not have as much experience at front line soldiering as the grunts in the infantry regiments, and also to show troops meant to provide security for AT guns etc. I'm guessing here, but i would think that these LMG's didn't come with a full 12 man squad like the main regiment ones did. 

[briantopp]

Amazing work polarender thank you very much!

[BigDuke66]

You can also download Jon Martina stuff here so you can use it offline.:
http://sites.google.com/site/toawredux/ ... ects=0&d=1

[r6kunz]

Welcome back, Brian!  I have always enjoyed your scenarios…the documentation for Operation Typhoon is great.  Any chance of getting your website back up? I am looking forward Battle for Moscow…(I do not have Beta 3.4 loaded yet).

Have you had a chance to look at Road to Moscow Series for TOAW, Vol VIII “What if?”.  It is a  hypothetical scenario where Hitler is persuaded by OKH to attack directly toward Moscow following the  Moscow following the  Battle of Smolensk.  It uses essentially the same set up as Vol III “Guderian Moves South”, and launches the attack on Moscow on 13 August.  

This is the thesis of the book by Russel H.S. Stolfi, Hitler’s Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted.   http://militera.lib.ru/h/stolfi/index.html. It is an interesting read, although he argues the Germans could be at 80% strength, which might be a bit of a reach.  He posits the Germans could take Moscow by 31 August, which might also be  reach. 

     The present The Road to Moscow Series in Beta 3.4 is v1.4, and is also a work in progress. I hope to have a v2.0 for TOAW III 3.5.   I would certainly welcome your expertise and suggestions.
Cheers,
Robert

[briantopp]

ORIGINAL: HPT KUNZ

Welcome back, Brian!  I have always enjoyed your scenarios…the documentation for Operation Typhoon is great.  Any chance of getting your website back up? I am looking forward Battle for Moscow…(I do not have Beta 3.4 loaded yet).

Have you had a chance to look at Road to Moscow Series for TOAW, Vol VIII “What if?”.  It is a  hypothetical scenario where Hitler is persuaded by OKH to attack directly toward Moscow following the  Moscow following the  Battle of Smolensk.  It uses essentially the same set up as Vol III “Guderian Moves South”, and launches the attack on Moscow on 13 August.  

This is the thesis of the book by Russel H.S. Stolfi, Hitler’s Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted.   http://militera.lib.ru/h/stolfi/index.html. It is an interesting read, although he argues the Germans could be at 80% strength, which might be a bit of a reach.  He posits the Germans could take Moscow by 31 August, which might also be  reach. 

     The present The Road to Moscow Series in Beta 3.4 is v1.4, and is also a work in progress. I hope to have a v2.0 for TOAW III 3.5.   I would certainly welcome your expertise and suggestions.
Cheers,
Robert

That you for saying that hpt. These things certainly are fun to do.

Website: it came down when geocities did. Perhaps in the spirit of the newly-renewed game I should find another home for it.

RtM: I havent have a chance to look at that yet I confess, but I think the approach of representing the campaign in a series of bite-sized operations is very smart. (Probably a better fit for TOAW than the monster game I'm playing with here. Up to now I've very rarely tried a scenario lasting longer than 30 turns because the order is a little tall for the PO. But I like this topic and theorize that Elmer can handle this relatively simple interior-lines, inverse-funnel battle). I will take a look at "Road to Moscow" and offer you any comments that arise -- sounds like a nice job.

And I'll check out that book. Personally I'm not in the "Kiev was a mistake" camp, in that regaging debate that has gone on since 1945. Capturing a 600,000-man army is hard to frame as a mistake -- and leaving it on your southern flank, ready to kick in a long salient to Moscow, feels like one. Stolfi certainly has many supporters in the ranks of German memoir-writers, however.

[Oberst_Klink]

Welcome back Hauptmann Kunz! I canvassed for your RTM series, as well as for a break down of the operation Brian is planning into chunks... Alas, I am just a humble observer and playtester and researcher... Whenever you lads need me to find something that might be useful for your projects, drop me a line!

[samba_liten]

Here comes a light division of the 12th Welle, but first an explanation of my reasoning here.

A squad in an infantry regiment counts as a Rifle Squad. They are marked with LMG's on the schematic. Each Battalion has a heavy company with 12 HMG's. I've put those as Heavy Rifle Squads.
Other parts of the division also has LMG's assigned. I've included each one as a Light Rifle Squad, the reason being that the troops in these units would not have been rifle men as such, but assigned to protect howitzers or AT guns etc. Therefore i have chosen to believe that their combat power was less than that of a "proper" rifle squad.

On to the Light Division (equipped with captured motor vehicles):

216 Rifle Squads
48 Heavy Rifle Squads
36 82mm mortars
4 28mm AT Rifles
47 37mm AT
14 75mm Inf Guns
8 s.F.H 18
28 l.F.H 18
39 Light Rifle Squads
30 Bicycle Squads
51 Engineer Squads (including 9 bicycle mounted engineer squads!)

[samba_liten]

13th Welle:
Captured motor vehicles and most weapons were of captured stock.

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
21 37mm AT
8 Light Czech Field Howitzers
16 Czech 105mm Howitzers
21 Light Rifle Squads
21 Bicycle Squads
36 Engineer Squads

[samba_liten]

14th Welle:

324 Rifle Squads
108 Heavy Rifle Squads
21 37mm AT
24 l.F.H 16
21 Light Rifle Squads
21 Bicycle Squads
36 Engineer Squads