Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Redsunrizing

Ki-48-Ib will produce until the Sally factory is going full bore. Eventually, this factory will go away and that'll be it for the Lily. I'll use them, but mainly in areas where

Hello Sir, I was wondering if you are not building the Ki-48-family, are you not upgrading your one engine air-groups to two engine. Or are you going to ultimately upgrade the one engine air-groups to Helen's and Sally's?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I do know that most of the 1E bombers will not upgrade to the 2E any time soon due to the 75 PP cost. I need those PPs to release a few land units (90 Infantry Regiment, Gds Brigade and 20 Division) as soon as possible for missions in SE Fleet area and the SRA. My intent is to produce 40 Sallys and 80 Helens a month. I still haven't made up my mind about the Lily although I'm leaning toward axing the Lily. I will produce it until I make up my decision.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Mike, the hardest thing for me with the economy (indeed, with the game itself), is that I'm a top down thinker (strong "N" in Myers Briggs). Gary Grigsby was clearly a bottom up, linear thinker in spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs (strong "S" type in Myers Briggs). It's very hard for me to process information in such a left brained way.

In other words, I may know I want 160 Helens per month, and I can look up that they require 2XHa-34s, and I can eventually chase down the factories, etc. But multiply this times 1,000 decisions and I go a little crazy. I've got the memory and brain power but not the stamina to go one step at a time. How do you organize your thoughts? What informational tools do you use to get on top of it?

I hope this makes sense. I've said this before on the economy and my forlorn wish the game had a "setup phase," but often get blank stares from the forum. I'm not sure I can correctly communicate my problem. [:D]

Hi Cribtop. I understand your question. I use the tracker to some extent, but not as much as others do. I have some spreadsheets that I use to handle some economic things. PM me your email address and I'll send them to you. For airframes and engines, I have a spreadsheet where I input the number of each airframe I'm building and it'll calculate my engine needs. I suspect tracker can do that but this works for me and is pretty simple to read. So, when I'm figuring out the airframe/engine thing, I simply figure out what planes I want to build and in what quantity. Then I look at the engine portion of that spreadsheet and it tells me how many engines I need to build. I update it once a month with the #s in the pools and what's being produced, both airframes and engines, and at a glance, I see where I stand and can make decisions.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Hey Cribtop, I'm a bit like that, big picture guy... Tony is the details guy... ironically I tend to manage the economy overall, where he focus's on the air/engine details. Basically he tells me what he wants, I tell him what he can have and then we make it happen I tend to form convoys, he micro manages the routes. This is one of many benefits of team play.

I think a common mistake with the Japanese economy is thinking you have to do it all from turn one. The micro view. At the macro view the economy is very robust at the start, and you can tweak it over time (in fact it is better to do it over time). In many ways it is the impact of your opponants style of play that will drive production decisions... and it takes a while to discern this.

Things you do know, you need more PB's you need some more of the aircraft and they need the engines.

In our game we made very little change to R&D until about 4 months into the war. The biggest changes came about 6 months in once we had determined what we needed to do for the middle game.

Cheers

Rob

I totally agree with you Rob. I'm not even going to look at R&D with the possible exception of increasing the A6M3 research. I want to build 60 and am considering converting one of my A6M2 factories when the M3 arrives so I'll probably increase my M3 R&D somewhat. I'll probably also look at the Helen to figure that one out too. I'll worry about R&D later.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Cribtop, I also feel your pain here. I am definitely not a details and left-brained thinker.

I think what is important to me is just repetition and time looking into certain parts of the map on different turns. I will take a turn and micromanage the Float Plane training one turn, and do merchant upgrades another turn. But when I do one thing I'll do ALL of it in a focused way rather than popping around that turn.

As Jocke is away for a day last night I was able to take time and really look into what had been left after the starting few turns. I checked to see what conversions I could still make on ships that had been part of a convoy and just got back into a port with a shipyard, and which ships I wanted to be AVs or AKEs. I looked at my numbers for pilots training (thanks for that list Mike, which gave me the idea to go in and look at mine) and made some tweaks there. I turned off upgrades and replacements for all but several air units that I want to change and increase.

I guess about once a week I take time to do something like this on a deeper level. Each time I do it i understand a bit more and (hopefully) I'll retain that information.

What I did last game was to look at all the monthly tasks at the end of the month. I'm going to try something different here. I'm allocating certain monthly tasks to certain days of the month. I look at pilot training twice a month so I'll choose the 13th and 28th to cull that herd. Maybe the 5th or so for airframe production, etc. This way, any one turn I'll do the normal stuff and zero or one periodic task. I'm going to make a list by date and post it in the front of my AE binder. I hope that prevents me from missing periodic tasks.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Hey Cribtop, I'm a bit like that, big picture guy... Tony is the details guy... ironically I tend to manage the economy overall, where he focus's on the air/engine details. Basically he tells me what he wants, I tell him what he can have and then we make it happen I tend to form convoys, he micro manages the routes. This is one of many benefits of team play.

I think a common mistake with the Japanese economy is thinking you have to do it all from turn one. The micro view. At the macro view the economy is very robust at the start, and you can tweak it over time (in fact it is better to do it over time). In many ways it is the impact of your opponants style of play that will drive production decisions... and it takes a while to discern this.

Things you do know, you need more PB's you need some more of the aircraft and they need the engines.

In our game we made very little change to R&D until about 4 months into the war. The biggest changes came about 6 months in once we had determined what we needed to do for the middle game.

Cheers

Rob

I totally agree with you Rob. I'm not even going to look at R&D with the possible exception of increasing the A6M3 research. I want to build 60 and am considering converting one of my A6M2 factories when the M3 arrives so I'll probably increase my M3 R&D somewhat. I'll probably also look at the Helen to figure that one out too. I'll worry about R&D later.

Mike: A6M3 or A6M3a research? The former is a 'dead ender', the latter the progenitor of later A6 models. Just sayin...

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Ki-21-IIa - 23(17)
Ki-48-Ib - 34(0)
Ki-48-Ib will produce until the Sally factory is going full bore. Eventually, this factory will go away and that'll be it for the Lily.

OK, I gotta ask: How do you get by with so few IJA 2E's? You've got 74 total, which is below the bottom of my build target. I have to aim for 80 - 120 monthly (that's of Sally's too I might add). Even then, I wish I had more but I can't afford them. I'm guessing that you do less ground support than I do? Maybe I'm doing too much? Generally my losses aren't that bad, but there are so many group to first fill out, then replace those useless 1E's.

You've got me worried that I'm missing something here ....

No, you haven't missed anything. What you're looking at is my initial production. I may keep the Lily around. Not sure yet. I haven't made a decision so I won't spend the supply to increase Lily production. My thoughts are to have 40 Sally and 80 Helen production and drop the Lily. Should I choose to keep the Lily, I'll probably increase it to 40. So my production would be either 120 or 160 IJA 2E bombers. Initially, I wanted to upgrade the 3 & 5 AD 1E bombers to Lily, but with the PP cost that isn't going to happen for at least 6 game months. Therefore, the Lily production is now in question. Also, historically, I've pulled most of my IJA bombers away from the frontline for the most part when I abdicated air superiority to the Allies. They were then relegated to minor fronts and ASW. Should that be the case in this game, my bomber replacement needs will most likely be quite low.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Engines:

Ha-31: 45(0) - no change here. Pool of 245 and need is 40.
Ha-32: 60(40) + 0(40) - Need is 140 with a pool of 45.
Ha-33: 65(60) + 0(60) - Need is 179 with a pool of 116.
Ha-34: 10(0) - No need until 4/42 when the Helen come online. This factory is at Maebashi, where there is no supply currently. When that is fixed, I'll increase the factory to 160 for the 80 Helens. The pool is currently 3.
Ha-35: 180(50) + 0(50) + 0(50) - Need is 318 with a pool of 166. Hopefully, the factories will repair fast enough to keep some in the pool.

Other notes:

The Glen uses the Hitachi Amakaze which is not in production. The pool is 122 and will be expended on Glens over the next 6 months or so.

The Topsy I uses the Ha-5, which is not in production. The pool of 101 will be partly or fully expended on Topsy Is. I haven't decided whether or not to use up the engines or upgrade. We'll see.

The Kate N1 uses the Nakajima Hikari, which is not in production. The pool of 99 will be expended on Kate N1s.

Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.
I tend to put additional engine factories to the 32 and 33 to allow faster ramp of my a/c factories. But then I also tend to run pretty tight supply the first 3 months of the war. Maybe too tight? I think I'll go back to my analyses and move my supply margin up a bit based upon what you're doing here.

What daily supply rate do you allow for combat operation support? I use 10K/day until Feb42 at which point I generally have no further problems ...

I usually look about 6 months ahead for new airframes (and thus the engine requirements that go with them), so the Tojo is still outside the window.

I'm hoping my engine pools hold out during the next month or two. I typically had problems keeping any in the pool for the 32 & 35 but never added additional factories. With 2 and 3 factories producing respectively, I hope to keep above water. We'll see....

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Erkki

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo



One nice thing is that the B5N1 will auto upgrade to the B5N2. I do what you plan with the initial B5N2 (build up to about 15 - 20), but then I let the B5N1 upgrade once it runs out of engines. Save me the 15K - 20K of supply of having to further expand the B5N2 factory.

Just a thought ...

Yeah... Except it doesnt upgrade to N2. [X(][;)]

Really? OK, let me check that again, I could have sworn it did ... [:o]

EDIT: You are of course correct! <head slap!> How did I miss that? <another head slap>

Ok, back to drawing board. Gotta see if this is still a good idea. 91eng x 18HI = 1638 HI vs 10K supply to build up the a/c factory .... mmmm not so sure now ...

ARGH!!! [:@][:@]

Thanks for pointing this out to me!!

[&o][&o][&o]

I'm sure. In my case, I've spend 16k supply for the B5N1 factory. I'll produce 99 for half price in HI. That's 99*18 = 1782 HI. Normally it would have been 99*36 = 3564 HI. That's 16k supply spent for a savings of 1782 HI. Once the engine supply is exhausted, the B5N1 factory will need to be changed. I'll most likely change it to B5N2 at a cost of 16k supply (plus the incidentals which I'm ignoring). I may double the B5N2 factory from 16 to 32 instead of changing this one to the N2 but either way, the cost is the same. So, an additional 16k supply is spent. But, if I didn't build the N1, I would have increased the N2 factory to 32 (instead of 16) at a cost of an additional 16k supply, so that would have been spent either way. So basically, you're spending 16k supply to save 1782 HI to produce a very nice plane. I think that's a fair trade.

That sounds confusing but it really isn't. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Erkki




Yeah... Except it doesnt upgrade to N2. [X(][;)]

Really? OK, let me check that again, I could have sworn it did ...

The 6 does not the 5 ... [edit] and what are these B5N1 factories you speak of in the beginning ? We are talking Scen 1 ?

Damian, that B5N1 factory doesn't exist. Also remember, the B5N2 factory is size 0. So you need to spend supply to build up TBs. Instead of spending 32k for a size 32 B5N2 factory, I opted to build it up to size 16 (for 16k supply) and convert the size 10 Nate factory to a size 16 B5N1 factory at a cost of 16k supply.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Remember also the B5N2 is an important ASW asset later when the MAD becomes active...this probably has been pointed out before but seems to get forgotten sometimes.

I'd plan on keeping at least one factory or enough to use when the subs become a real menace.

I've enjoyed reading some of the input here. I disagree with some of it, but it is all food for thought.

Mike I hope you don't mind if I add a link to this AAR in my Econ setup doc and also expand on some of it in said doc.

Actually, I don't know how you do it all without Tracker [;)] I should stop developing it and release a bunch of xls files[8D]

Cheers

Damian, I do use Tracker, but not the same way as most. I learned WitP when it came out back in 2004 while deployed overseas and didn't have access to this web site (it's a game site after all [8|]) so I was in a vacuum and had to find a way to cope with all the data. Spreadsheets were my answer. I have dozens of them then. I've whittled it down to just a handful, but that's the way I learned it. [:D] Tracker is very valuable to me however. I do have a question. I downloaded and installed it, but I can't get it to work. Do I have to wait until I receive my first turn to be able to get it to work correctly?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

Is that all models of the Tojo?

[hkbhsi]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


Don't forget that the Tojo uses the Ha-34. You will need a LOT of 34's by Q3Y42.

After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

Is that all models of the Tojo?

Mike,
since you are playing scenario 1 the Tojos do use the Ha-34 engine. The Ha-35 enigine is used in scenario 2

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I don't want to distract too much from Mike's AAR, but it's a relavent question...

As someone who's been too chicken to play the Japanese side, yet, I see a line of thought that aircraft are "competing" for a particular engine.

Shouldn't having several aircraft using a common engine streamline things, as long as production for that engine is ramped up sufficiently? I would think simplifying the production chains would be a good thing.

Ed-

You're not distracting. This is good stuff. [:D] I don't look at engines that way. Basically, they're needed for aircraft. The decision to make is which types of airframes you want to build. Then you determine the type and number of engines you need and adjust your factories to meet that need. The engine is just a component of that aircraft. It's the capabilities of the aircraft that is important. Now, if we were stuck with a specific engine production, then there would be competition for that engine. But the way the game is, we can adjust our engine production needs to suit our airframe goals.

One thing I will say though, is that you can't keep changing engine factories from type to type without bankrupting your supply situation. My intent is to not change engine factories to another type if at all possible.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

I just checked in the editor and the Tojo uses the Ha-34 in scenario 1 and the Ha-35 in scenario 2.

Just posted this in the Air Thread. Not sure if this is WAD or if this was an oversight when the Tojo was corrected to the Ha-34 (it acutally did use the Ha-34).

Mike, sorry for the hyperbole here. I've never played Scen 2 and didn't realize this difference existed.

Anyway, Mike is playing Scen 1 here (I beleive), so he needs to plan for the Ha-34 in the Tojo.

Yup, I'm playing scenario 1 so it is the Ha-34. Thanks.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

I would never set up aircraft production purely around a given engine.

Normally, I would agree with you, but I am doing that for two different aircraft. First is the B5N1 and I will use up all 99 engines that otherwise would not be uses in the game. That was discussed at length above.

The second is the Ki-57-I, which uses the Ha-5. There are 101 in the pool, enough for 50 planes. I'm not sure I'll produce all 50 but since I've decided to go the Topsy I -> II route, I'll at least build them until the Topsy II comes out. We'll see. I need to compare the differences between the two planes to see if it's worth building them out. At the very least, it'll save 1800 HI (at a cost of 5k supply to increase the factory from 5 to 10). And that 5k would have been spent anyway since I plan on building 10 transports a month regardless of the airframe type. Gotta remember to compare the two planes....

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Hey Cribtop, I'm a bit like that, big picture guy... Tony is the details guy... ironically I tend to manage the economy overall, where he focus's on the air/engine details. Basically he tells me what he wants, I tell him what he can have and then we make it happen I tend to form convoys, he micro manages the routes. This is one of many benefits of team play.

I think a common mistake with the Japanese economy is thinking you have to do it all from turn one. The micro view. At the macro view the economy is very robust at the start, and you can tweak it over time (in fact it is better to do it over time). In many ways it is the impact of your opponants style of play that will drive production decisions... and it takes a while to discern this.

Things you do know, you need more PB's you need some more of the aircraft and they need the engines.

In our game we made very little change to R&D until about 4 months into the war. The biggest changes came about 6 months in once we had determined what we needed to do for the middle game.

Cheers

Rob

I totally agree with you Rob. I'm not even going to look at R&D with the possible exception of increasing the A6M3 research. I want to build 60 and am considering converting one of my A6M2 factories when the M3 arrives so I'll probably increase my M3 R&D somewhat. I'll probably also look at the Helen to figure that one out too. I'll worry about R&D later.

Mike: A6M3 or A6M3a research? The former is a 'dead ender', the latter the progenitor of later A6 models. Just sayin...

What?! I thought the A6M3 was in the A6 upgrade path! [X(] Well, that changes things. [:D]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: hkbhsi



After the last official patch and data update, the Tojo is equipped with the Ha-35 engine.

Is that all models of the Tojo?

Mike,
since you are playing scenario 1 the Tojos do use the Ha-34 engine. The Ha-35 enigine is used in scenario 2

Yup, I got it. Thanks. [:)]

[Mundy]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

You're not distracting. This is good stuff. [:D] I don't look at engines that way. Basically, they're needed for aircraft. The decision to make is which types of airframes you want to build. Then you determine the type and number of engines you need and adjust your factories to meet that need. The engine is just a component of that aircraft. It's the capabilities of the aircraft that is important. Now, if we were stuck with a specific engine production, then there would be competition for that engine. But the way the game is, we can adjust our engine production needs to suit our airframe goals.

One thing I will say though, is that you can't keep changing engine factories from type to type without bankrupting your supply situation. My intent is to not change engine factories to another type if at all possible.

Ah, gotcha.

So Japanese players generally keep engine production tailored closely to demand.

I probably would have ended up with an enourmous pool of unused engines...

Ed-

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

You're not distracting. This is good stuff. [:D] I don't look at engines that way. Basically, they're needed for aircraft. The decision to make is which types of airframes you want to build. Then you determine the type and number of engines you need and adjust your factories to meet that need. The engine is just a component of that aircraft. It's the capabilities of the aircraft that is important. Now, if we were stuck with a specific engine production, then there would be competition for that engine. But the way the game is, we can adjust our engine production needs to suit our airframe goals.

One thing I will say though, is that you can't keep changing engine factories from type to type without bankrupting your supply situation. My intent is to not change engine factories to another type if at all possible.

Ah, gotcha.

So Japanese players generally keep engine production tailored closely to demand.

I probably would have ended up with an enourmous pool of unused engines...

Ed-

Well, that's my intent. But, there are certain engines that will be used in large quantities throughout the war. The Ha-35 comes to mind. Building a surplus in the pool is sometimes a good thing. Late in the war when the Allied are bombing us into the stone age in Japan, every thing we have in pools is secure from enemy bombing. Your opponent can not touch the stuff there. A huge HI surplus will keep your economy running even after he has isolated Japan. (That will just prolong the inevitable though. [:D])

[Mike Solli]

Question for you guys:

[R] means restricted, right?

What does [S] mean?