Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Force Z is too far away to catch up with a 30 kt BB TF.
I don't know what port the IJN holds on the South China Sea, but it is usual IJN practice to move up some AKEs to a forward base so they can rearm quickly. I would suspect Miri, if he holds it, because it can provide fuel as well.

I slept on this situation, and you are right about the distance. Unless he stuck around, which I don't think he will.

There's no AKE at Miri or Brunei. I'm bombing both, Miri just today. I think Saigon's river won't permit BBs, right? Is Cam Rahn large enough to rearm without an AKE at scenario start? I suppose he could run across northern Java, past Soerbaja to Babel-de-bob, but that would be a lot more dangerous than Formosa.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Personally I think the PoW is about the only thing you cannot afford to lose in the SRA. Fast BBs are invaluable and even though you are playing stock game with almost non existant AA it can still disrupt strikes and at least eat a few torps/bombs that could have hit CVs instead.

It very easy to unintentionally get within Nell range caused by reaction settings or run into unsighted convoys that eat up OPS. Force Z can be very useful but don´t throw it away. In my first game I ran into a 4BB TF. That was bad news...[:(]

I know POW was pretty near the most modern BB in the world when the war started, fire-control and AA-wise. I've only had her survive the first day once in an AI game. I would be willing to risk her to stop a Palembang landing for a month or six weeks, but the geography is hard. Once the landing gets up-river she can't help. Oosthaven can be a Japanese route to Palembang since they can take their own heavy escorts along, but a risk-seeking Japanese player will go with CLs and go straight up-river. I don't have enough of anything at Palembang yet to hold together. LCUs are inbound, but I need time.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So, now that I know the IJN is short of rounds, I expect it will withdraw. To where? Cam Rahn? Formosa? Other? Opinions welcome.

CRB would likely be the closest base for BB replenishment.

And should I expose Force Z in pursuit? I might find it, I might not. If I do Z could be clocked, or it might bag me a rare Japanese BB in exchange for yard time. I could swallow hard, let the BBs go this time, and maintain my fleet-in-being for the inevitable need around Java/Sumatra.

Without Sinkawang and the "shoulder" of Borneo to support his claims on Sumatra, you've a better than even matchup with Force Z orbitting in the IO. I agree with your placement in the IO for now. For goodness' sake, don't pursue the Japanese into the teeth of Netties with force Z!

I'd draw my line for intervention between Borneo and Sumatra until such time as he captures Singkawang and places an air HQ there. When that happens, all bets are off down to Batavia.

It's hard being an AFB sometimes.

So sorry, Yankee dog! You die now! BANZAI!

In the mountains near Chengting the Japanese attack yet again, odds falling to 1:2, casualties 275 (J) to 221 (A). He really, really wants this hex cleared.

Drawing even casualties against the Japs at this stage of the war is an excellent achievement for your Chinese troops. Good job stopping them here, even if it is temporary.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I would be willing to risk her to stop a Palembang landing for a month or six weeks, but the geography is hard. Once the landing gets up-river she can't help. Oosthaven can be a Japanese route to Palembang since they can take their own heavy escorts along, but a risk-seeking Japanese player will go with CLs and go straight up-river. I don't have enough of anything at Palembang yet to hold together. LCUs are inbound, but I need time.

Yes, the Pow can't make it up river to Palembang, but you can accomplish this interdiction by hovering on the hex just in front of Palembang with a reaction =1 order. Your BB(s) should be able to do this just fine. Your risk calculus is reasonable UNTIL he gets air support nearby. However, as he's nowhere near Singapore, Singkawang or Kuching, your big gun ships still hold the upper hand.

You're right about the coup de main amphibious assault on Palembang. I've done that in a recent PBEM CG where my opponent had removed his surface ships from the area. It's a high 'pucker factor' move, but a worthwhile payout for a JFB if successful. I wouldn't dream about doing it without air cover though...

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
So, now that I know the IJN is short of rounds, I expect it will withdraw. To where? Cam Rahn? Formosa? Other? Opinions welcome.

CRB would likely be the closest base for BB replenishment.

Thanks. I don't know the Japanese port sizes at all.

And should I expose Force Z in pursuit? I might find it, I might not. If I do Z could be clocked, or it might bag me a rare Japanese BB in exchange for yard time. I could swallow hard, let the BBs go this time, and maintain my fleet-in-being for the inevitable need around Java/Sumatra.

Without Sinkawang and the "shoulder" of Borneo to support his claims on Sumatra, you've a better than even matchup with Force Z orbitting in the IO. I agree with your placement in the IO for now. For goodness' sake, don't pursue the Japanese into the teeth of Netties with force Z!

I know, I know. But I still want to! [:)] (But I won't.)

I'd draw my line for intervention between Borneo and Sumatra until such time as he captures Singkawang and places an air HQ there. When that happens, all bets are off down to Batavia.

Which will be a problem, since Batavia is my dash-in refuel spot for Z. If I have to go to Perth the transit time and fuel cost will eat it up.

It's hard being an AFB sometimes.

So sorry, Yankee dog! You die now! BANZAI!

For now. Just for now. [:)]

In the mountains near Chengting the Japanese attack yet again, odds falling to 1:2, casualties 275 (J) to 221 (A). He really, really wants this hex cleared.

Drawing even casualties against the Japs at this stage of the war is an excellent achievement for your Chinese troops. Good job stopping them here, even if it is temporary.

The mountains are great. It's odd, since this was an accident, totally due to him driving through there. My guys were running west as fast as their bare feet could carry them.

[BBfanboy]

My experience with Force Z against Japanese BBs has been dismal - Nagato and true BB sisters eat it up. They have better gunnery and are usually supported by long-lance equipped DDs and CAs. POW can hold her own in a long range day action against the Kongos and escorts, as long as they don't close to within 10,000 yards - Long Lance territory. It helps to replace Tom Phillips as commander. His stats look not too bad but he seems to take Force Z into night actions where it gets slaughtered. Someone with high Naval skills and agression around the 60 mark [you don't want a Halsey leading a charge with BBs into the teeth of Japanese torpedoes!] will do much better in battle.

Against aircraft, the British AA is weak. The 5.25 DP gun is too big to fire fast enough and the 2pdr pom-pom puts up lots of shells but doesn't seem to hit much - a range problem maybe? I think the problem is that neither US nor British ships have AA fire control slaved to radar until mid 1943. Air radar upgrades always seem to help with AA firepower.

FWIW that has been my experience with many sandboxed and AI scripted encounters.

[Encircled]

Good turn for him

I lost the PoW trying to do too much in the first week, and the Repulse needs about a year in the yards.

I'm now very nervous about using them anywhere north of Batavia

[zuluhour]

Just as a complete alternate strategy, I am trying to use Force Z as an interdiction TF between Ambon and the southern Solomons as KB spots permit. I'll let you know how this turns out.[:D]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

You're right about the coup de main amphibious assault on Palembang. I've done that in a recent PBEM CG where my opponent had removed his surface ships from the area. It's a high 'pucker factor' move, but a worthwhile payout for a JFB if successful. I wouldn't dream about doing it without air cover though...

I have an LCU unloading at Oosthaven and another pretty strong Indian unit a day out. Oosthaven is mined and has a base unit fortifying.

Considering what you and others said I moved Z's patrol area forward just a touch, one hex from Oosthaven on the IO side, with a 2-hex NW/SE span. Reaction on 2. If he comes at Oosthaven to spoil the landings I'll fight. I don't thnk he has the ammo to do that though.

The last point-search read I had on his BBs was them heading SW chasing the remnants of my Tf into Palembang. I expect they will turn for Cam Rahn this turn. To that end, I moved every sub I have in the S. China sea onto courses to intercept. I have a number of S-boats as well as almost all of the Dutch subs working out of Singers. I also put all of the TBs at Singers on drop tanks at 5000 ft. and assigned about half my fighters to escort. They might go. They have the range unless he hugs Borneo, and there are subs assigned for that. I also put 100% of my Batavia B-17s on naval attack at 8000 ft. Their fatigue is not bad considering four straight days of Miri bombing. If he tries to run past Soerbaja I have almost all my surface forces left in one big 12-ship TF at Soerbaja with the CLs air searching NW and due N, but still in port. I have a 4-DD reserve there. Every capable naval attack plane at Soerbaja is set to fly. I did not sortie my remaining surface forces at Singers. I need them.

All this will probably not amount to anything, although I have some hope for the Strings if he comes in range. But I really think he'll go across northern Borneo and probably take fuel as he passes.

[zuluhour]

I appologize, I forgot you were looking to make a concentrated Palembang stand, circumstances permitting. This would of course require CPT Trayhorns services aboard the Prince of Wales.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I appologize, I forgot you were looking to make a concentrated Palembang stand, circumstances permitting. This would of course require CPT Trayhorns services aboard the Prince of Wales.

????

But I'm watching the National L. pound the Tigers, so I may not be thinking straight.

[Dan Nichols]

If you set the TBs at singers to use DTs, they will not have a torpedo to use. Check the aircraft stats before and after setting the DTs.

[Chickenboy]

Dan reminds me of an obvious question, but one that needs asking: Did you 'buy' torpedoes for your Air HQs on Malaya?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

If you set the TBs at singers to use DTs, they will not have a torpedo to use. Check the aircraft stats before and after setting the DTs.

Ah . . . oops?

Edit: I went and looked, and it's not the Strings, it's the Beest IIIs. But I don't know how to read the stats. The unit assignment screen lets me use drop tanks and torpedoes, but the stats screen doesn't show a torpedo load for either normal or extended range. Is that a misprint? The DB entry makes it look like all the plane has are guns.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Dan reminds me of an obvious question, but one that needs asking: Did you 'buy' torpedoes for your Air HQs on Malaya?

Yeah. Tons a torps bought far and wide. Did it on turn 2.

[Bullwinkle58]

What a let-down. Just ran the movie and there was no attack on the BBs of any kind. Solid patrol hits from Singers it looked like, but nobody volunteered to be a hero. AAR tomorrow.

Looks like I got a sub!

[Dan Nichols]

If you look at it, the Beasts without DTs will show a torpedo on the aircraft Data tab of the unit screen. If you
select use drop tanks, then look at the Aircraft Data tab, it will show only guns and a DT as it's normal and
extended load. The drop tank is primarily useful for transferring aircraft.

BTW, you know why I know this and understand it? right!! [:@]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Dan Nichols

If you look at it, the Beasts without DTs will show a torpedo on the aircraft Data tab of the unit screen. If you
select use drop tanks, then look at the Aircraft Data tab, it will show only guns and a DT as it's normal and
extended load. The drop tank is primarily useful for transferring aircraft.

BTW, you know why I know this and understand it? right!! [:@]

I just spent twenty minutes looking at the manual and various screenshots and I am confused. Not unusual after 3+ years with the game that something hits me between the eyes. We've all been there (except Alfred. [:)])

Here's screen #1, showing the mission planning range rings a lot of players would use without digging into the DB.





I read this as Black= torp/no drop tank
Red=bomb/no drop tank
Gray=torp/drop tank
Purple=bomb/drop tank

The manual, in the Drop Tank section, says those outer rings are DT rings. The issue of shuttle ranges is elsewhere.

[Bullwinkle58]

When I pull up the hotkey 'D' lisitng for the Beest I get this:





This tells me, a visual thinker who has to really concentrate when numbers are involved, that:

1) the plane can use torperoes and DTs concurrently
2) Torps/DTs are the "worst", heaviest configuraiton you can do (makes sense)
3) How to correlate this to a range is not immediatley apparent, which is why I use the range rings.

My best guess would be "normal radius with drop tanks" would be the one which applies, since the torpedo is the "normal" ordnance for a TB. And I think that agrees with the gray ring.

[Bullwinkle58]

But, but, but . . .

When I open the Aircraft Data hotpoint on the unit screen, I see THIS:





This is with Torps and DTs both selected. This seems to indicate that the aircraft can NEVER carry both a torp and a DT at the same time, which seems to contradict the previous two planning approaches.

Also, the game should have error-trapping code so you can't choose DTs and torps at the same time and they both stay yellow. To me that's what code is for, to prevent the need to check the DB for every ordnance/tank combo on every aircraft for every mission. If the torps can't work they should "red out."

What am I missing?