AI Improvement Mod (1.05 Extended Release)

[Icemania]

Don't worry I've tested even more aggressive WarWillingness settings in the Policy Files. If you want more, I can give you more!

But please test this first. I'm mindful that different people play in different ways. So just make sure you accept those invitations to go to war to help your friends ...

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Seriously though I'm pretty pumped.

Please remember it's an Alpha and I need feedback. Even so, there is no way I'm playing Vanilla again.

[Icemania]

GxBO Bug Tech Support Thread

[ParagonExile]

ORIGINAL: Icemania

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Seriously though I'm pretty pumped.

Please remember it's an Alpha and I need feedback. Even so, there is no way I'm playing Vanilla again.

You've put me in a position of picking extended universe (which I basically redid and overhauled with my personal preferences) or your mod which improves the game immeasurably.

Ack, Icemania, damn you!

[Blackstork]

Hehe just release extended - compatible version.
Cause i am working with own immersion/extension features on extended base to try this one i must to switch back from extended which is also pimped on my side

[Tcby]

Luckily for me I didn't install the Beta...so I'm still able to test this mod. I've just fired up a game with Haree, Das, and Blackstork's graphics, so any screenshots I post will be beautiful [8D]. I'll be testing with all normal settings, + excellent homeworlds and few pirates. If you are dead set against pirates in test games Ice, let me know and I'll start another game.

Regarding your design questions for tractor beams and assault pods, the use of tractor beams seems an easy way to mitigate the current issue with AI hovering at ~80% range all the time.

IMO Ikkuro should have assault pods, firstly because their flavour text says they love to pull new technology apart and tinker with it. Where do you get 'new' tech from if you haven't taken it from somebody else...? Researching it yourself would negate the need to pull it apart to understand it. Secondly, their high troop strength also means they have some of the strongest boarding pods in the game. This should be a factor when you play against them.

Finally, I'm glad you swapped the Quameno weapon focus to gravitic. Not only are torps out of character, but I feel they give too much of an inherent advantage to the Quameno. Their research speed means that they spend the least time of any race in early-mid game, which is the only time the torp line isn't strictly superior.

[Icemania]

Nice idea with the Ikkuro and Tractor Beams Tcby ... let me do some testing. As I don't play with Tractor Beams, when exactly do they pull in, versus push away?

[Tcby]

They push / pull based on the relative firepower of the ships. ships with lower firepower are always pulled in, and vice versa. The obvious issue is that a ship with Titan beams and / or assault pods always wants to pull other ships in, as long as they are somewhat comparable in size or have significant numerical overmatch.

[Icemania]

Tractor Beams worked well when the Ikkuro ship was significantly larger. I would imagine that is the normal case for people who use these weapons in game. However, for the AI in this mod a lot more of the battles will be relatively even.

In a test between an Ikkuro Cruiser with Beams/Pods/Tractor Beams and a Kiadian Cruiser with Torpedoes (so evenly matched in size and technology) ... the Ikkuro ship pushed the Kiadian ship away, out of Beam range and into good Torpedo range, which turned the battle into a slaughter.

In a test between an Ikkuro Cruiser with Beams/Pods/Tractor Beams and a Kiadian Destroyer with Torpedoes (so the Ikkuro ship is larger Size 500 v Size 400) ... the tractor beam was not powerful enough to pull the Kiadian ship into close range (noting also the "All Weapons" ship tactic), the ships stayed at a range where Beams were weak and Torpedoes were still strong, so the Kiadian ship won.

I had much better results if the Ikkuro Cruiser tactic was set to "Point Blank". As the Ikkuro Ship was focused on it's target the Tractor Beam slowly pulled it closer. It managed to defeated the Kiadian Destroyer by boarding but lost all Shields in the process. Note again that there is nothing in the Design Templates as yet to set "Point Blank" for the AI. And if we did have that setting, we also need to be able to configure the Tractor Beams, otherwise there will be situations where the Ship Tactic and Tractor Beams work against each other.

The other issue is that the technology tree for Assault Pods means that the AI has to research quite advanced Fighters and Point Defence as well to get to the better Assault Pods. The AI still has to research a Primary Weapon to get those shields down and enable boarding so the research investment is massive. Again, this may work for human players used to having a large advantage, but this seems a poor strategy for the AI, given the limitations above. If we could set the Ship Tactic and Tractor Beam Tactic for a Ship, I would also break those links in the Technology Tree, to make this combination more feasible.

[Blackstork]

Wow, cant wait for extended compatible version :V

[Icemania]

Help me test this version and iron it out, and I'll get to Extended faster ... [:)]

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Tcby
I'll be testing with all normal settings, + excellent homeworlds and few pirates. If you are dead set against pirates in test games Ice, let me know and I'll start another game.

I've played a number of test games with Pirates so go for it. My concern is that there isn't much more I can do to help the AI. Often they allow themselves to get wiped out or they sign-up to agreements which bankrupt them.

In the very early pre-warp game, before they have any defences, they should emulate the human tactic i.e. sign an agreement but then cancel as soon as they leave. After they have some reasonable defences it would be fine to have some variation in AI behaviour. In the meantime, it's just a handicap.

[Tcby]

Good point about comparable ship size. I agree that given the evidence you have provided, tractor beams and assault pods are not feasible as things stand. With that in mind, here are my thoughts on your points:

If ship tactics can be set in the future, could we drastically increase the power of tractor beams to make them effective against same-size ships? I can't think of a reason not to do this. IIRC tractor beam strength is governed by the same firepower rating as other components, and so can be adjusted.

On the subject of research investment, this is not strictly necessary for the Ikkuro or other races with powerful troops. Their boarding strength is already very large relative to other races. A slight increase to boarding range (and shield penetration...?) from the first tech level may also offset the limited pull of tractor beams versus same-size or larger ships.

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

Edit: I've set pirates to very few and weak. They'll be a token presence, there for the sake of my own enjoyment.

[DeadlyShoe]

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

It's not really necessary for boarding to be viable in big fleet actions. Judging how many pods are necessary for a target can actually get pretty complicated when you start factoring in point defense and that more pods = faster capture.

[Tcby]

I think our wires are crossed someplace. I wasn't trying to say that a fleet with boarding pods should be able to capture another fleet. The reason it is unfeasible is also the reason why the AI can get away with not going deeply into the tree, so it's all good.

Or have I mistaken your meaning?

[Tcby]

Another thought on tractor beams:
If we can't use them well on AI ships, how about AI bases? How well does a large space port pull in enemy ships? Is there a large benefit from it having a size advantage? Or does it always push enemy ships? A rail gun or titan beam focused race would really benefit from tractor beams on ports and other bases, if they worked properly...

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Tcby
If ship tactics can be set in the future, could we drastically increase the power of tractor beams to make them effective against same-size ships? I can't think of a reason not to do this. IIRC tractor beam strength is governed by the same firepower rating as other components, and so can be adjusted.

Absolutely, I was thinking that during the testing. We would still need to be able to set Tractor Beam tactics to ensure they are aligned with Ship Tactics, otherwise they will work against each other.

The ability to set Tractor Beam tactics would allow me to include Tractor Beams for other races as well. For example, the Ackdarian are very passive and use Torpedoes, I could use Tractor Beams to stop enemy ships from getting to point blank range i.e. an alignment between weapon, tactics and racial characteristics.

ORIGINAL: Tcby
On the subject of research investment, this is not strictly necessary for the Ikkuro or other races with powerful troops. Their boarding strength is already very large relative to other races. A slight increase to boarding range (and shield penetration...?) from the first tech level may also offset the limited pull of tractor beams versus same-size or larger ships.

The other reason that I don't think the AI necessarily need to delve into the assault pod tree is that AI ships with boarding pods do not unload intelligently. All ships attacking a target will unload their pods at that target, regardless of whether such numbers are necessary. So when assessing the success of AI boarding pods we aren't really looking for a 1:1 ratio in which each ship is against 1 other ship, and either succeeds or fails at the capture. In comparable fleet battles a few ships will be captured due to massive boarding pod overkill, thus negating the need to extra tech in that regard. Additional benefits of boarding tech are capture range and shield penetration, which I have not factored in for this overview.

Noted. It's a real pity they don't load intelligently. In the Research Order I could certainly prioritise Tractor Beam research over higher levels of Assault Pods. We could set up some Fleet Battles to see what happens with the improved tactics and Tractor Beams.

I don't think we should rule out Assault Pod research though. I can break those links to other research areas easily enough. Further increasing shield penetration, boarding range and speed maybe a good idea for balance given the need to reduce other weapons to fit the Pods and Tractors in the first place.

From what I can tell Shield penetration looks to be a number rather than a percentage, so even at maximum technology it looks extraordinarily low.

If we can't set Ship Tactics and Tractor Beam Tactics, maybe significant changes here are an option.

[Tcby]

I think this would all be simpler if there were a separate tech for push versus pulling tractor beams. That specificity + much stronger beams would allow us to emulate the more complex interactions of ship tactics (point blank etc), IF the latter is an issue for Elliot to implement. If that makes sense. I wonder what that would do to the importance of thruster tech...it would probably be somewhat diminished if everyone had a powerful push or pull beam.

Also in case you missed my last post when you were typing your response, I'm testing tractor beams on bases now.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Tcby
Another thought on tractor beams:
If we can't use them well on AI ships, how about AI bases? How well does a large space port pull in enemy ships? Is there a large benefit from it having a size advantage? Or does it always push enemy ships? A rail gun or titan beam focused race would really benefit from tractor beams on ports and other bases, if they worked properly...

Good idea. I just tested this and Tractor Beams on a Large Spaceport will pull in even a Size 1500 Capital Ship.

The problem is Tractor Beam range. Even a Maximum Technology Tractor Beam only has a range of 440. A Torpedo or Missile opponent on "All Weapons" will remain well out of range.

I'm going to test drastically increasing Tractor Beam range so that you can't kite Spaceports, as it's far too easy to abuse. Tractor Beams will be set to have a range slightly higher than the equivalent tech level Missile Range.

If Tractor Beam Tactics could be set this would also be useful for other races e.g. passive races like the Ackdarian could push ships away.

Either way, if you want that Spaceport you'll have to attack with sufficient force that you overwhelm the Tractor Beams of the Spaceport ...

[Icemania]

I wouldn't suggest a new technology for Tractor Beams, it just needs a tactic setting.

The problem with Tractor Beams on Spaceports is Troop Transports. If you pull them in, it might help with the invasion.

So ideally "pull in" Tractor Beams should hold ships at a close range, say 100, so that they are not close enough to invade (and push them back out to 100 as required), but they are close enough for short range weapons on the Spaceport to cause havoc.

This would make sneaky surprise invasions from human players more difficult.

And even in peacetime those Troop Transports should never be allowed to close within 100 range. A friendly Tractor Beam could make sure you don't get too close and act as a trigger for the AI to send you a warning.