The Advanced Squad Leader "Valor of the Guards" module really likes them. They are super-elite troops with the same morale as the (I would argue over-strong) SS units (though less firepower).ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
Another one example of NKVD units's action.
10th Stalingrad Rifle Division of VV NKVD during defense of Stalingrad.
From Wiki(in English) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_NKVD_Rifle_Division
More detailed but in Russian - http://voenspez.ru/index.php?topic=7580.0
Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21, bcgames
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thedoctorking
- Posts: 2971
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
IDK the best ASL germans are the elite combat engineer assault squads....those guys at 8-3-8 if I remember right are insanely strong.
ASL is interesting because if you play a TOE german battalion vs like similar size/sized soviet forces you can very quickly see why the Germans won a lot in 1941---its mainly because they have so many more and better supporting weapons/arms within the BN compared to a similar amount of soviets/soviet formations.
Soviet best units are 6-2-8? if I remember right or 5-3-8 for elite engineers.....been awhile since ive done some ASL...basically at close range Soviets can be very deadly in ASL but anything over 3 hexes the germans usually win out...esp due to the amount of LMG and MMG.
Anything with 8 morale in ASL is tough...look at US Marines in the pacific and US paras those squads are insanely tough as well.
ASL is interesting because if you play a TOE german battalion vs like similar size/sized soviet forces you can very quickly see why the Germans won a lot in 1941---its mainly because they have so many more and better supporting weapons/arms within the BN compared to a similar amount of soviets/soviet formations.
Soviet best units are 6-2-8? if I remember right or 5-3-8 for elite engineers.....been awhile since ive done some ASL...basically at close range Soviets can be very deadly in ASL but anything over 3 hexes the germans usually win out...esp due to the amount of LMG and MMG.
Anything with 8 morale in ASL is tough...look at US Marines in the pacific and US paras those squads are insanely tough as well.
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
Hey John.ORIGINAL: 56ajax
Hi Dreamslayer,
What was the operational purpose of these units? Internal security or military operations against a foreign power?
Looks like for both. Before the war they was for internal security,security of Fronts/M.D.s rears and for strengthening of NKVD border guards units in various border districts. But with start of the war various units of various military(and not only) departaments was used on front.
J Erickson, The Soviet High Command, gives for 1934: civilian and Military traffic accident numbers. 62000 accidents with damage to 7000 locomotives. A large scale war mobilisation saw huge numbers of accidents( delays arising from accidents) involving the movement of troops by rail, NKVD took over safety on the railroads next year, but he does not say what effect that had on accident numbers. NKVD had a quite diverse remit.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Some corrections about the armored cars for the start TOE of some units.
(also some info for case #2)
Rifle divisions (currently has only 4 BA-10) :
10 BA-10 (sep.recon btn)
3 BA-20 (sep.signal btn)
Motorized divisions (currently has only 39 BA-20) :
BA-10 18 (10 - sep.recon btn, 4x2 moto-rifle rgt)
BA-20 31 or 33 (7 - sep.recon btn, 6x2 moto-rifle rgt, 9 – tank rgt, 3 or 5 – regulation coy(traffic control coy))
(repair-recovery btn – 20 BT)
Tank divisions :
BA-10 56 (12 - sep.recon btn, 17x2 – tank rgt, 5 - moto-rifle rgt, 5 - sep.signal btn)
BA-20 39 (6 - sep.recon btn, 8x2 – tank rgt, 12 - moto-rifle rgt, 5 - sep.signal btn)
(sep.signal btn – 1 KV, 4 T-34, 7 BT)
Cavalry divisions. I'm still looking for detailed info about it. But currently the issue is that the actual TOE has only BA-10's but TOE has both.
Case #2.
Some units has in their shtats a tanks and a/c that was designed for “non-combat” sub-units. E.g. signal units / regulation coys(traffic control coys)/ repair-recovery units etc. So, it's unlikely that they had a same priority as a combat sub-units (like tank battalions/recon battalions etc). So, perhaps the elements like a tanks and a/c should be removed from TOE.
Then need to remove :
Rifle Div - 3 BA-20 (sep.signal btn)
Motorized Div - 3 or 5 – regulation coy(traffic control coy) and (repair-recovery btn – 20 BT)
Tank Div – 5 BA-10 (sep.signal btn), 5 BA-20 (sep.signal btn), (sep.signal btn – 1 KV, 4 T-34, 7 BT).
(also some info for case #2)
Rifle divisions (currently has only 4 BA-10) :
10 BA-10 (sep.recon btn)
3 BA-20 (sep.signal btn)
Motorized divisions (currently has only 39 BA-20) :
BA-10 18 (10 - sep.recon btn, 4x2 moto-rifle rgt)
BA-20 31 or 33 (7 - sep.recon btn, 6x2 moto-rifle rgt, 9 – tank rgt, 3 or 5 – regulation coy(traffic control coy))
(repair-recovery btn – 20 BT)
Tank divisions :
BA-10 56 (12 - sep.recon btn, 17x2 – tank rgt, 5 - moto-rifle rgt, 5 - sep.signal btn)
BA-20 39 (6 - sep.recon btn, 8x2 – tank rgt, 12 - moto-rifle rgt, 5 - sep.signal btn)
(sep.signal btn – 1 KV, 4 T-34, 7 BT)
Cavalry divisions. I'm still looking for detailed info about it. But currently the issue is that the actual TOE has only BA-10's but TOE has both.
Case #2.
Some units has in their shtats a tanks and a/c that was designed for “non-combat” sub-units. E.g. signal units / regulation coys(traffic control coys)/ repair-recovery units etc. So, it's unlikely that they had a same priority as a combat sub-units (like tank battalions/recon battalions etc). So, perhaps the elements like a tanks and a/c should be removed from TOE.
Then need to remove :
Rifle Div - 3 BA-20 (sep.signal btn)
Motorized Div - 3 or 5 – regulation coy(traffic control coy) and (repair-recovery btn – 20 BT)
Tank Div – 5 BA-10 (sep.signal btn), 5 BA-20 (sep.signal btn), (sep.signal btn – 1 KV, 4 T-34, 7 BT).
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
The new forming cavalry divisions should has reduced TOE (41b Cavalry Division). Atm at least 2nd,53rd,4th(there are many untill August,but I'm not checked each) has TOE 41a Cavalry Division.
Probably there is need to create the additional TOE between 41a and 41b. Because initial versions of "raiding" Cavalry divisions was about 3-3,5k men and had minimal support/rear part.
This new additional TOE about(based on GKO's order on 11 Aug,41):
3277 men total, horses - 3553, rifles - 2826, MG - 36(probably some of them should be AA), LMG - 50, PPSh - 200, 45mm AT-guns - 12, 76mm guns - 12, 82mm mortars - 9, 50mm mortars - 48, trucks - 15 , special trucks/cars - 10.
This new TOE could be from August and current 41b could be moved to December or to January.
Probably there is need to create the additional TOE between 41a and 41b. Because initial versions of "raiding" Cavalry divisions was about 3-3,5k men and had minimal support/rear part.
This new additional TOE about(based on GKO's order on 11 Aug,41):
3277 men total, horses - 3553, rifles - 2826, MG - 36(probably some of them should be AA), LMG - 50, PPSh - 200, 45mm AT-guns - 12, 76mm guns - 12, 82mm mortars - 9, 50mm mortars - 48, trucks - 15 , special trucks/cars - 10.
This new TOE could be from August and current 41b could be moved to December or to January.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
8th IAK PVO (Baku).
Starts forming on basis of NKO order 19 June 1941 (same order was started forming 6th and 7th IAK's PVO). Forming finished 14 July 1941. The basis of this new formation became air-regiments of 27th and 71st IAD's.
The HQ whole war was located in Baku.
Commander (14 July 1941 – 29 Sep 1942) – Ivan Puntus (colonel, from 1 Sep 1943 GMA).
Same M.D. :
68th IAD.
Probably need to remove from the game data. Looks like this unit was forming in Far East as part of 5th BAK (Long Range Aviation), but forming was not finished and IAD was disbanded in July 1941.
25th SAD.
On start of the war HQ located in Kutaisi.
Missed 18th BAP (Kutaisi) that had SB-2. Nov 1941 was transferred to Leningrad Front.
35th IAP PVO (currently in 27th IAD). Located in Chorokh AF (Batumi), probably whole war located there.
Starts forming on basis of NKO order 19 June 1941 (same order was started forming 6th and 7th IAK's PVO). Forming finished 14 July 1941. The basis of this new formation became air-regiments of 27th and 71st IAD's.
The HQ whole war was located in Baku.
Commander (14 July 1941 – 29 Sep 1942) – Ivan Puntus (colonel, from 1 Sep 1943 GMA).
Same M.D. :
68th IAD.
Probably need to remove from the game data. Looks like this unit was forming in Far East as part of 5th BAK (Long Range Aviation), but forming was not finished and IAD was disbanded in July 1941.
25th SAD.
On start of the war HQ located in Kutaisi.
Missed 18th BAP (Kutaisi) that had SB-2. Nov 1941 was transferred to Leningrad Front.
35th IAP PVO (currently in 27th IAD). Located in Chorokh AF (Batumi), probably whole war located there.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
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- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
50th Rifle Division
Initial location of this unit should be more to west. Currently it starts near Polotsk.
From the war diary(?) of Western Front on 22 June:
"50th RD in the Dunilovichi area on the march from Polotsk to Krevo area."
From Wiki :
On 15 June the division received order from 3rd Army commander "from 18 June to march from Polotsk area and concentrate in the forest 10 km SW of Smorgon". On the march the division was subordinated to herself by command of 13th Army. Received the task "on 24 June together with 5th Tank Division, Vilna(Vilnius) infantry school and 84th NKVD rgt to cover Molodechno from NW at the Danyushevo-Smorgon line. Parts of the division immediately went into battle with enemy forces on the Viliya river, northwest of Molodechno, with battles retreated to Pleshchenitsy.
On the map of Western Front on 22 June:
(marks: 1 – Postavy, 2 – Glubokoe, 3 - Dunilovichi)
Initial location of this unit should be more to west. Currently it starts near Polotsk.
From the war diary(?) of Western Front on 22 June:
"50th RD in the Dunilovichi area on the march from Polotsk to Krevo area."
From Wiki :
On 15 June the division received order from 3rd Army commander "from 18 June to march from Polotsk area and concentrate in the forest 10 km SW of Smorgon". On the march the division was subordinated to herself by command of 13th Army. Received the task "on 24 June together with 5th Tank Division, Vilna(Vilnius) infantry school and 84th NKVD rgt to cover Molodechno from NW at the Danyushevo-Smorgon line. Parts of the division immediately went into battle with enemy forces on the Viliya river, northwest of Molodechno, with battles retreated to Pleshchenitsy.
On the map of Western Front on 22 June:
(marks: 1 – Postavy, 2 – Glubokoe, 3 - Dunilovichi)
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Auto-limitation of maximum TOE for Rifle divisions on T1.
It's a bit an issue, I'll try to explain why. On T1 all Soviet Rifle division getting this limit, an exceptions are only for RD's that has frozen status or RD's of Western M.D. . Maybe this finding is nice for units at border which (potentially) could be involved into border battles so they could not normally execute their mobilization plans. But why is this limitations activates for units that located somewhere in a rear, even for divisions in Vologda, Ivanovo and Kostroma.
For now start setup looks very strange. Very many units right before the German aggression has too large actual TOE (men total and various elements), some of them has 13-14k men.
It's hard to say how many each unit had but units on the border should has larger actual TOE than units in rear areas. E.g. (according to Isaev's “From Dubno to Rostov”) 17 Rifle/Mountain divisions of border 5th,6th,12th,26th Armies had 8-10k each (only 173rd RD had 7177 men) – it's best infantry units of most priority M.D.
Because of this strange limitation and various differences between border/rear units it's impossible to see something like mobilization on T1.
It's a bit an issue, I'll try to explain why. On T1 all Soviet Rifle division getting this limit, an exceptions are only for RD's that has frozen status or RD's of Western M.D. . Maybe this finding is nice for units at border which (potentially) could be involved into border battles so they could not normally execute their mobilization plans. But why is this limitations activates for units that located somewhere in a rear, even for divisions in Vologda, Ivanovo and Kostroma.
For now start setup looks very strange. Very many units right before the German aggression has too large actual TOE (men total and various elements), some of them has 13-14k men.
It's hard to say how many each unit had but units on the border should has larger actual TOE than units in rear areas. E.g. (according to Isaev's “From Dubno to Rostov”) 17 Rifle/Mountain divisions of border 5th,6th,12th,26th Armies had 8-10k each (only 173rd RD had 7177 men) – it's best infantry units of most priority M.D.
Because of this strange limitation and various differences between border/rear units it's impossible to see something like mobilization on T1.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Huge surplus of 12,7 mm AAMG's (DShK) in the game.
TOE of 41a RD has 14 these AAMG's , but it should be only 9 (per 3 in each rifle rgt). Also airbases has these DShK's in tons right from start, hard to say for sure but “airbases” at start of the war had shortage of AA weapons and mostly had only batteries of 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's. Probably there is could be added a new start TOE for airbases that would has only about 12 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's instead of current medium AA guns and DShK's. Later during the war it could be changed.
According to “The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The statistical compilation #1”, by The Institute of Military History / The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1994. At start of the war USSR had 2033 DshK's (1878 in RKKA and 155 in VMF(Fleet)).
Currently in the game more than 4100 of these AAMG's and it's only on the part of the USSR's map.
The presence of DShK's in RKKA (total - 1878):
“West” - (Leningrad M.D. - 150, NW Front – 97, Western Front – 98, SW Front – 174, 9 A – 118)
“RGK” - (16A – 33, 20A – 18, 22A – 4, 24A – 8, separate units/formations – 12)
“South” - (Transcaucasus M.D. - 91, Mid-Asian M.D. - 49)
“East” - (Transbaikal M.D. - 103, Far East Front – 696)
“Internal/Rest” - (M.D.s: Arkhangelsk – 4, Moscow – 48, Volga – 25, Orel – 25, Kharkov – 4, North-Caucasus – 53, Ural – 8, Siberian – 10; Central subordination's units – 50).
So “off-map areas” has about 750-850 (plus something from Leningrad and Arkhangelsk M.D.).
I guess actual presence of these AAMG's on the game map should be about 1000-1100, but atm it's 4 times more (about 4100).
TOE of 41a RD has 14 these AAMG's , but it should be only 9 (per 3 in each rifle rgt). Also airbases has these DShK's in tons right from start, hard to say for sure but “airbases” at start of the war had shortage of AA weapons and mostly had only batteries of 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's. Probably there is could be added a new start TOE for airbases that would has only about 12 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's instead of current medium AA guns and DShK's. Later during the war it could be changed.
According to “The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The statistical compilation #1”, by The Institute of Military History / The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1994. At start of the war USSR had 2033 DshK's (1878 in RKKA and 155 in VMF(Fleet)).
Currently in the game more than 4100 of these AAMG's and it's only on the part of the USSR's map.
The presence of DShK's in RKKA (total - 1878):
“West” - (Leningrad M.D. - 150, NW Front – 97, Western Front – 98, SW Front – 174, 9 A – 118)
“RGK” - (16A – 33, 20A – 18, 22A – 4, 24A – 8, separate units/formations – 12)
“South” - (Transcaucasus M.D. - 91, Mid-Asian M.D. - 49)
“East” - (Transbaikal M.D. - 103, Far East Front – 696)
“Internal/Rest” - (M.D.s: Arkhangelsk – 4, Moscow – 48, Volga – 25, Orel – 25, Kharkov – 4, North-Caucasus – 53, Ural – 8, Siberian – 10; Central subordination's units – 50).
So “off-map areas” has about 750-850 (plus something from Leningrad and Arkhangelsk M.D.).
I guess actual presence of these AAMG's on the game map should be about 1000-1100, but atm it's 4 times more (about 4100).
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
Huge surplus of 12,7 mm AAMG's (DShK) in the game.
TOE of 41a RD has 14 these AAMG's , but it should be only 9 (per 3 in each rifle rgt). Also airbases has these DShK's in tons right from start, hard to say for sure but “airbases” at start of the war had shortage of AA weapons and mostly had only batteries of 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's. Probably there is could be added a new start TOE for airbases that would has only about 12 7.62 mm quad-AAMG's instead of current medium AA guns and DShK's. Later during the war it could be changed.
According to “The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The statistical compilation #1”, by The Institute of Military History / The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1994. At start of the war USSR had 2033 DshK's (1878 in RKKA and 155 in VMF(Fleet)).
Currently in the game more than 4100 of these AAMG's and it's only on the part of the USSR's map.
The presence of DShK's in RKKA (total - 1878):
“West” - (Leningrad M.D. - 150, NW Front – 97, Western Front – 98, SW Front – 174, 9 A – 118)
“RGK” - (16A – 33, 20A – 18, 22A – 4, 24A – 8, separate units/formations – 12)
“South” - (Transcaucasus M.D. - 91, Mid-Asian M.D. - 49)
“East” - (Transbaikal M.D. - 103, Far East Front – 696)
“Internal/Rest” - (M.D.s: Arkhangelsk – 4, Moscow – 48, Volga – 25, Orel – 25, Kharkov – 4, North-Caucasus – 53, Ural – 8, Siberian – 10; Central subordination's units – 50).
So “off-map areas” has about 750-850 (plus something from Leningrad and Arkhangelsk M.D.).
I guess actual presence of these AAMG's on the game map should be about 1000-1100, but atm it's 4 times more (about 4100).
Just checking Askey, he has 15 in the TOE, 3 in each regiment (9) 2 each in the light and medium art regiments and 1 each in the Chemical Company and AA battalion. (The game probably has 14 as chemical company is modelled as Support)
In terms of actual numbers they were very scarce, many RDs didnt have any at all, and those that did were lucky to have 20% TOE.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Probably Askey confused 12,7mm AAMG DShK's(also called "heavy MG's" in various Soviet documents) with 7,62mm quad-AAMG's(also called "complex AAMG's").Just checking Askey, he has 15 in the TOE, 3 in each regiment (9) 2 each in the light and medium art regiments and 1 each in the Chemical Company and AA battalion. (The game probably has 14 as chemical company is modelled as Support)
From that I've found about AA in initiate Rifle Division TOE:
rifle rgt(x3) - 6x 7,62mm and 3x 12,7mm (total in division - 18 + 9)
sep.AA btn - 1x 7,62mm, 8x 37mm, 4x 76/85mm
artillery rgt - 2x 7,62mm
howitzer rgt - 3x 7,62mm
Sep.chemical company has 1x LMG and 30x flamethrowers.
In the game the initiate Rifle Division TOE has 15x GAZ-AAMG. So in the game all these 7,62mm AAMG's mounted on trucks. But I think it's unrealistic because RKKA had huge shortage of trucks (especially at start).
(remark: instead of "heavy MG's" better to say "large-caliber MG's")
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
- Location: St.Petersburg
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Surplus of 37mm AA guns (61-K) in the game.
There are currently 2700 61-K AA guns in the game from the start.
According to “The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The statistical compilation #1”, by The Institute of Military History / The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1994. At start of the war USSR had 1258 37mm AA guns (1214 in RKKA and 44 in VMF(Fleet)).
The presence of 61-K AA guns in RKKA (total - 1214):
“West” - (Leningrad M.D. - 127, Baltic M.D. – 116, Western M.D. – 212, Kiev M.D. – 292, Odessa M.D. – 70)
“South” - (Transcaucasus M.D. - 164, Mid-Asian M.D. - 24)
“East” - (Transbaikal M.D. - 48, Far East Front – 32)
“Internal/Rest” - (M.D.s: Arkhangelsk – 4, Moscow – 75, Volga – 5, Orel – 4, Kharkov – 8, North-Caucasus – 25, Ural – 4, Siberian – 4).
The presence of 61-K AA guns in VMF(Fleet) (total – 44):
Baltic Fleet – 18
Black Sea Fleet – 16
Pinsk Military Flotilla – 10
There are currently 2700 61-K AA guns in the game from the start.
According to “The combat and numerical strength of the armed forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945. The statistical compilation #1”, by The Institute of Military History / The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 1994. At start of the war USSR had 1258 37mm AA guns (1214 in RKKA and 44 in VMF(Fleet)).
The presence of 61-K AA guns in RKKA (total - 1214):
“West” - (Leningrad M.D. - 127, Baltic M.D. – 116, Western M.D. – 212, Kiev M.D. – 292, Odessa M.D. – 70)
“South” - (Transcaucasus M.D. - 164, Mid-Asian M.D. - 24)
“East” - (Transbaikal M.D. - 48, Far East Front – 32)
“Internal/Rest” - (M.D.s: Arkhangelsk – 4, Moscow – 75, Volga – 5, Orel – 4, Kharkov – 8, North-Caucasus – 25, Ural – 4, Siberian – 4).
The presence of 61-K AA guns in VMF(Fleet) (total – 44):
Baltic Fleet – 18
Black Sea Fleet – 16
Pinsk Military Flotilla – 10
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
https://en.topwar.ru/31576-zenitnye-sre ... -rkka.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_ ... video.html
First production order in 39 was for 900.
"As of 22 June 1941, there were:-1370 pcs 37-mm. automatic anti-aircraft guns rev.xnumx (1939-K)"
"During the 1941 battle of the year, anti-aircraft guns suffered significant losses - until 1 September 1941, the 841 gun was lost, and in just 1941 a year - 1204 guns. Huge losses were hardly compensated for by production - on 1 January 1942, there was about 1600 37-mm anti-aircraft guns available".
900 produced in 1939. 75 a month.
1940?. ( assuming 40 production went to inventory we have 30 months at 75 a month and total produced of 2250, kinda close to the in game numbers but has them all as in service)
By June 41 in service rises to 1370, so 470 produced in 6 months. 75 a month for 18 months, 6 of them in 41 and 12 in 39. What happened in 1940?, why not another 900?. Were they produced and held as inventory, seems possible.
In 6 months of of combat 1204 of them were lost, leaving 166, and therefore the last 6 months of 41 produced and accepted into service brought that number to 1600, so 1450 produced/accepted into service in last 6 months of 41.
241 a month.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_ ... video.html
First production order in 39 was for 900.
"As of 22 June 1941, there were:-1370 pcs 37-mm. automatic anti-aircraft guns rev.xnumx (1939-K)"
"During the 1941 battle of the year, anti-aircraft guns suffered significant losses - until 1 September 1941, the 841 gun was lost, and in just 1941 a year - 1204 guns. Huge losses were hardly compensated for by production - on 1 January 1942, there was about 1600 37-mm anti-aircraft guns available".
900 produced in 1939. 75 a month.
1940?. ( assuming 40 production went to inventory we have 30 months at 75 a month and total produced of 2250, kinda close to the in game numbers but has them all as in service)
By June 41 in service rises to 1370, so 470 produced in 6 months. 75 a month for 18 months, 6 of them in 41 and 12 in 39. What happened in 1940?, why not another 900?. Were they produced and held as inventory, seems possible.
In 6 months of of combat 1204 of them were lost, leaving 166, and therefore the last 6 months of 41 produced and accepted into service brought that number to 1600, so 1450 produced/accepted into service in last 6 months of 41.
241 a month.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Dreamslayer
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:37 pm
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
There are not a much info about production of this gun. From what I've found: in 1939 was produced test series - 15 guns. "900" it's a order(plan) for 1940, but actually was produced about 600. Number "1370" I've seen in source of 1974(it's a book with statistical spreadsheets or something),
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/mobilization/m ... er2_5.html - in 3rd spreadsheet on this page (try to search "1370").
Order/plan for 1941 was 1700. Production from 1941 was only in factory #4 in Kolomna(Moscow region) that was in July 1941 was evacuated to Krasnoyarsk(Siberia).
For various military equipments there was no stable production before the war.
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/mobilization/m ... er2_5.html - in 3rd spreadsheet on this page (try to search "1370").
Order/plan for 1941 was 1700. Production from 1941 was only in factory #4 in Kolomna(Moscow region) that was in July 1941 was evacuated to Krasnoyarsk(Siberia).
For various military equipments there was no stable production before the war.
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
https://worddisk.com/wiki/37_mm_automat ... 39_(61-K)/
Jan of 38 Artillery factory 8 produced the test pieces, testing for firing in Oct 38, live fire test comparing in 40 compared to Boffers and no difference between the two, so pretty sure its in serial production in 39.
https://en.performancegunworks.com/868- ... 37-mm.html
In 1939, the new Soviet anti-aircraft gun was put into service, having received the official designation - the 37-mm anti-aircraft automatic gun of the 1939 model and the GAU index - 52-P-167. A new automatic anti-aircraft gun was supposed to form the basis of the air defense of army units and subunits of the Red Army.
In the same year, the mass production of the new Soviet anti-aircraft guns began. The main production base was the plant. Kalinin. Later on, during the years of the Great Patriotic War, the serial production of the 37 mm anti-aircraft gun was transferred to Plant No. 4 named after. Voroshilov, where he continued until 1945.
I think your right that there is to many, but i dont have better numbers to replace what others came up with[:(]
Jan of 38 Artillery factory 8 produced the test pieces, testing for firing in Oct 38, live fire test comparing in 40 compared to Boffers and no difference between the two, so pretty sure its in serial production in 39.
https://en.performancegunworks.com/868- ... 37-mm.html
In 1939, the new Soviet anti-aircraft gun was put into service, having received the official designation - the 37-mm anti-aircraft automatic gun of the 1939 model and the GAU index - 52-P-167. A new automatic anti-aircraft gun was supposed to form the basis of the air defense of army units and subunits of the Red Army.
In the same year, the mass production of the new Soviet anti-aircraft guns began. The main production base was the plant. Kalinin. Later on, during the years of the Great Patriotic War, the serial production of the 37 mm anti-aircraft gun was transferred to Plant No. 4 named after. Voroshilov, where he continued until 1945.
I think your right that there is to many, but i dont have better numbers to replace what others came up with[:(]
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
There are not a much info about production of this gun. From what I've found: in 1939 was produced test series - 15 guns. "900" it's a order(plan) for 1940, but actually was produced about 600. Number "1370" I've seen in source of 1974(it's a book with statistical spreadsheets or something),
http://www.soldat.ru/doc/mobilization/m ... er2_5.html - in 3rd spreadsheet on this page (try to search "1370").
Order/plan for 1941 was 1700. Production from 1941 was only in factory #4 in Kolomna(Moscow region) that was in July 1941 was evacuated to Krasnoyarsk(Siberia).
For various military equipments there was no stable production before the war.
Table 22 gives the munition plan for 3205 37AA guns, oddly the table 19 before arrive at different number 4177, so they are clearly referring to different plans.
Game has 2700 in June 41, it looks to me like that maybe was sourced from table 15, 2787 37 AA guns.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
A.Ivanov "Artillerija SSSR v period Vtoroy Mirovoy voiny" St. Petersburg, 2003:
3,896 Soviet M1939 37mm guns were completed in 1942 increasing to total production to 6,802 by end of year and 19,116 by 45.
From that i get 6,802 by end of 42, remove the 42 production of 3,896 and in 41 you have 2906 for 41 and earlier production.
3,896 Soviet M1939 37mm guns were completed in 1942 increasing to total production to 6,802 by end of year and 19,116 by 45.
From that i get 6,802 by end of 42, remove the 42 production of 3,896 and in 41 you have 2906 for 41 and earlier production.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
Askey states approx 1,433 37mm AA guns in the field as of June 41 and another 1400 added by the end of the year. So your figures are reasonably close.
Molotov : This we did not deserve.
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.
C'est la guerre aérienne
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Dreamslayer
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RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues
That “The statistical compilation #1" ,1994 contains about 1/3 spreadsheets about artillery. Most detailed spreadsheets about artillery in Military Districts (plus Far East Front) on 1 Jan 41, on 1 June 41, received during June , on start of the war.
37mm guns on 1 Jan – on 1 June – at start of the war - M.D. :
45 –- 115 – 127 – Leningrad
48 –- 116 – 116 – Baltic
44 –- 164 – 212 – Western
52 –- 244 – 292 – Kiev
38 –- 70 -- 70 -- Odessa
128 – 152 – 164 – Transcaucasus
6 –-- 24 --24 –- Mid.-Asian
24 –- 48 -- 48 –- Transbaikal
32 –- 32 -– 32 –- Far East Front
0 --- 4 –-- 4 –-- Arkhangelsk
50 –- 75 –- 75 – Moscow
1 --– 5 –-- 5 –-- Volga
0 --– 4 –-- 4 --- Orel
0 --– 4 –-- 8 --- Kharkov
24 –- 21 –- 25 –- N.Caucasus
0 –-- 4 –-- 4 –-- Ural
0 –-- 4 –-- 4 –-- Siberian
Total on 1 Jan – 492
Total on 1 June – 1086
Total on start of the war - 1214
About VMF(Fleet) only about start of the war – 44.
There is also spreadsheet about arty on central depots , zero of 37mm AA guns on 1 Jun and start of the war.
About pre-war production. It was unstable very often. It was absolutely normal if there was year-order/plan for 1000 units(?), but actual year production was about 20-100.
After start of the war the rates of production was increased significantly.
37mm guns on 1 Jan – on 1 June – at start of the war - M.D. :
45 –- 115 – 127 – Leningrad
48 –- 116 – 116 – Baltic
44 –- 164 – 212 – Western
52 –- 244 – 292 – Kiev
38 –- 70 -- 70 -- Odessa
128 – 152 – 164 – Transcaucasus
6 –-- 24 --24 –- Mid.-Asian
24 –- 48 -- 48 –- Transbaikal
32 –- 32 -– 32 –- Far East Front
0 --- 4 –-- 4 –-- Arkhangelsk
50 –- 75 –- 75 – Moscow
1 --– 5 –-- 5 –-- Volga
0 --– 4 –-- 4 --- Orel
0 --– 4 –-- 8 --- Kharkov
24 –- 21 –- 25 –- N.Caucasus
0 –-- 4 –-- 4 –-- Ural
0 –-- 4 –-- 4 –-- Siberian
Total on 1 Jan – 492
Total on 1 June – 1086
Total on start of the war - 1214
About VMF(Fleet) only about start of the war – 44.
There is also spreadsheet about arty on central depots , zero of 37mm AA guns on 1 Jun and start of the war.
About pre-war production. It was unstable very often. It was absolutely normal if there was year-order/plan for 1000 units(?), but actual year production was about 20-100.
After start of the war the rates of production was increased significantly.