Who was better: Patton or Rommel

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne



It would only be fair that you presented your views first, vonRom. It was you who said "If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton."


JT

Heheh

So you're speaking for ID?

And ID speaks for you?

You completely ignored my initial request, and now you add your two cents' worth? [8|]

ID "Dared" me. So let him state D'Este's views on who planned Operation Cobra.

Heheh

I can assure you that ID did not write to me "you do this, and I do this,..., and then we can shut that vonRom guy up! " [:D] There is no conspiracy found here. In fact, I urge you to keep up the postings, as you make these forums interesting to follow. ID speaks not for me. I doubt ID is even interested in my opinions. But, yes, on this occation I guess I did meddle in favour of ID, not that he needs any....[;)]


JT

heheh

Any conspiracy is purely in your own mind. . .

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

And yes, you did meddle. . .

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?

[Error in 0]

heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?

1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.[:)]
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun [;)] I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ [;)] ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?

1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.[:)]
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun [;)] I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ [;)] ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT

1) ID has never 'defended' me.

Amazing that you both need to help each other [8|]

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity

I almost fell off my chair. . .

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).

But you ARE defending him [8|]

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone

I shouldn't wonder. . .

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.

Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .

[Error in 0]

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

heheh

I find it interesting that you both need to jump to each other's defense.

Isn't there anyone here who can stand on their own two feet and deal with me one-on-one?

1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.[:)]
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun [;)] I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ [;)] ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT

1) ID has never 'defended' me.

Amazing that you both need to help each other [8|]

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity

I almost fell off my chair. . .

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).

But you ARE defending him [8|]

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone

I shouldn't wonder. . .

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.

Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .

If you tell yourself everymorning that you are bright and beatiful, one day you will start believing it. I dont think of any here as my enemies. Only as my 'enemies'. What is the subtle difference there? Think about it.

I take it you disagree on my view of Dresden. Pleas express your feelings in a somewhat more coherent fashion.

As of truth and integrity: This comment was coined at both sides. Is this also too subtle? Then think about it.



JT

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: JallaTryne



1) ID has never 'defended' me.
2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity.[:)]
3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).
4) This is a public fora, so many people can respond to one and the same person. My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone for a while. Its part of the fun [;)] I can also understand why it may feel difficult. When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit. [ [;)] ] Especially if I am convinced!


JT

1) ID has never 'defended' me.

Amazing that you both need to help each other [8|]

2) No one here defend each other. We just try to defend truth and integrity

I almost fell off my chair. . .

3) Im sure many could fight you on their own. ID certainly can (and this is again not a 'defence' of him).

But you ARE defending him [8|]

My Dresden view started off making me feel rather alone

I shouldn't wonder. . .

When I am alone facing 'the enemy', I think "maybe I am just simply wrong", and that is always difficult to admit.

Well, first of all, if you think people on this forum are your enemies then you should relax for a while.

To me, no one is my enemy - it is all just friendly discussion.

Stop and think that maybe some of the opinions you hold ARE wrong. . .

If you tell yourself everymorning that you are bright and beatiful, one day you will start believing it. I dont think of any here as my enemies. Only as my 'enemies'. What is the subtle difference there? Think about it.

I take it you disagree on my view of Dresden. Pleas express your feelings in a somewhat more coherent fashion.

As of truth and integrity: This comment was coined at both sides. Is this also too subtle? Then think about it.



JT

JT:

If you are searching for the truth, then all the power to you.

I wish you all the best.

[Error in 0]

ORIGINAL: Von Rom


JT:

If you are searching for the truth, then all the power to you.

I wish you all the best.

Thank you.



JT

[IronDuke_slith]

Von Rom

Your uncritical acceptance of ANY written word is quite scary. . .

I enjoyed this particular insult from the man who quoted from the Patton Homepage on the web, and the Patton Society Museum homepage, but nevermind, I'm sure others can see the irony as well as I.

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ID:

I accept your challenge.

The topic will be:

Who originally planned Operation Cobra?

You have D'Este's book.

So please provide his view as to Who Planned Operation Cobra.

I will then provide my evidence.

I think you've missed something. You said:

Von Rom
If anyone wants, I will take the time and write up an example (with sources) of where D'Este in his book is wrong (or provides misleading information) about an important aspect of Patton.

Why do I now have to read D'Este to figure out who he credits with the plan for Operation Cobra? Surely, since you are writing the critique, it is for you to present D'Este's evidence then demolish it with a rebuttal of your own. You've never believed anything I've pointed out to you in the past, so why would you want me to recount Colonel D'este's opinion, now? I thought this was your research? Why do I need to get involved?

Regards,
IronDuke

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Bormann alive! They found his body in 1972 exactly where Artur Axmann said he'd seen it together with the body of Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger following the 'breakout' from the Berlin bunker. Just because he was supposedly spotted in various locations around the World doesn't mean he escaped. 'Elvis Presley' has been seen repeatedly since his death in 1977, it doesn't mean he's alive. Farago (or should that be 'Farrago'[:D]) is a journalist who likes conspiracy theories, he has little credibility as a historian no matter how readable his books are!

Calm down. . .

In 1972 a doctor tried to identify two bodies that were found by using dental records he had seen 30 years previous to this examination. In other words, he allegedly identified Bormann's teeth FROM MEMORY. From this, he allegedly stated one of the bodies was Bormann [8|]

The West German Gov't, hoping to close the issue and sweep it under the carpet, declared Bormann dead.

However, MANY serious and credible sources refused to believe it including the Israeli Mossad, which continued to hunt for Bormann.

There are hundreds of creditable reports since the end of the war until the 1960s of sightings of Bormann at various locations in Europe and later in South America, when his presence in a North Italian monastery was first announced. In the same year, his wife Gerda (a rabid Nazi and daughter of Supreme Party Judge, Walter Buch) died of cancer in South Tyrol, though his ten children survived the war. It was then alleged that Bormann had escaped (like other loyal Nazis) via Rome to South America. Rumoured to have settled in Argentina where he was living secretly as a millionaire, allegedly spotted in Brazil and also in Chile, Bormann's traces proved as elusive as the anonymity in which he first rose to power.

However, the ultimate fate of Bormann is of only secondary importance.

Really! Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie. Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi. Seems Mr. Farago certainly had a flair for the dramatic, hardly a credible source to be quoting from and certainly not an author to be recommending to readers as an 'eye opener' if they wixh to discover more about Patton eh Von Rom[:-]

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

Bormann alive! They found his body in 1972 exactly where Artur Axmann said he'd seen it together with the body of Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger following the 'breakout' from the Berlin bunker. Just because he was supposedly spotted in various locations around the World doesn't mean he escaped. 'Elvis Presley' has been seen repeatedly since his death in 1977, it doesn't mean he's alive. Farago (or should that be 'Farrago'[:D]) is a journalist who likes conspiracy theories, he has little credibility as a historian no matter how readable his books are!

Calm down. . .

In 1972 a doctor tried to identify two bodies that were found by using dental records he had seen 30 years previous to this examination. In other words, he allegedly identified Bormann's teeth FROM MEMORY. From this, he allegedly stated one of the bodies was Bormann [8|]

The West German Gov't, hoping to close the issue and sweep it under the carpet, declared Bormann dead.

However, MANY serious and credible sources refused to believe it including the Israeli Mossad, which continued to hunt for Bormann.

There are hundreds of creditable reports since the end of the war until the 1960s of sightings of Bormann at various locations in Europe and later in South America, when his presence in a North Italian monastery was first announced. In the same year, his wife Gerda (a rabid Nazi and daughter of Supreme Party Judge, Walter Buch) died of cancer in South Tyrol, though his ten children survived the war. It was then alleged that Bormann had escaped (like other loyal Nazis) via Rome to South America. Rumoured to have settled in Argentina where he was living secretly as a millionaire, allegedly spotted in Brazil and also in Chile, Bormann's traces proved as elusive as the anonymity in which he first rose to power.

However, the ultimate fate of Bormann is of only secondary importance.

Really! Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie. Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi. Seems Mr. Farago certainly had a flair for the dramatic, hardly a credible source to be quoting from and certainly not an author to be recommending to readers as an 'eye opener' if they wixh to discover more about Patton eh Von Rom[:-]

Hi [:)]

If Bormann is/was truly dead - fine.

I am concerned about the evidence proving his death.

Dr. Blaschke, the dentist you are referring to, did not have a good relationship with Bormann and had no reason to lie.

That dentist saw Bormann's dental records 30 years previously to his examination of that body. And on that MEMORY he made a decision. [8|]

That truly has to be the greatest memory recollection in history!

And you buy that?

Professor Sognnaes, the forensic scientist who carried out the investigation in 1972, used other methods to confirm the identity of skull, confirming it was that of Bormann.

He did an examination of a skull which he said was Bormann's.

However, Simon Wiesenthal was also present at the Frankfurt press display and expressed doubt that the skull he saw was that of Bormann. “There seemed to be a slight difference in the skull structure from that of Bormann,” he mused.

The London Daily Express termed the Frankfurt press con­ference by the Brandt government a whitewash, and said it was Bormann's passport to freedom in perpetuity, forever freeing him from harassment or capture. The European press held that a deal was made between representatives of the Bormann NSDAP in exile in South America and the government of the Federal Republic of Germany. Their speculation was that by so doing the government sought to free itself from the unending nagging pressure of continuing to search for Bormann.

But the mystery remains: Did Bormann die in Berlin? Or did he escape?

I think it would a very interesting thing to research for anyone who is truly interested.

Farago himself claimed to have tracked down Bormann in Novemember 1972 to Buenos Aires but it turned out that he had not corroborated the story and that the photos he claimed were of Bormann bore only a passing resemblence to the 'missing' former top Nazi.

Yes, he did track down Bormann.

And no one has proved him wrong.

In fact, later investigators, doing their own independent research, found a great deal that corroborated Farago's findings.

[EricGuitarJames]

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then[X(] And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then[X(] And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!

Hmm, I find it odd that you are determined to believe that Bormann died in Berlin, and that you believe those reports.

Farago has impecable credentials. Yet, you probably have not read a single thing he has written.


Here are a couple more opinions:

"That damn Martin made it safely out of Germany."

Walter Buch, top Nazi judge and Martin Bormann's father-in-law, upon his deathbed (Paul Manning, Martin Bormann: Nazi In Exile, p. 45)


"Of course [Bormann escaped]. He is a natural survivor."

Colonel General Alfred Jodl, At the signing of the European capitulation when asked if Martin Bormann made it safely out of Berlin (Paul Manning, Martin Bormann: Nazi In Exile, p. 185)

[EricGuitarJames]

I believe those reports because they are the only ones that fit the facts. Everything else is pure speculation.

Incidentally, if you are interested in whether Bormann escaped and how his skull 'turned up' in Berlin you might like to read 'Doppelgangers: The Truth About the Bodies in the Berlin Bunker' by Hugh Thomas. He has some interesting ideas and the book is a damn good read, if a little 'left field'[;)]

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I believe those reports because they are the only ones that fit the facts. Everything else is pure speculation.

Incidentally, if you are interested in whether Bormann escaped and how his skull 'turned up' in Berlin you might like to read 'Doppelgangers: The Truth About the Bodies in the Berlin Bunker' by Hugh Thomas. He has some interesting ideas and the book is a damn good read, if a little 'left field'[;)]

Those reports may be true; they may not be true.

I do question them, though, as do many other people who have far more expertise in these matters than I do.

I question the credibility of a dentist who says he can tell the dentures of a man, the records for whom, he saw 30 years previous to his investigation of those same dentures.

It is simply too unbelievable. It lacks all credibility.

On the other hand, it is well known and well documented, that thousands of Nazis escaped via ODESSA and the Vatican Ratlines to South America, along with billions in funds. . .

If I find credible evidence that Bormann died in Berlin, then I will believe it.

Until then, I think I'll do more reading on the subject.

Here is what Farago writes on the subject:

ARGENTINA

Martin Bormann arrived in Argentina on a Monday morning, May 17, 1948, aboard the steamer Giovanna C, out of Genoa, Italy. Wearing what resembled the garb of a Jesuit, he entered Argentina on a Vatican passport identifying him as a Reverend Juan Gomez.

MARTIN BORMANN, former Reichleiter, head of the nazi Party chancery and secretary of the Führer, really survived World War II and managed to escape to Argentina in 1948, with the help of the Perón regime.

When I was in contact with him in February 1973, he had just moved from Chile to southern Bolivia. A very sick man, he was cared for by four German nursing sisters of the Redemptorist Order in their convent near Tupiza, a remote region of Potosí Province in the Andes.

Until recently, Bormann was in Argentina, again enjoying the hospitality and protection of the man he called his "great benefactor," the late President Juan Domingo Perón. He was living on a secluded estate of friends just north of the General Paz Speedway, overlooking the Rio de la Plata. He was as well and as comfortable as a man of his age could be - he celebrated his 74th birthday on June 17. 1974.

- Ladislas Farago 1974

[EricGuitarJames]

I'd point out that Farago, in true 'chequebook journalism' style, was openly paying people for their stories. His books may be interesting but I find it hard to take him seriously.

[IronDuke_slith]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then[X(] And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!

What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...

The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.

Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?

Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke

[EricGuitarJames]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke

It's already been done! It's been at least twenty years since I read the novel so I can't tell you either what it was called or who it was by. Good read though[:)]

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'd point out that Farago, in true 'chequebook journalism' style, was openly paying people for their stories. His books may be interesting but I find it hard to take him seriously.

You don't take Farago seriously (even though you have not read a single word of his), and yet, you will believe a dentist who claims to be able to identify dentures from records he saw 30 years ago [8|]

Ripley's Believe It or Not would be interested in that dentist [8|]

And your flippant attitude to Farago is very unfair. See his credentials below.

As to using his cheguebook:

Corruption and bribery is a way of life in some countries, especially in Argentina in the 1970s. Farago travelled to Argentina and bribed certain officials so that he could see several classified documents relating to Bormann. To verify these documents, he had a lawyer from the States as well as several Argentinian lawyers present to verify the authenticity of what was being shown to him.

Farago has a great deal of credibility, and he knows how to conduct investigations. He worked in espionage and intelligence in WWII for the US Navy.


Ladislas Farago's Credentials:

Mr. Farago is very qualified to write books on military history and intelligence.

He is internationally known as a writer, military historian, biographer, and as an expert in espionage and intelligence.

He served in WWII as Chief of Research and Planning, Special Warfare Branch, Chief of Naval Operations, U.S. Navy, where he did work in espionage and intelligence.

He is the author of 18 books on intelligence and military history, and has edited Corps Diplomatique and United Nations World.

He wrote The War of Wits which is a classic of military and political intelligence.

He also wrote The Tenth Fleet which has been heralded as the classic study of US anti-submarine action in WWII.

He also authored a number of works which are still classified, such as History of Propaganda in World War II and Morale and Its Maintenance in the German Army.

Both his books on Patton: Patton: Ordeal and Triumph (which took 12 years to research and write) as well as The Last Days of Patton were made into movies. And both books have stood the test of time for their content.

The screenplay for the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! was written by Ladislas Farago, Larry Forrester, Ryuzo Kikushima, and Hideo Oguni.

[EricGuitarJames]

I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973[:D]

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

So the sainted Wiesenthal is a forensic scientist too then[X(] And as for the London Daily Express, don't make me laugh!

What's making me smile, is that it seems Farago writes fiction about NAZIs on the side, if this Bormann stuff is anything to go by. Reams of material in the Patton thread were flung headlong at Mr Whiting for this very reason. Oh, the irony of it all...

The Bormann thing illustrates how conspiracy theory develops. There was no body which means that all sorts of fantasy becomes possible. Beevor gives quite a concise account of the escape attempts. He states Axmann split off from Bormann and Stumpfegger but was forced to retrace his steps, and came across the two bodies. Ian Kershaw states they committed suicide, stating they were found in 1972 and that dental and pathological examination proved who they were almost beyond doubt. Since I'm not aware of anyone tracing Stumpfegger after the war, either, and we have an eye witness who placed the bodies at the spot they were found, I think it's pretty conclusive.

Blaschke was Hitler's dentist and I don't have a problem with his memory. I suspect he wouldn't have had thousands of patients. He'd have had Hitler (and possibly) a select list of leading NAZIs (was he Bormann's dentist, or did he merely claim to see the records?). I think he looked after Eva Braun's teeth. If he'd had thousands of patients, then fair enough, but to have just a handful, doesn't give me problems if a qualified dentist is recognising them again years later. I don't take Wiesenthal's opinion as evidence. Unless he can be shopwn to have examined it closely and been a qualified forensic scientist or anthropologist or whatever, then I don't buy it. How can we?

Robin Cross relates that the bodies were found with glass remains in their mouth, apparently the remains of cyanide capsules. I think this confirms it if true as when you add it to everything else, the identification seems pretty solid.

All in all, I think the Bormann thing is just a good story. I think I'll write to Mr Whiting and suggest he writes his next novel about Bormann, detailing how he persuaded a lookalike of similiar height (with similiar looking teeth to boot) to commit suicide in his stead before escaping a City full of Russians, evading capture by the Allies and boarding the Reich's last loyal U-Boat to South America together with the looted gold bullion from around Europe.
Regards,
IronDuke

Heheh

Yup nothing like critical reading, eh, ID? [;)]

You read a brief snippet from a website, and you swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. . .

You, too, believe that a dentist can identify 30 year old dentures from records he saw 30 years ago FROM MEMORY. [8|]

Man, you guys are a salesman's dream come true. . .

BTW, I have a bridge I want to sell you. . .

I am amazed at what you will swallow when it suits your purpose.

When I was a child I believed in the Tooth Fairy - but then I wised up. . .

Did any of you ever stop to think that the West German Gov't rushed this "identification" to close the book on Bormann? That they would accept anything to sweep it under the carpet? Especially, if Bormann's cronies living in exile and in Germany placed pressure on key officials to close the case?

Please tell me you aren't this naive. . .

[Von Rom]

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

I'm quite aware of Farago's work thank you very much. I'm sure, like Charles Whiting, he has excellent credentials for writing history, .........and film screenplays, ........and books on conspiracy theories. Strange though that an eminent historian like AJP Taylor had never heard of him, even in 1973[:D]

Ya, know I thought we were going to able to have a decent discussion about this issue.

When will I ever learn [8|]

And you wonder why I have ignored posts in the past.

So please don't let the facts or common sense stand in the way of what you believe. . .

Stick your head back into the sand and go back to reading Whiting. . .