AI for MWiF - USSR

[composer99]

In my mind, the biggest problem with an Allied Danish gambit is that the Germans usually beat them to the punch, almost without exception.
 
After that, in principle the Danish gambit is a reasonable idea, even with the territory not under CW control being a no-fly zone for CW units.
 
However, you have to be very careful about letting the Germans break the pact at will. Obviously you would not do it if you were trying to stuff the border. Also, be sure not to do it if the Germans knock France over early. If they are going for a Sealion (and have spent the requisite build points on Marines and especially TRS) or are busy in Spain, it might be worth a shot, since they will be depending on your resources to fuel their war economy and will not want to break the pact under those circumstances.
 
I think it's worth doing, but the chance of being able to do it is very low.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: cockney
having a think about what the USSR ai should do.
1 historical attack eastern Poland and the balticks.
2 demand Finnish territories, if denied attack Finnland (winter war)
3 demand Moldova
4 attack Bulgaria
5 defend the Motherland with fighting withdrawals untill stong enough to counter attack.
ai should be able to determine at what stages to do each of these depending on the run of play.

Imho, not all of these have high priority. I would say (most of the below have probably been discussed earlier):
- eastern Poland and the Baltics should always be claimed (unless some especially cunning plan is being carried out)
- Bessarabia (sp?): often: setup are decent force near the Romanian border and claim early, while Germany doesn't have access and is occupied elsewhere. If not playing with the oil-rule Germany may be less reluctant to deny the claim.
- Finnish Borderlands: maybe half the time (?): need a strong force. Germany doesn't have to worry about losing the oil here, so not uncommon that they deny the claim. If German AMPH or TRS removed (e.g. by CW surprise port attack) reinforcements/peace keepers may have a hard time getting there. Otoh, if Germany has invaded Norway, Finland should be left alone by the USSR.
- Siberia: watch out for an Japanese attack - if they deploy in Manchuria rather than in China, it is probably on the way. Otoh, if Japan is going for China, it can often be worth it to a USSR DoW. However, that requires: 1) a strong force to allow for quick advance before Japan can build strong lines in good defense-terrain, and thus 2) should not be done while units are away to do stuff in Rumania, Finland or Persia). Also, 3) it is critical that the war can be ended fairly quickly (no later than fall '40, unless one is sure that the German player is not going for a '41 Barbarossa).
Such a war can buy USSR resources and a free back as long as a USSR-Japan peace treaty is in effect. Also, it can significantly take pressure off China, reduce Japanese production and kill Japanese units. Downside is, that the reverse can also come true, and if facing a '41 Barbarossa USSR can't afford many losses.
- Persia: if things are quiet in the East, Persia can be taken without to much trouble. Must be done so the Japanese don't get the oil, though, as mentioned in earlier posts.
- minor countries in Eastern Europe (e.g. Bulgaria): unless part of some unusual scheme: keep hands off them - much to easy for Germany to send peace keepers and thus to get USSR entangled in some unimportant fighting which won't give much benefit anyway.

[npilgaard]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
Denmark gambit, is it worth it?
(...)
What do you think?

To me it seems like these rules changes have been made specifically to stop 'gamey' strategies like the Denmark Gambit, and thus the disadvantages are now so great that it is not worth it. In special circumstances perhaps, but not in general.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Peter has been doing work on the data files for setting up the Finnish units. Patrice has been kind enough to create screen shots of Peter's setups. None of these show any USSR units, but this first set is if there is a threat of teh USSR invading from the Baltic Sea.

Here is the data file the AIO will read, store and execute:
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1939
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 HQI, (36,49) Forest hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (35,50) Swamp hex
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki


IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki
=============
Here is what that translates to on the map.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here is if the same defense against an attack that takes place in 1940.
==============
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1940
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 MOT, (36,52) Forest hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 HQI, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki


IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki
==============

[Shannon V. OKeets]

A third version for 1941.
================
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1941
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 MOT, (36,52) Forest hex
1 HQI, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri
===============

[Shannon V. OKeets]

There are two variants for 1942. Here's the first (same data file).
==============
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1942
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 MECH, (36,52) Forest hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 MOT, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 HQI, (35,50) Swamp hex OR (36,49) Forest hex
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri
================

[lomyrin]

What - no unit in Petsamo ?
 
Lars

[Shannon V. OKeets]

And here is the variation on the previous post.
==========
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1942
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 MECH, (36,52) Forest hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 MOT, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 HQI, (35,50) Swamp hex OR (36,49) Forest hex
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri
=============

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
What - no unit in Petsamo ?
Lars

Some setups have a unit in Petsamo, but this unit is never shown on the screenshots, as I only took the southern part. However, you can see in the texts that some setups have units in Petsamo.

If that was me, I think that there would always be a unit in Petsame.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

6th and last in series.

Patrice thought you might want to have this information too.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

A third version for 1941.
================
[Plan Invasion defence]
ONLY IF OptRule.SCSTransport OR (NOT OptRule.AmphibiousRules) THEN Invasion Defence

[Forces]

1941
1 INF (5-4), (37,47) Clear hex
1 INF (6-3) wp, (36,52) Forest hex
1 MOT, (36,52) Forest hex
1 HQI, Viipuri Forest hex, minor port
1 TAC, (36,48) Forest hex
1 FTR, (36,50) Clear hex
1 CA Vaasa OR 1 CA Helsinki
1 CP Turku or 1 CP Hango
2 CP Vaasa or 1 CP Helsinki

IF OptRule.Divisions
1 INF DIV, Vaasa OR 1 INF DIV, Helsinki OR 1 INF DIV, Petsamo
1 INF DIV, Viipuri
===============

What about a Soviet attack north of Lake Ladoga?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

In all of these, Finland is assumed to still hold the Finnish Borderlands. The sequence is: the USSR claims/demands the Finnish Borderlands, Germany refuses to grant the claim, and the USSR declares war on Finland. How does the AIO set up the Finnish units?

So, the USSR would be starting pretty far back to go around Lake Ladoga.
--------------------------
What I am looking for is a critique of the setup, so don't be shy. I have given this zero thought myself and won't really have the time in the near future. I'll let you duke it out amongst yourselves.

I expect we might need some more conditions in the data set, depending on the placement of the USSR units. For these 5 screenshots, the only assumption about the USSR units is that "they might invade from the Baltic Sea".

I have several more sets already prepared by Peter and Patrice for other threats (e.g., paradrop). I'll probably do one set a day for the next few days.

This is just for setting up Finland! But I want to work out the kinks in the process of creating data sets that handle different situations.

My main goal is to get the data format solid so it can be used for all the different possibilities. If we can do this for Finland, then we'll be 90% done for all setups.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
What about a Soviet attack north of Lake Ladoga?

IIUC, these setups are only against a threat of invasion from the sea (with SCS option on OR AMPH option off).

[wosung]

Any danger of invasion from the sea of the hex with the Fokker D XXI in it?

Regards

[peskpesk]

[font="times new roman"]The notional unit has 1 combat factor, modified by:[/font]

[font="times new roman"]+1 if it is a city hex;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]+1 if the hex is in the home country of the major power that controls the hex;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]+1 if it is not stacked with a land unit, but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps/army;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]+ the shore bombardment modifier for each invading unit;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]-1 if it cannot trace a basic supply path of any length; and[/font]
[font="times new roman"]-1 if surprised (see 15.).[/font][/ul]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Some, in this case,[/font]
[font="times new roman"]+1 notional unit[/font]
[font="times new roman"]-1 if surprised[/font]
[font="times new roman"]+1 but is in the ZOC of a friendly corps[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]As always the options are important when deciding on a setup, but If we are playing with (Option 26) Amphibs and option 25(SCS Invasion): This might be a real scenario.[/font]
[font="times new roman"]So the crack USSR 2-3 INF DIV invading during fine weather from an SCS (in the highest sea box), will have a some difficulties. 60% of taking the hex without self getting killed  with 1D10 and less on the 2D10. 2 halved for invading=1. Plus 1 for shore bombardment. Plus 1 for ground support. Gives 3-1 assault (+1 due to the notional unit being automatically face-down).[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]But you are correct, maybe we should move the FTR on hex North west or give the USSR a fine GS target and stack it with the HQ.[/font]

[bredsjomagnus]

Isn´t it possible to invade Helsinki?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Any danger of invasion from the sea of the hex with the Fokker D XXI in it?

Regards

Yes, but there is a bonus to the notional unit defending the hex (empty hexes have a notional unit defending against invasion & paradrop, so invasion & paradrops rarely are automatic successes) because of the adjacent corps.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: bredsjomagnus

Isn´t it possible to invade Helsinki?

Possible, but the notional defendig the hex has 1+1 (city) +1 (zoc) combat factors, -1 if surprised.
So it is likely that it has 2 combat factors.
If the invasion is done by a division with 2 combat factors, it is a 1:2 combat.
If the invasion is done by a 6 conmbat factors corps, it is a 3:2 combat.
Anyway it is far from an automatic success.

This said, I'd personaly prefer to have a land unit there.

[bredsjomagnus]

Yes, I agree. If USSR get that major port Finland will IMHO have a huge red problem on there neck.