Modifications to MWiF China Map portion

[Shannon V. OKeets]

My comment about minimal changes was for the rest of the world map. 
 
Since we are changing China from 70 hexes to 460+, the concept of minimal was destroyed as soon as we started.  Also, China is both a major power and an area in which a tremendous amount of land combat occurred. 
 
We should do our best to get this right on 3 points: geographically, historically, and in keeping with WIF FE play balance.  There are other aspects of the conflict we can modify if the first two are in disagreement with the third.  For example, we have mentioned using roads in place of rail lines and having some cities not count against US Entry costs.

[Froonp]

In the following I have answered YES or NO in quotation of Patrice's mail. (I don't know if he already counted me, I think not, and I did change mind on some issues.)

I had already noted 90% of what you wrote here Nils, your votes, but its great you redid all of them into this post. I review all you votes and changed my Excel file accordingly.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: ullern
I just realized that the Peking - Tietsin area is much harder to attack compared to WIF FE. I want to stick with the original. There weren't any rivers there in WIF FE. So I agree with Incy on that one.

 
You say you agree with Nils, but Nils only said he had troubles finding those rivers.
Anyway, I think like you, and I think I'll remove the rivers in that area.

[Froonp]

After the tons of suggestions Incy posted, I had to digest all that, and thanks to Wosung helps with his comments, I made the modifications to the map as described in the following text :

Remark : Nothing of what I added or removed is irreversible. I can go back on any modification I did.
So do not hesitate to try to make it better.

Ningsia Area
Incy> -Ningsia (and the hex south of it?) should not be desert, but clear or forest
Wosung> You're right about Ningsia hex itself: 100 km along the Yellow river rice paddies.
About Ningsia Province in my 1988 China: a travel survival-kit: "Part of the arid northwest of China, Ninxia is probably one of the poorest regions in the country. Winters are hard and cold, with plummeting temperatures; blistering summers make irrigation necessity." (p.729)
Froonp> I made Ninxia a Clear hex (was desert). The hex SW could warrant it too nowadays, but maybe the cultivations were not as large as they are now in this place in the 40s.

Wosung> "Around Yinchuan [= Ningsia town]: About 17 km west of Yinchuan is the mountain ressort of Gunzhongku (...) The highest mountain in this range, Mt. Helena is 3556 metres high." (p.733). That probably means: a (desert?) mountain hex to the nortwest of Ningsia.
Froonp> Added a desert mountain hex NW of Ninxia. I also transformed a northern Desert Mountain hex into a desert hex as this mountain is not that long.

Tianshui Area
Incy> -Tianshui should have mountains to the southeast, maybe also an alpine hexide (instead of the southern alpine hexside). The city itself is possible a clear hex
Wosung> Right on that mountain hex to southeast, maybe even to the southwest hex. Maybe Forest?! My map say mountains with conifers.The city itself dry cultivated with mountains (1000-1500 m.) Not sure about alpin hex question.
Froonp> I agree for mountains. Tianshui is clearly in the mountains. I agree for the Alpine hexside that is already on the map, but don't really think there is an alpine hexside in the south. I added a Mountain SE (was clear) and a forest SW (was clear).

Chungking Area
Incy> -ChungKing seems to have very good natural defenses from mountain ranges, but they don't look to high. I think a mountain hexide SE of Chungking (but not to the SW)
Wosung> According to my maps the hexes south of Chongqing are 500-1000m heigh, the first one to the east (50% 500-1000m, 50% 1000-1500 m), the second one to the east 1000-1500 m) Chongqing itself is about 100-200 m heigh.
Froonp> added a mountain hex SE.

Incy> -The Yangzee should run eastwards from Chungking from the northeastern corner of the hex, not the southeastern corner. The river should run straight east for two hexes (until it hits where the Yangzee runs in the current map). The tributary from the Kweiyang area should join up just one hex east of ChungKing rather than 2 hexes. The hex two hexes east of Chungking should be mountain.
Wosung> Right about the rivers (if i've dig it). About the mountains: see above.
Froonp> Did as you described. I entirely agree.

Wuhan / Nanchang Area
Incy> -Wuhan should be one city, on the NW side of the river. The hexes to the SE and SW of Wuhan could very well be modelled as a swamps, they have many large irregular-shaped lakes and large swaths of submerged ricefields.
Wosung> Right about Wuhan. South of it there seems to be a 125 km wide net of different lakes. Either one lake, or one swamp-hex??
Froonp> NW side of the river : it is already done.
Froonp> Ricefields : I prefer not to model ricefields as swamps, because there are tracks around the ricefiels to allow movement of people & vehicules, and even if from the sky it may seem heavy with water, I think it does not deserve to be a swamp because of that.
Froonp> Hex SW transformed in swamp. The one SE I'm reluctant because there is the rail crossing it.

Incy> -The hex NE of Nanchang could also be a swamp hex.
Wosung> Lake Poyang (3583 sq km, second biggest Lake in China) should probably extend to the south.
Froonp> I extended lake Poyang to the south and to the east from its former southern tip. I warrants it, it is really big !
 
Incy> -Where to put lakes in this area is up for grabs, to put it mildly. I think lake hexides in wuhan area can be removed, except the 2 that are lake TungTing. I would add a lake on SE hexside on hex SW of Anking instead, and replace lakes with rivers
Wosung> Lake Tungting (2820 sq km) should stay. Maybe transform Lake Liangtse into swamp hex (net of lakes, rice paddies)??
Froonp> I removed the lake hexside on the Yangtzee (SE of Wuhan).
Froonp> I removed 1 lake hexside on the Han Kiang (W of Wuhan), but left one because Wuhan on the WiF FE map is "protected" by 1 lake hexside, so I prefer to leave it.

Incy> -Wuhan should have rivers on all sides (except posibly NW)
Wosung> The city is practically surrounded with Yangtze, its tributaries and lakes.
Froonp> I cannot do this on the map, due to scale. There is no room to move the river from wher they are. Anyway, on large scale maps, when you only have really big rivers lakes, Wuhan only have rivers on the south side.

Incy> -Two southernmost hexsides of Han Kiang can be removed, this river enters the Yangtzee in (western part of)Wuhan
Wosung> But it splits before.
Froonp> I agree. I deleted both the river hexsides.

Incy> -The hex NW of NanChang should not have rivers on its 3 western hexides, but should probably be mountain
Wosung> From NW to SW it's the river Kanchiang (Gangjiang). From NE to SE it's  Lake Poyang and it's tributaries. About elevation 50% flat 50% Mufu- and Jiuli-Hills (mostly 200-500 m.)
Froonp> Agreed for the mountain hex & the river hexsides. But the river coming from the southwest (Kanchiang) has to go somewhere, so I had it go into the Poyang lake, on the Nanchang NW hexside. It is like this.

Nanking / Shanghai / Hangchow Area
Incy> -The two lakes NW of Nanking should both be moved 1 hexrow east, as should the river.
Wosung> Right 
Froonp> Agreed for the lakes (one lake had to be changed in orientation because of the rail) & River. What about the forest hex ? And the resource ? I think the forest should be moved eastwards, not the resource.

Incy> The river should stop at the SE corner of Suchow hex.
Wosung> The river on the map represents the  net of 3-4 lakes, mostly not wide but mostly around 100 km long connected by channels. (This would be the more lake-ier part of the Grand Channel.) But Suchow should be to the West of it. 
Froonp> I'm not very happy of how the rivers look around Suchow now.

Incy> There should also run due east all the way to the sea from this point. The railroad should remain where it is, so it should be on the western/northern side of the rivers & lakes (there's no railroad east of the river/lakes today, but there is one to the west connecting NanKing and Suchow)
Wosung> Railroad north of Suchow should switch to the hex row east of the river.
Froonp> Agreed with Incy.

Incy> -there are 4 close mediumsize cities just NW of Shanghai that I think together warrant a city hex (called Changzhou or Wuxi ?)
Wosung> Nantong, Changshu, Wuxi, Changzhou These are today city-governement sized and administrated cities. Problem: There are literally hundreds of them today. As were in WW2. (besides Wuhsing is the only one also representated on my 1935 printed China-map, 1cm = 100miles) Where to begin?? Right now  Froonps China map contains most of the provincial cities, most of the more important treaty-ports, and a few historical important minor cities.
Froonp> I added the city of Wuhsing in the hex W of Shanghai. I like it, it makes the area more city-country like.

Incy> -Hex SW of Nanking should be swamp? (lakes, heavy with canals/submerged ricefields)
Wosung> Right, there is a lake in it. Problem with rice-fields is: If we convert all the ricefield-heavy areas in China to swamp, man that would be a rather swampy map. On the other hand: perhaps we should do it. Imperial Japanese Army didn't have bunches of heavy tanks.
Froonp> Looking at the area in Google Earth, I added a forest hex W of Hangchow, but no swamps (see remark about ricefields above).

Canton Area
Incy> -Macau should also be a city
Wosung> Agreed on that: It was the oldest European colony in China in WW2, a Portugese one. But that probably would mean additional rules. BTW it formally never was occupied by the Japanese in WW2.
Froonp> I disagree. To appear on the map, it should be a significaly big city (in the 40s) or strategicaly important city. Giving an extra japanese city port on the South China sea is a bad idea for me. If the Japanese did not control it in the WWII, I think this means it was not strategically important. So I'm against giving the Japan player an incensitive to control it. However, as the Japanese player, I would control it even if it is simply a minor port, as soon as Portugal enters the allied side. There is no reason not to do it.

Incy> -There should be a lot more broken terrain (forest or mountain) in the area west of Canton. Suggest forest W and SW of Canton, Mountain in two hexes west of these. More forest to the north of that.
Wosung> Agreed on that. Practically the whole area between Canton and Nanning should either be forest or mountain, apart from the coastal hexes.
Froonp> Added 2 Forest hexes W of Canton, and transformed the Forest W of them into a Mountain. Added 2 Forest hexes north of that (in the bend of the Pearl River).

Incy> The river that runs in direction of ChangSha should branch off one hex sooner (i,e it would also cover Cantons NW hexside). It shoud otherwise follow same path. Move the railroad to always run east of the river.
Wosung> Right.
Froonp> I agree. I'd add to your Earth observatin that Canton is attackable from 3 hexes in WiF FE, one being behind a river. Say this is equivallent as 2,5 full hexes. Now, it is attackable from 6 hexes, 3 being behind a river. This is equivallent as 4,5 full hexes. Modifying as you describe would make it attackable from 4 full hexes, which would be more than WiF FE.

Nanning Area
Incy> -hexes W, WW, and W-SW of nanning Should be forest. Hex SW of Nanning should be mountain. The river that runs west of Nanning should also have an extension north and cover the western side of Naning.
Wosung> Right.
Froonp> Are you really sure that they should be forests ? I think this is discutable between forest & mountains. I have great trouble being convincted for something else from mountains (As WiF FE map is all mountains here).
Helped myself with other maps, I agreed for the mountain hex SW, and also a forest hex W of it (instead of mountains). Otherwise, the area seem correct as it is now.

Incy> The mountain and forest hexes on the Indochina border should be swapped.
Froonp> As previously, I'm not at all convicted here. They seem correct as they are now.

Incy> The hex east of Nanning should probably be mountain and Nanning itself probably should be forest.
Wosung> Or mountain
Froonp> I prefer let Nanning as it is (mountains) and the hex east Forest.

Peking Area
Incy> -I have trouble finding any rivers that justify most of the rivers in the Peking/Paoting/Tientsin area.
Wosung> There is river Sanganhe, River hai he and the Grand Channel.
Froonp> I removed all rivers in the Peking Tientsin Paoting area.

Incy> Perhaps short rivers east and west of Tientsin are justified. NB!! I do see 2 big dams and broad white "riverlike" features in the terrain, though. Have the rivers in the area disappeared? (agriculture, etc?)
Froonp> I think there should be no rivers there.
 
Incy> -I think many of the mountains a bit west of peking should be desert mountains
Wosung> I agree with that.  This could be warranted even for the north eastern part of Himalaya, some 5-600 km north west of Lanchow.
Froonp> I added some desert mountain there, tell me if you think it needs more, or less.

Wosung> BTW : The Railway Paochi(Baoji)- Lanchow was completed in 1952 (China Traval Survival Kit, p. 738-739).
Froonp> I left the railroad interrupted in Tianshui for the moment.

Screen shots of the 3 areas to come.

[Froonp]

North portion

[Froonp]

Coast Portion.

Note for all maps : You can quickly see what changed between maps by downloading the current and the previous picture, and then quickly view the one after the over back and forth with the Windows XP viewer for example.

Edit : Posted a better image of the area (Nanchang showing)

[Froonp]

South portion
Corrected.... [:D]

[Incy]

Whoa, nice to see the feedback here 
 
In fact, so nice I'm encouraged to do.. some... more... (stop me if I go to far..)
 
-I think you might have uploaded an older version of the south, I can't see any changes?
-In the recently added central mountaiun chain, there is a gap in the center that I don't think warrants mountains (hex NE of Nanyang). In this area, there are wide stretches of farmland with a little "mountain" here and there.
-northern rivers: Whoa, that was a bit more than I envisioned, I was imagining trimming the rivers a bit  I think a shourt river on either side of Tientsin might be warranted ?
-Shijazhuang sure looks like a quite big city, it's about two hexes west of Taiyuan and SW of Paoding (it looks bigger than Paoding).
-Paoding should be wurther east. Relatively to Peking, it'¨s more south than west
-Mountains next to Peking should run southwest, not west. I suggest hex W and 2 hexes W of Peking should be mountain, maybe hex where Paoding is (was) and west of it too.
-Lake Poyang, I now agree that it should. I was tricked by the enourmous color variation it has on google earth. It is much, much larger than I thought
-Shantou (2-3 hexes on the coast east of Canton) and Dianquian (further east) seem quite large, and also look like a very good ports. Both also has a lot of heavily populated areas around it. Deserves a port (or maybe a city?). Note that the populated areas here just go a bit inland, then comes large swaths of mountains. Dianquian is actually a small island
-Kunming has a series of lakes south of it, might deserve a lake hexside
-hex between lake and resource near Sining should be clear/forest?
-3 hexes surrounded by river in the north look a bit strange. I can see why they're there, but maybe model it as swamp, or maybe have fewer river hexsides ? The easternmost hexside could be a lake.
-mountains SE of Tsinan seem to small, what about making hex NW of Suchow and hex E of Tsianan mountain (or at least forest)
-The area between Han Kiang and Yangzee seems to have way to good terrain. My suggestion:
Hex NW+W of Wuhan(east of Han Kiang): clear->Mountain
Hex west of that: clear->forest
Hex west of that: clear->mountain
Hex west of that: forest->mountain
Hex NE of that: clear ->mountain
Hex NW of that: clear -> forest (linking up to forest north of river)
-The mountain area west of the railroad between Canton and Changsha seems to have large areas of easier terrain in it.
My suggestion:
Hexes NW, SW of resource: mountain->forest
hex W of resource: mountain clear/forest (rugged but better than neighbouring "hills")
Hexes W & SW of Changsha: clear->forest (could be mountains too but not rugged enough)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Patrice,
 
I looked at all the changes you made in accordance with recommendations from Incy and Wosung.  In particular, I compared the new China map with the WIF FE map.  I must say, I like all your decisions.  WIF FE has only 2 swamp hexes in all of Southeast Asia: 1 in the Mekong Delta and 1 in Calcutta (if you stretch the point and count that as part of Southeast Asia).  However, railroads through swamps occur frequently in WIF FE (Pripet marshes in USSR for example).
 
There are undoubtedly more revisions impending from the various collaborators, but the corrections seem to be getting more and more fine grained.

[Incy]

Oh, and two more:
-I think Kunming should be placed one hex SW, it's to close to Chungking and Kweiang
-Kweiyang area has way to nice terrain, there isn't muh terrain in the area that should be better than forest. Kweiyang itself should at least be forest and maybe mountain. The hex E and W  of it should be mountain.  The hex SE probably also. Hex SW is closer to forest. Hex NE could qualify as clear, the hex east of that is forest at best.2 hexes E of Kweiyang is forest (or mountain). 

[Ullern]

[8|] I really like the most recently posted maps.

Agree with Incy on the area north of Nanyang is relativly flat and open, but is still much higher than the areas further north and south. What about forest instead of mountain?
I think removing the rivers made perfect sense...

Nils

[wosung]

For adding/choosing (more) cities:

I found the following time-near incomplete population statistics ww2 Transcription (modern pinyin transcription):

Manchuria:
Aigun 38k
Harbin 330k
Hunchun 39k
Antung 91k
Dairen (Port Arthur) 282k
Newchwang 106k
Hsingan 920k
Hsinking 126k
Harbin553

Hopei Province (North China map)
Tiantsin 1,38 Mill.   on Map

Shantung Province (Central China map)
Chefoo (Qufu) 131k
Tsingtao (Qingdao) 190k    on map
Weihaiwei (Weihaiwei) 390k

Szchwan (Sichuan) (South China Map)
Chungking (Chongqing) 635k    on map
Wansien (Wanxian) 201k

Hunan Province (Central/South China Map)
Changsha 606k     on map


Hupeh Province (Hubei) (Central China Map)
Ichang (Yichang) 107k
Shasi (Shaxi) 113k
Hankow (Wuhan) 777k   on map

Kiangsi (Jiangxi) Province (South China Map)
Kiukiang (Jiujiang) 80k

Anhwei Province (Anhui) (Central China Map)
Wuhu 135k

Kiangsu Province (Jiangsu) (Central China Map)
Nanking (Nanjing) 633k   on map
Chinkiang (Jinjiang) 199k
Shanghai 3,26 Mill.         on map
Soochow (the one on Patrice's map) 260k   on map

Chekiang Province (Zhejiang) (Central China Map)
Hangchow (Hangzhou) 506k      on map
Ningpo (Ningbo) 218k
Wenchow (Wenzhou) 631k

Fukien Province (Fujian) (South China Map)
Foochow (Fuzhou) 322k


Kwangtung Province (Guangdong) (South China map)
Amoy (Xiamen) 234k
Swatow (Shantou) 178k
Canton (Guangzhou) 861k      on map

KwangsiProvince (Guangxi) (South China map)
Wuchow (Wuzhou) 90k
Nanning 68k         on map

Yunnan Provinvce (South China map)
Kunming 193k      on map

ommited Nothern Provinces: Shansi, Shensi Kansu Honan, Southern Province: Kweichow.

Sources:
Maritime Customs estimate of Chinese Population of the several Ports (1931)
Handbook of Information on Manchukuo (1932)
both cited in: H.G.W. Woodhead (ed.), The China Year Book 1934, Shanghai 1935, p.3.

Please Note that,

1. Population Statistics of China then were  guestimates.

"No Census of the entire Chinese  population has ever been taken and consequently estimates and reports on the total Chinese population have varied greatly."
Chinese Minstry of Information (ed.), China Handbook 1937-1944, Chungking 1944, p.2.

2. but sinoforeign managed Maritime Customs probably had the better guestimates.

3. ports included river ports, that means: the economically, infratructurally most important, biggest, cities.

4. we probably won't get data nearer to  WW 2.

5. the biggest change from 1931/32 onwards to WW2 occured in 1937/38, at the beginning of the sino-japanese war: some 10 Mill. refugees from east to west

6. the guestimates for Chinese losses in 1937-45 are about 25 Mill. deads and 95 Mill. refugees, in that grim toll second only to Russia.

regards

Maybe I'll also get some population data for the non-treaty-port cities, that means the cities with less foreign communities in the hinterland.


 

[Froonp]

Thanks for that, that's great, I added it into my Excel list of Chinese cities & terrain features.
I completely missed any 30s or 40s population number.

ORIGINAL: wosung
Manchuria:
Aigun 38k
Harbin 330k
Hunchun 39k
Antung 91k
Dairen (Port Arthur) 282k
Newchwang 106k
Hsingan 920k
Hsinking 126k
Harbin553

There are 2 Harbin here, which one is on which year ?

[wosung]

Sorry, I was tired.

Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Hsinking and Harbin are special municipalities, probably with added hinterland.

For the transkriptions:
WW 2 (new Pinyin)
Hsingan (Xingan)
Harbin (Ha'erbin)
Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)
Newchwang (Niuzhuang)
Hunchun (Hunchun)

Didn't find Antung right now.

Please note that beside of all these treaty ports (also in China proper) there were other big cities (like the 2 left-out Provincial capitals Kaifeng and Wuchang).

Regards
)

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.
Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Thanks, and no worries.

Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)

I thought that Changchun (on the WiF FE map) was Hsinking (on the WWII maps I have). Am I wrong ?
And I thought that Shenyang (modern name) was Mukden (WWII name). Am I wrong ?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.

Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Hsinking and Harbin are special municipalities, probably with added hinterland.

For the transkriptions:
WW 2 (new Pinyin)
Hsingan (Xingan)
Harbin (Ha'erbin)
Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)
Newchwang (Niuzhuang)
Hunchun (Hunchun)

Didn't find Antung right now.

Please note that beside of all these treaty ports (also in China proper) there were other big cities (like the 2 left-out Provincial capitals Kaifeng and Wuchang).

Regards)

Population numbers are always suspect. A couple of examples from the US:

- I lived in Philadelphia for 26 years and its population stops at the Delaware river, which divides it from New Jersey. Many people in New Jersey live less than 3 miles from the center of the city and drive across the bridge to work every day, or to eat, shop, or be entertained. Yet they are never counted as part of the Philly population.

- Los Angeles wanted to be known as a big city so it incorporated all the surrounding districts into the city proper and now has a large population and covers a large geographical area.

So, what defines a city? All of this should be thrown into the mix of different dates for the information, the different sources, and the political points of view of the authors. I wouldn't view the numbers as an absolute guide for inclusion/exclusion from the map.

[Froonp]

So, what defines a city? All of this should be thrown into the mix of different dates for the information, the different sources, and the political points of view of the authors. I wouldn't view the numbers as an absolute guide for inclusion/exclusion from the map.

Not an absolute guide, but a useful one anyway.

[Froonp]

So, what defines a city? All of this should be thrown into the mix of different dates for the information, the different sources, and the political points of view of the authors. I wouldn't view the numbers as an absolute guide for inclusion/exclusion from the map.

By the way, I do not intend to add all cities that Wosung listed, only because their population number is over the 100k mark.
I have them listed in my Excel file, as a reserve for if there is a need of an extra city somewhere in the future.

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.
Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Thanks, and no worries.

Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)

I thought that Changchun (on the WiF FE map) was Hsinking (on the WWII maps I have). Am I wrong ?
And I thought that Shenyang (modern name) was Mukden (WWII name). Am I wrong ?

Yep, You're right on that. I switched the names, while posting.
Sorry again![:D]

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.

Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Hsinking and Harbin are special municipalities, probably with added hinterland.

For the transkriptions:
WW 2 (new Pinyin)
Hsingan (Xingan)
Harbin (Ha'erbin)
Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)
Newchwang (Niuzhuang)
Hunchun (Hunchun)

Didn't find Antung right now.

Please note that beside of all these treaty ports (also in China proper) there were other big cities (like the 2 left-out Provincial capitals Kaifeng and Wuchang).

Regards)

Population numbers are always suspect. A couple of examples from the US:

- I lived in Philadelphia for 26 years and its population stops at the Delaware river, which divides it from New Jersey. Many people in New Jersey live less than 3 miles from the center of the city and drive across the bridge to work every day, or to eat, shop, or be entertained. Yet they are never counted as part of the Philly population.

- Los Angeles wanted to be known as a big city so it incorporated all the surrounding districts into the city proper and now has a large population and covers a large geographical area.

So, what defines a city? All of this should be thrown into the mix of different dates for the information, the different sources, and the political points of view of the authors. I wouldn't view the numbers as an absolute guide for inclusion/exclusion from the map.

Right. But population is at least a factor. Therefore I posted the available raw statistics as information pool. I didn't say: There should be a city-hex there and there on the MWIF map. I like our approach best: decision by discussion.

And: Even incorporated suburbs add to densely city hexes.