Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

3. The US bombing campaign continues to strike ball bearing plants rather than giving up just as a crisis started to develop in German industry. Or, alternatively, the US starts pounding infrastructure like railroads and dams early in the campaign.

Likewise the Luftwaffe could have not made the mistake of dumping some bombs on London and kept them on the aircraft factories and airfields in Britain.

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

ORIGINAL: SamCole

I do not understand. You have 23000 resources/day, why can't you sustain 23000 HI per day? I was under the understanding that it took 1 resource and 1 oil for each HI to produce 1 supply, 1 fuel, and 1 HI point. [&:]

And I do not understand your complaint. From what you posted it seems to me that you have plenty of oil and resources. Maybe you need to move some?

Two points:

-According to the manual, each HI spends 3 oil and 2 resources/day
-Each manpower spends 10 resources/day
-See el cid again topic "Houston, we have an economic trouble" in the Scenario editor topic

Yikes, if this is true then all my economic planning is way off. My gut feeling from what I have seen is that 1oil and 1 res produce 1 supply and 1 HI. I will be interested to see what testing has shown.

[pauk]

as far as i know 1 oil is and one 1 resource is spent for creating 1 HI. Not having problems with my industry - the problem is supply.

Sam, resources aren't required only for HI, manpower also uses resources. Experts for war industry said that app surpluse of 5K resources output will be enough to not drain your resources.....

[Bombur]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Its been a long time since I tested all this (I have never actually played a game as the Japanese). It looks like I am going to have to test it again as I don't trust the manual. Just when I was about to release CHS 2.08 as well... *sigh*

No need to test. I made a test and you are right. I´m wrong, and also the manual.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Bombur

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Its been a long time since I tested all this (I have never actually played a game as the Japanese). It looks like I am going to have to test it again as I don't trust the manual. Just when I was about to release CHS 2.08 as well... *sigh*

No need to test. I made a test and you are right. I´m wrong, and also the manual.

Thanks Bombur! I also ran a very quick test of my own. If you were correct it would have thrown the entire CHS economic setup "out the door". Thus my interest in getting to the bottom of it.

Andrew

[SamCole]

ORIGINAL: pauk

as far as i know 1 oil is and one 1 resource is spent for creating 1 HI. Not having problems with my industry - the problem is supply.

Sam, resources aren't required only for HI, manpower also uses resources. Experts for war industry said that app surpluse of 5K resources output will be enough to not drain your resources.....

I understand about the manpower, but Bombur stated that it took 2 resource to support the HI( since corrected by him ).

[AmiralLaurent]

The Japanese economy is limited by oil and resources... In the normal SRA limits, the limiting factor are the resources (Japan has not enough to sustain manpower and as much HI centers as he has oil).

At start Japan has 781 manpower, 750 oil and 12120 resources (including Indochina, Formosa, Thailand, China and Kwantung).
Daily production: 4500 oil and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

The following SRA area have the following centers:
Burma-Malya: 100 oil, 1350 resources, 5 manpower
DEI: 1900 oil, 4920 ressources, 14 manpower
PI: 550 resources, 1 manpower
Hong Kong: 30 resources, 5 manpower
Total: 2000 oil, 6850 resources

Total with the starting Japanese centers: 2750 oil, 18970 resources, 806 manpower

Daily production: 16500 oil, 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources (if resource centers are not damaged)

Now in the case you have China (less Chungking) and India, you have the following extra production:
China: 150 oil, 1920 resources, 52 manpower
India: 75 oil, 3840 resources, 154 manpower

Now the total of the Empire is: 2975 oil, 24730 resources, 1012 manpower

Daily production: 17850 oil, 30912 - 10120 = 20792 resources (if resource centers are not damaged)

No more resource problem, but the new limit is not so high

So Japan can support (without reducing strategic reserves):
_ 4500 HI centers at start
_ 15400 HI centers with "historical conquest", and no damage
_ 17850 HI centers with PzB (or Sneer vs Raverdave) empire

And has 13400 at start, so increase of capacity is only of 33%. If all Asia is conquered. And no damage has been suffered, or at least all had been repaired.

So nothing dramatic IMOO... the only gamey aspect I saw is the ability of the Japanese player to stop immedialty all ships for building aircraft for example ... As I said above, all those decisions could have been made, but IMOO should be valued political points.

Now the utilisation of HI:
at start: 2000 yards = 6000 points, 550 armament/vehicle = 3300 points, 4100 points remaining for AC and expansion

Common figures later in the war will be 2200 yard = 6600 points, 700 armament/vehicle = 4200 points, total 10800 points, leaving in PzB case about 7000 points for AC.... almost 200 single engine AC per day. Counting level bombers, that should be 5000 AC per month, or 60 000 per year... but that counts research.

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

So two options: historical Japan never could use all his conquests... probably correct, as all centers in Burma and those in Kendari-Amboina-Sorong area are hardly usable... These areas have 200 oil and 1280 resources, let's say they may be used at 50% and that is 600 Hi points lost daily, about 4-500 AC a month.

Historical Japan then probably increased shipyards and armament factory more than we do... Probably because the needs were more important than for us (and they didn't stop Shinano...).

If someone with an Allied game in 1944 can count the total Allied output (both on board and outside it), then we should compare it with the above numbers...

[Andy Mac]

Nice Analysis I can do it tonight after work the only question is do you want all aircraft or just 1st and 2nd line. e.g ignore P36, Buffalo's etc or should I split it into categories and include them ?
 
i.e. category 1 being aircraft I have at least 1 sqn of or will get in next few months so actual operational aircraft?
 
 

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Nice Analysis I can do it tonight after work the only question is do you want all aircraft or just 1st and 2nd line. e.g ignore P36, Buffalo's etc or should I split it into categories and include them ?

i.e. category 1 being aircraft I have at least 1 sqn of or will get in next few months so actual operational aircraft?

A full list may be useful but may be too long.... If you don't have the time, I would divide them into great category like modern / useful / outdated. Useful being planes like A-20B that have upgrade available but may be used without problems (well, with escort).

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

What are these subtractions for?

Jim

[AmiralLaurent]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
and 15150 -7810 = 7340 resources

23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

What are these subtractions for?

Jim

Sorry didn't explain

Total production = 23 847
Used by manpower center = 806 * 10 = 8060
Available for HI : 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
Sorry didn't explain

Total production = 23 847
Used by manpower center = 806 * 10 = 8060
Available for HI : 23487 - 8060 = 15427 resources

Thanks.

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent
Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

Japan produced a total of 76,000+ aircraft during the entire war, so it is far greater than a 50% production increase. Assuming only 30k for 1942 and then 45k for 1943 and 1944, and then just 20k for 1945, that's about a 100% increase in aircraft production while the allies get about 20% of what they historically had if we go by F6F production.

144 month from Jul 1944 means they'll produce 1,872 F6F's by the end of Aug 1945. 15k+ F6F's were produced historically.

Jim

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: pauk


This is not 100% historical simulation because devs started from the one premise (and that was clearly stated long time ago from officials, IIRC):

#1. Japan is allowed to do limited changes in their war industry to simulate that Japan could turn their production to the total war production

#2. Allies are already on total war production and these numbers represent that (are these numbers are 100 % correct that's another story)

My recollection is that the reason Japan is allowed to make changes is because their industry is also a target. It's hard for me to imagine that any "officials" would have stated that the Japanese had a "total war production" button that IRL they forgot to push. Although, it's possible, I guess. I wish I had seen such a comment before spending my money on the Matrix version of MOO3.

It seems pretty simple to me. IMO:

Japanese production should mirror their actual production when the Japanese player keeps it unchanged and similarly supplied. Tweaking should only provide modest improvement and there should be a downside for any change made.

US production should be equal to historical rates subject to some change depending on how things are going vs. the Japs and (abstractly) in Europe. By '44/'45 the US should pretty much have "enough" of everything. They should also get ship platforms based on RL schedules with the ability to rename them if necessary- no auto-replacements. [:-]


The Japanese are overpowered in nearly every possible way. The Allies are overpowered in some key areas as well. Damn "play balance" and get it as accurate as reasonably possible. Then set victory conditions appropriately. I have no hope for WitP ever achieving this but here's hoping for WitP 2. I'd even buy it on the first day if such a goal is at least attempted.

[Bombur]

Now with the 'historic conquests', the points available for AC production will be 5200 per day... Production of 3500-4000 AC a month, around 45 000 per year. That is 50% more that what historical Japan did.

-Yes, but this is best case scenario, in practice, it seems to be hard to capture all SRA withouth significant damage to oil and resources, and so in most likely scenario production will be about the historical levels. If the Japanese player fails to make all historical conquests, however, it won´t be able to produce even historical numbers of AC. Your best case data also fails to consider the effect of submarine warfare and strategic bombing, which, in real life, limited Japanese production. When all these variables are taken into account, then you will have pretty historical production. To keep all HI working also needs a lot of micromanagement and I doubt to what extent there is a human player able to keep Japanese industry running at 100% capacity all the time.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns



144 month from Jul 1944 means they'll produce 1,872 F6F's by the end of Aug 1945. 15k+ F6F's were produced historically.

Jim

If we're going to throw numbers out we need to throw the correct ones....

IRL Hellcat production ceased in November 45 with 12,275 being built - broken down as follows:
c.4423 F6F-3
c.7852 F6F-5 (of which 930 went to the (brits)


According to the game database we have in game:

F6F Hellcat - 144 month from 7/43 - Total through 11/45= 144x29m = 4176
Hellcat II - 50 month from 7/43 - Total through 11/45 = 50x29m = 1450
F6F-5N - 144 month from 12/43 - Total through 11/45 = 144x24m= 3456
Total in game F6F production = 9082

How many aircraft arrive with reinforcing groups if any?

Difference of roughly 3200 Hellcats. Not all Hellcats fought in the Pacific although the numbers which went to Europe did not approach 3200 to the best of my knowledge. Does anyone know how many were retained in the US for training if any?

[dtravel]

If people are going to reduce Allied production to reflect aircraft used for training and pre-deployment losses, then you need to do the same to Japanese production.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

If people are going to reduce Allied production to reflect aircraft used for training and pre-deployment losses, then you need to do the same to Japanese production.

I wasn't suggesting that ...

[mdiehl]

And if Japan is to be given the capability to expand production then Allied production should be allowed to grow at a correspondingly greater rate. The US never came close to maxxing out war production capability. By 1944 scheduled ship deliveries were being cancelled and a.c. production cut back in many areas, and rationing substantially eased.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: treespider
If we're going to throw numbers out we need to throw the correct ones....

Oops sorry got it wrong by a year, was going off memory.

ORIGINAL: treespider
IRL Hellcat production...

As soon as you explain to me how IRL Japan produced some 140,000+ aircraft I'll listen to RL discussions about allied production.

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

I don't care if we have to give the US 500,000 fantasy aircraft made up out of thin air. If Japan gets to use fantasy aircraft the allies should get them as well.

Jim

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

And if Japan is to be given the capability to expand production then Allied production should be allowed to grow at a correspondingly greater rate. The US never came close to maxxing out war production capability. By 1944 scheduled ship deliveries were being cancelled and a.c. production cut back in many areas, and rationing substantially eased.

And Admiral King was worried about the shortage of dock workers that occurred late in the war... Although the US was no doubt the most prodigous manufacturer during the war it was not the boundless cornucopia that people like to think it is.

My only intention with my post was to correct Jim's flawed analysis of F6F production in the game. Nowhere did i suggest that Japan's production figures were correct or incorrect.