Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

[ny59giants]

As I read through the various AAR that have games in '43 or beyond, it "seems" to this "armchair admiral" that the Japanese player of average to above average skills have an advantage through various factors to make it extremely difficult for an Allied player to come close to historical results. Am I off base here??
It seems the production system for the Japanese allows them to out produce the Allies in airframes.
The use of "training" them up in China gives them a big experience advantage.
The amount of airframes and pilots lost in a month puts the Allied player in a bind as they do not have the planes to overcome this loss as they are locked into a set production rate.
The Japanese player knows what the disposition of the Allied players forces are at the begining and can exploit it relatively easily.

I don't want this thread to turn into dump on the Japanese fanboys as much as what can Matrix do to help correct this "seemingly" play balance that seems to have swung the game in one direction.

I am thankful of those who have done the mods to make a more historically accurate game. Hopefully, they will get more of a game balance from their work.

Possible solutions that I see:
Can Japanese production be made more expensive to decrease the amount of production for later generation planes?
Is there any way possible to trigger excelerated Allied production except through the current WC invasion?

Just some thoughts from the sidelines. [:)]

[pauk]

ah, no, not again....

[>:][>:][>:]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

The "real" WWII in Pacific lasted until August 1945... [8D]

The WitP is meant to last until 1945/1946 (and I am sure at least some of the AARs will last that long) and not to be finished in 1942 (when most of players, sadly, give up)!

All those ARRs you mention are just very good / experienced Japanese players doing best they can - the tide will surely turn and Allies would win (but not in 1942 and not in 1943)... [;)]

Thus what you see is actually very good thing because "real" WWII was long and hard stuggle and WitP managed to emulate this very very good! [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Nemo121]

BIG question...
 
Are the scenarios you are talking about non-PDU. I would aver that they are since a little statistical analysis I did shows that with PDUs on this simply should not be a problem for the Allies so long as the Allied player is willing to field an appropriate mix of "best fighters at the front and slightly less than best for rear area protection/secondary fronts".
 
Also don't forget that while the Japanese player might be able to drain US pilot pools this is happening, in these AARs, in the context of Allied over-extension and an attempt to mount rolling operations without any major strategic pause. When this was attempted historically it also failed. Remember the VR squadrons are an operational answer to an operational problem NOT a strategic solution.
 
The Allies in the latest game to see an Allied reverse have clearly been at their culmination point since the last operation undertaken and, in pushing beyond their culmination point, have received a bloody nose. This is, I believe, entirely defensible under Clausewitzian methods. Also let us not forget that the loss of 5 IJN CVs is almost de rigeur at the time in question and raises barely a comment while the loss of a few CVEs operating with almost no CAP is grounds for remark. That single difference is very important. No, when losing a few CVEs is grounds for massive surprise in the face of a major enemy response to a rush operation then one knows that the Allied side is not too weak .
 
Still, with PDUs OFF the Japanese production in 1944 is much easier for the Allied player to cope with and there's nothing stopping Allied players from training their own planes on bypassed bases. What's good for the goose is good for the gander after all.

[mogami]

Hi, What do the scenario modders do with the Japanese RD production? If those facotires are included and allowed to change production then they should first be reduced to size 0 (You can have a size zero factory you just can't build a factory where no facotry is allowed.)

The most important question though is

Does the Japanese player what to experiance historical limitations or does he want to play the "Fantasy" Campaign?  WITP allows both types to have fun (if they can find opponents) But the fantasy players will experiance more difficulty with the game engine.

Anyone who thinks it is ok to train pilots using the bypassed base method can forget ever playing me. (If I must explain why then you'll never understand)

[RETIRED]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

The most important question though is

Does the Japanese player what to experiance historical limitations or does he want to play the "Fantasy" Campaign?  WITP allows both types to have fun (if they can find opponents) But the fantasy players will experiance more difficulty with the game engine.

Anyone who thinks it is ok to train pilots using the bypassed base method can forget ever playing me. (If I must explain why then you'll never understand)

AMEN, Mogami, Amen.

[RUPD3658]

I don't know about all this training of Japanese pilots. I don't bomb bypassed bases or even train pilots at all. They go straight to the front and are weeded out in Darwinian fashon. I doubt I could spare the supplies to keep extra squadrons training.

I have tons of planes but most of my squadrons consist of 1-2 pilots with exp in the 90s and the rest in the 40s-50s. In a recenct scrape with the AVG I outnumbered it 3:1 with Zeros but barely traded 1:1 on losses.

This in July of 42 so by 43 my squadrons will be all rookies.

The other factor is that if the Jap player expanded all his AC factories in 41-42 he will see a benefit for a year of so but according to what Mogami has said about the Jap supply situtaion in 43-44 he will sorely miss the supplies he spent expanding the factories. No use having planes if you don't have the supplies to operate them

[Jim D Burns]

Japan has always been too powerful, it’s just that not many players have reached mid to late 1944 to prove this. I think Japan’s production should be thrown out and it should receive a fixed replacement pool the way the allies get fixed replacements.

The ability to tweak their production guarantees Japan will out produce the allies in fighters for almost the entire war. Yet we still have advocates arguing to reduce allied production to historical levels without arguing the same for Japan.

PZB and Andy’s game proves beyond a doubt that allied production is far too low given the horrendously bloody nature of the game. Yes the allies are at a disadvantage because India was wiped out in that game, but Andy hasn’t been overusing his carriers because of that. He has launched the expected carrier operations any allied player would need to launch for his counter-thrusts in 1944 and is now completely out of USN pilots and Hellcats.

1 replenishment CVE uses up 8 WEEKS worth of replacement pilots for the USN. EIGHT WEEKS!!! No way any allied player is going to do well in the later game with this kind of supply drain simply created by his replenishment CVE’s. With something like 14 replenishment CVE’s that’s 112 weeks of replacement pilots, that’s over two years (52 weeks in a year) worth of replacements pilots sucked up just for the replenishment CVE’s!

This is not a fanboy rant, this is simply the numbers as they exist now. The game needs massive numbers to compensate for the massive losses. PZB and Andy’s game is simply highlighting what happens when you fail to feed the monster with enough numbers. Either fix the bloody combat or quadruple the production.

Jim

[skrewball]

About the Japanese pilot training...
 
This game is about "WHAT WOULD YOU DO" if you were in command. I can tell you that if I was in command of the Japanese, I would have implemented a strict training regime. Of course this isn't modelled propery in game, so you use the base attacks. Why would you want to hold on to the "historic" method of play? Historically, the Japanese got their asses handed to them without much material loss to the Allies (towards the end of the war). What fun is that?
 
I believe the allies should have some sort of production control. However, there should be some random negative modifier depending on the war in Europe.

[bradfordkay]

There is nothing wrong with training pilots. There is someting wrong with using bypassed, empty bases as targets to artificially inflate the experience recieved by an air unit. This is what Russ is talking about.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Japan has always been too powerful, it’s just that not many players have reached mid to late 1944 to prove this.

greetings, Jim.

You may, of course, put in that way: Why is that many games never reached mid to late 1944?
I doubt that all games ended earlier because Japan players won....

PZB and Andy’s game proves beyond a doubt that allied production is far too low given the horrendously bloody nature of the game. Yes the allies are at a disadvantage because India was wiped out in that game, but Andy hasn’t been overusing his carriers because of that. He has launched the expected carrier operations any allied player would need to launch for his counter-thrusts in 1944 and is now completely out of USN pilots and Hellcats.

You said it well - India is out of the game. But as i see it, Andy still managing to advance faster than historical despite all advantage Japan have (as some of them says). Hey, Allies didn't defeat Japan before 1945 on two theatres, in the mentioned game they doing better than historical on just one theatre without Brits!

This is not a fanboy rant, this is simply the numbers as they exist now.

this is not a fanboy anwser, this are simply facts. Like the fact that 300 crack (80exp pilots) Zekes in shot down in just one battle.

As i said numerous times before, just changing one thing because we are under impression of certain[;)] AAR would totally unbalance A2A combat. Not that is now balanced, but i refuse to see A2A combat even more unbalanced.

[FeurerKrieg]

I have to agree with Nemo -

In PzB AAR, in 44 (not 45), Japan looses 5 fleet carriers in one day and someone asks "is japan too powerful" [X(][&:]

I just have to scratch my head. The AAR in question, japan has taken over half the world. If Japan IRL had taken over India and Burma and was receiving no pressure from the west, then shouldn't they have pretty decent production of airframes and training schools? Shouldn't the US Navy have a darn hard time?

Now, I will grant you, India wouldn't be taken over in real life but that is another story.

[PzB74]

Making A2A battles less bloody - aka Niks mod - and not playing with PDU turned ON - will be my preferences for future games.

As long as battles like this is the norm, it's simply a MUST to produce a lot of ac.... I would gladly see a more moderate production model.
But again, if you put a Japanese 'Speer' in command of production at the beginning of the war and secured vast amount of raw materials,
shouldn't it then be possible to quadruple the production of the most important ac?

Day Air attack on TF at 38,57

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 301

Allied aircraft
F6F Hellcat x 144
F4U-1D Corsair x 26
Corsair IV x 7
SB2C Helldiver x 196
TBM Avenger x 149
SOC-3 Seagull x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 219 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F Hellcat: 82 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 15 destroyed
Corsair IV: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
SB2C Helldiver: 16 destroyed, 25 damaged
TBM Avenger: 20 destroyed, 39 damaged
SOC-3 Seagull: 1 damaged

As it is neither side is allowed to order the production of new ships - even though the game moves into 1946 and the yards are empty.
So lots and lots of work for the modders (and Matrix if they want to?).

In my and Andy's game we're both trying to counter game limitations the best way we can. I must admit that I don't wish to re-create history,
that's not interesting...but some things are simply put in our hands. Each side got several small, medium and BIG problems they have to find
a way around to make the game enjoyable and playable. Sometimes the best way is to solve them together.

[spence]

IMHO certain IJN operational capabilities are considerably better than real life or USN capabilities are considerably under-rated (worse than IRL):

1) "All torpedoes all the time" - Bettys, Nells and their descendants are all very experienced and always use torpedos when attacking shipping. Been through this in multiple threads but basically these aircraft used torpedoes only sometimes. The likely reasons being that not all aircrew were adequately trained and adequate stocks of aerial torpedoes AND torpedo maintenance personnel were not available everywhere (all level 4 airbases).

1A) Kates use torpedoes all the time too. IRL torpedo attacks seem to have been the province of the "real" KB (Akagi, Kaga, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiryu, Soryu). Only those ships appear to have had the training in making this type of attack AND the personnel to maintain the torpedoes. The "mini-KB" composed of CVL's and CVEs is pure fiction. Certainly at the beginning of the war the aircrew, the torpedo maintenance personnel and the ships themselves were definite second-stringers. AND the availability of torpedoes in the magazines of all carriers (IJN, US, and RN) is overstated.

2) Japanese Battleships are allowed far too much flexibility with regards to bombardment missions. At the beginning of the war Japan had no HE ammunition for 14+". Not until late 42 did they have a limited supply (of shells originally conceived as AA ammo). They never really developed a NGFS doctrine and corresponding trained personnel to coordinate NGFS with ground operations.

3) Japanese fleet defense doctrine is completely misrepresented. Radar or not their CAP never received adequate direction and coordination. At the beginning of the war their flak defense was utterly uncoordinated with a ring defense of capital ships evolving only late in the war (when they were beginning to run out of capital ships). IJN FLEET DEFENSE IS REPRESENTED EXACTLY IN THE SAME MANNER AS USN FLEET DEFENSE WHEREAS IT WAS IRL BASED ON A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF ASSUMPTIONS AND CAPABILITIES.

4) THE JAPANESE MERCHANT MARINE IS OVER-REPRESENTED. THE IJN PLAYER SHOULD BE CHECKING ON WHETHER EACH AND EVERY MERCHIE IS DOING SOMETHING USEFUL EVERY SINGLE TURN. As it stands now Mogami lays up 2-3 million tons of shipping in some safe harbor at the beginning of the game cause he can't really find anything for it to do (and I guess cause he sorta shares the view that there may be a bit too much).

5) Jap CD units are over-rated. The only CD unit that ever did anything notable was the Defense Battallion on Wake at the beginning of the war (a US unit). And that was mainly because the IJN tried to take Wake "on the cheap". Besides that one incident, one might conclude the big (Heavy) CD units in a few major ports also accomplished their mission since nobody ever tried to take them on. As far as the Japanese CD units are concerned, they accomplished next to nothing against the invasions that challenged them - they were suppressed by the USN bombardments (the bombardments might not have knocked out the guns but they pretty much kept them from firing on the invasion forces). The alternative to Jap CDs being over-rated would be that USN bombardments are under-rated (same capabilities as IJN in spite of a much more advanced and developed doctrine).

[Nemo121]

PzB,

Try the RHS A2A model... If there is a decent escort then the two groups of fighters get into a major dofight and unless the defenders have overwhelming numbers it lasts so long with so many ineffectual snapshots and near misses that by the time they turn on the bombers they only shoot a few down .
 
As the number of escorts falls more and more bombers get killed until such time as unescorted strikes see most bombers die. Even then though some usually get through.
 
E.g. I had 18 Bettys go on a port attack of Pearl to test the defences. They were opposed by a half-dozen P40Es and 15 obsolescent US fighters. 6 bombers were shot down, 6 turned back due to damage and 6 got through to attack the port... I think this is a much more reasonable result than in stock.
 
Also I've seen 7 Zeroes face 5 Brewsters and 5 martin 139s. The zeroes shot down 2 Brewsters but the other 3 survived and only 1 bomber was shot down by the fighters. When 17 Zeroes faced a similar attack ( 5 fighters and 6 bombers) 5 fighters and 4 bombers were shot down but 2 still got through. I'd LOVE to see a 1944 scenario as I think this sort of A2A modelling would really make a late-war Japanese defence have a lot more teeth and force much more historical play from the Allies.
 
Also it robs the IJN of about 1/3rd of its transports and many of those that remain are not at all suited to amphibious assaults ( far too large to unload in a reasonable time) and that will do a lot to slow the pace of Japanese expansion.
 
It really is a major improvement.
 
I've 2 CV battles under it and in both of them CAP scored a very reasonable number of kills but still let a fair proportion of the enemy bombers through. The CAP comprised something like 50 Zeroes vs 6 Wildcats and 15 Devastators and 30 or so Dauntlesses. I think the CAP killed the 6 Wildcats, 11 Dauntless and 11 Devastator. Something like 15 Dauntless and 4 Devastator got through to make attack runs. A second wave of unescorted Dauntlesses was slaughtered to the last plane, again very reasonable.
 
 
I've gone on record as thinking NikMod isn't the answer for a variety of reasons but I think this mod does a very good job with A2A combat. It also tones down IJN torpedo-plane ability as durability is much lower. What this, in effect, means is that if the strike goes in against unarmed merchants you get the normal really high strike rates BUT if it goes in against an agile warship with good AAA the torpedo-bomber strike rate absolutely plummets.
 
I watched loads of strike replays during my annihilation of the US Pacific fleet in my recentRHS game and I noticed a very particular pattern to each strike going in against lightly damaged or undamaged ships. Basically the Kates almost always were shot down or damaged and missed their targets UNTIL the first Vals got hits. Once the Vals got hits, caused some damage, destroyed some AAA guns and slowed the target the Kates began to score. In stock I got used to all Kate or all Val carriers as I re-organised them that way and found very little loss to doing so. In RHS the Vals actually tend to "create" the Kate's successes.
 
Really, I'm very enthusiastic about the RHS air combat model. It is by far the best I've seen in-game so far.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I don't know about all this training of Japanese pilots. I don't bomb bypassed bases or even train pilots at all. They go straight to the front and are weeded out in Darwinian fashon. I doubt I could spare the supplies to keep extra squadrons training.

"Sir, excuse me General Rupd. Everybody reported to sick bay today. It seems the men would all like to request a transfer from your unit. They respect you but think you are too old school. They want to live, love and above all live some more...

Flipper

[Nemo121]

Seriously, try RHS. You can even decide whether you want a CV-biased game, a BB-biased game or one with a little fun and frivolous units which didn't actually get built but "might have" EOS which is great for the "I wonder what would have happened IF" Brigade like me
 
Also,any EOS player who can finish China off with just the Chinese Area Army troops by July 1942 ( as is entirely possible in stock) deserves a medal. Those Chinese are now deeply tough... I know how to defeat them but it will require bringing in non-Chinese Area Army troops. This fixes another big gripe from the stock game.

[Przemcio231]

Well 3 advices to make the game more Balanced....
 
1) Cancel 1st turn move bonus to anything else then KB  , Subs and TF's that land and cover ladnigs in Singora and Khota Bahru... this will not allow some lunacy strategy landing everywhere around Pacific , DEI and such this is utter B******t , yes the Allies were inpreapered and such but the japs had to keep catius and not sending to many ships out as this could trigger some response. i can't imagine that on some point allied inteligence founds out that 50% or more of japanse shipping and warships sailed out and they would sit and watch....
 
2) Adjust Allied Fighter Plane Production to the numbers closer to reality not 40 P-40's E a month but 150 a month and such off course this production should be increased over time so the Allied player would fell the shortages of 1st part of the War....
 
3) Make CAP leaking like in Nik Mod....

[RUPD3658]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I don't know about all this training of Japanese pilots. I don't bomb bypassed bases or even train pilots at all. They go straight to the front and are weeded out in Darwinian fashon. I doubt I could spare the supplies to keep extra squadrons training.

"Sir, excuse me General Rupd. Everybody reported to sick bay today. It seems the men would all like to request a transfer from your unit. They respect you but think you are too old school. They want to live, love and above all live some more...

Flipper

Have them report to the parade grounds outside of sick bay. I am sure that once a few of them have their "Illness" treated by a 5.5mm round to the head the rest will be cured.

Their lives do not matter. Only the fate of the Empire does. [:-]

[Nemo121]

Ah, men with a survival instinct eh? Make them gunners. Their motivation will inspire them to excellent performance!