Turnaround? Lowpe (J) vs Tiemanj (A) Stock

[Lowpe]

Sweeping Prome, and also in China..deliberate attack in China, and that is about it.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

In less than good news I unload 40K supplies into Burma, 5K stay, the rest migrates out and down to Singers. I am going to have to play with the stockpile functions I think.

Having a Command HQ will add 25k to your supply.

I guess in Theory.

5th Fleet is at Moulmein, 3k supplies, Southern Army is at Raheng with 7k.

It will only attempt to gather that much supply. If there isn't enough able to flow there, well...

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: ny59giants



Having a Command HQ will add 25k to your supply. Smaller amounts all go north into Burma.

I guess in Theory.

5th Fleet is at Moulmein, 3k supplies, Southern Army is at Raheng with 7k.

It will only attempt to gather that much supply. If there isn't enough able to flow there, well...

Easier road to Moulmein than on bicycles to Singapore. I dropped it at Tavoy.

[JocMeister]

Isn´t it lovely how supply works? [:D]

I dropped 1 million supply at Haiphong to sustain the huge allied army in China. Only problem was that it flowed through Thailand and then up the dirt roads and ended up at Rangoon where I already had 1,5 million supply. I guess the Air HQ and 3 BFs there were REALLY hungry!

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Isn´t it lovely how supply works? [:D]

I dropped 1 million supply at Haiphong to sustain the huge allied army in China. Only problem was that it flowed through Thailand and then up the dirt roads and ended up at Rangoon where I already had 1,5 million supply. I guess the Air HQ and 3 BFs there were REALLY hungry!

That is out of Catch 22 isn't it. If not it should be!

Supply Sgts getting rich...[:D]

[Lowpe]

Repaired factories a couple of months into my end game fighter development.

Spidery was kind enough to run some numbers, and there is a very good chance I get the 202 in 1944 in which case I hope to make their first combat appearance in the PI.

[Lowpe]

April 15, 1943

No night aerial attacks.

A cruiser force bombards Madras, and then in a bold move sticks around and bombards again. A few tankers there, but I don't land any shells on the Prince of Wales.

[Lowpe]

Zeroes sweep as possibly high as they can go at Prome, then Allied bombers hit the troops at Prome and lose a few bombers to Flak.

I think a combined high altitude sweep, with CAP leaking over with yield more attacks against Allied bombers.

Once again I lose 2 fighters for 1 of his, and one corsair in the mix, so this is probably a really good trade...

[Lowpe]

Overall, it was a good day for the Empires planes with losses equal at 24 on both sides thanks to a nice sweep in China that caught some Lancers.

The CL Nashville shows back up on the sunk ship list, after eating a 250 kg gp bomb yesterday which penetrated thru the deck and did some nasty damage. Also nailed an Allied sub near the Hokkaido, but the subs come and go on the intelligence report.

For this next day I should finally finish off three more Chinese corps in wood ridge terrain, tough to kill, and will finally be moving onto the western mountain push in china.

More troops moving to Burma, what a sinkhole...

In Burma, the Allied air transport fleet is now at Chittacong, with their squadron of fighter protection. I need to free up a squadron or two to sweep those planes in the near future.

[Lokasenna]

Can you bomb the port at Madras? Looks like a lot of ships present if you hit 3 during bombardments.

[Lowpe]

April 16th, 1943

In a shocking development, Betties fly at night against Prome's massive airbase and actually do some damage...wohoo!

[JocMeister]

[:D]

[Lowpe]

Allies bomb the IJA at Prome, I lose 3 fighters for every 1 Allied plane, and will sweep and do it again on the morrow.

The IJA continues to punish Chinese corp, maybe they will be wiped out this next turn.

Upcoming plans for the morrow, I moved forward a lot of planes on naval attack in Burma and that is about it...not too exciting I fear.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Can you bomb the port at Madras? Looks like a lot of ships present if you hit 3 during bombardments.

quote:

I have been working on getting all my Emilies trained up as a deep strike force...I might be ready in a week or so to hit them.

[Lowpe]

Fusan:

I added a Tonan Whaler to moving oil two days ago at Fusan, on day 1 after the selection oil dropped to 12K from 14k which I took to be pretty good with all the ships loading oil.

Now, on day 2, the oil rebounded to 21K. This is great news, as the Whaler is still loading oil, but the bigger demand really pulled the oil into Fusan.

I have also added several other oil demands too...maybe I have crossed the threshold with oil here at Fusan...here is hoping I can maintain these inflows.

[MrBlizzard]

To keep supplies in Burma, preventing them going back to Singa, I found usefull raising requirements in Burma bases instead than using stockpiling. Stockpiling prevents distributing them to units outside the base.

[ny59giants]

I made this document in 3/13, so most of it should still be true about supply movement.

Supply Movement per Michael M.
Each of the four commodities (supply, fuel, oil, resource) are calculated separately.
The sequence is :
For each base, determine the excess amount for each of the four commodities.
Then check all bases to see if the base needs more of the commody and is within supply range of the sending base.
If so, give the base the needed amount (or some of it depending on spoilage and distance from sending base if applicable) and deduct that amount from the sending base's excess.
Repeat until all bases checked or run out of excess commodities.
A final sweep is then made of the bases to see if any excess commodity can be sent to a local higher-value coastal port.

Eastern USA never demands commodities, but will try to push it out to any base that has a need within its supply range.

Note that the general supply range varies from short (<89 3 out of 7 days), medium (<49 2 out of 7 days) and long (10 once every 7 days, 1-5 randomly once every 7 days). The number is the number that shows with the hotkey '5' where sending base starts with 100 supply points and it goes down depending on terrain and rail/road.

Originally the excess push to coastal ports was based on the port having a hard maximum limit. That was changed to a max amount based on the size of the port, taking the original hard max as the value for a port 10, and making each port now a % of that.

With the US supply, it doesn't really matter if the excess sits in SF/LA/Seattle or Eastern. Eastern will always push the excess to the ports before it begins to makes a difference. The change of location of the excess I think comes down to fixing up the commodity flow overall and setting practical limits to how much is moved and stored.

These changes plus the additional temporary requirements when a TF is loading in a port, makes the commodity flow more dynamic than previously, IMHO. (Only lots of playtime will see if I have managed to pull this off.)

This change also tends to stop the flow-on affect where large amount starts in one place and keeps bouncing from base to base dependent on the base's number in the table.

The m4 change keeps tally of how much each base is getting and adds it back at the end of the supply phase, plus each base's excess is only calculated once at the start of each stage so it does not see any large amounts being given to the base until the end of the phase - thus no passing it on like moving 32k supply from Rangoon to eastern China. It could happen but not in one turn like now.


Per witpqs:
Each receiving base that is in range of a base that has excess supplies and needs supplies will get them.

1st. every base that needs 1x requirement gets 1x. So this is one big loop through all bases so as to get maximum coverage and that every base gets at least 1x previously this was 3x only. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement and if add supply is being used then sending base guards up to 4x.

2nd every base that can get 3x or some portion there of will get it. So this is another big loop to see if we can get bases up to at least 3x requirement. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

3rd. every base that is eligible for excess normally this is big major bases or bases with the highest spoilage limit previously there was no check before sending supplies to small bases. Sending base will not send any supplies that would dip into its own 3x requirement.

4th. One final big loop through all bases to resupply LCUs and whatever base the LCU is at is the only base it can draw supplies from previously there was no restriction. If LCU is in non-base hex or enemy then no restriction. Sending base will guard up to 20 supply points meaning if a unit can be supplied and base has it then unit gets it, previously base had to have above 3x.

In each big loop except for the 4th the amount that can be sent is modified by Prim HQ of base (just like witp) and if present adds an extra 25k to requirement and we check for max draw and we check spoilage limit at base receiving base.

How far a base can receive supplies is determined by tracing a supply cost path starting value used is 100 just like witp. There are three different ranges used throughout each week 89 which is very short range and happens 4 times a week, 49 which is medium range and happens twice a week and 10 which is long range which happens once per week. These values are the minimum required trace value from sending base to receiving base and the trace value must be equal to or greater than this to receive supplies so you may notice that some bases only get supplies 3 times or in some cases once per week.

Using the add supply button means first the base will try and get 1x requirement then during the 3x loop it will try and get 3x whatever is in that field so a base has 1000 normal requirement and I press the add supply to 1000 making new requirement of 2000 thus 1x + 3x = 2000 + 6,000 = 8,000 that the base will try and get.


Short range is trace value of 89 - 100 and is used 4 times per week.
Medium range is trace value 49 - 100 and is used 2 times per week.
Long range is trace value 10 - 100 and is used 1 time per week.

[ny59giants]

Another one done at same time by Alfred.

Gentlemen,

Recently I was contacted by a four year forumite veteran seeking clarification on how to determine how long a supply stockpile at a particular base might last. Apparently his requests from other players for similar information had not been as helpful as he had hoped.

It seems to me that other long term players, and of course in particular new players, might benefit from having all the relevant issues presented in a consolidated location. Before continuing two points need to be immediately identified. Firstly, what follows applies only to the official game scenarios. Some of the mods have altered important details. Secondly, readers who wish to see the impact of logistics on operations are well advised to read Andy Mac’s AAR. Probably more than any other AAR writer, Andy Mac regularly explains how his operations are shaped by logistical considerations. As he is a dev, his observations should not be overlooked by anyone who wishes to master this topic.

(A) Overview

The determination of how large a supply stockpile should be, or how long it might last, is not an exact science. There are too many variables outside of a player’s control for 100% predictive accuracy. What can be identified are the factors which impact upon supply stockpiles at a particular base. These factors can be broadly classified as falling within the following areas:

• Supply creation
• Supply movement
• Supply destruction
• Supply consumption

These areas are looked at in detail in the following sections. When the discussion touches on naval matters, fuel is included in the discussion. By necessity, this discussion is essentially a summary, for complete details of all the game scenario data and relationships, readers are directed back to the manual.

One very important point for players to be aware of is that the aggregated supply of all your supply stockpiles from all your bases is of no real value. To accomplish anything you need to have supply (and fuel) locally where it will be consumed. Ten million supply points located in San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego will not feed your forces fighting on Guadalcanal. Those forces will be fed solely out of what is stored locally on Guadalcanal.

(B) Mummy, where does supply come from?

There are three basic supply sources:

• National Automatic
• Imports
• Industrial Enterprises

The Burma Road is a unique supply source. Each turn that the Allied player can trace an uninterrupted supply path along the transportation network linking Rangoon and Tsuyung, 500 supply points are delivered to Tsuyung.

(B.1) National Automatic

Scenario designers can assign a daily amount of supply (and or fuel) which will automatically arrive each day at a base. This automatic delivery will cease immediately upon the capture of the base by the enemy. The deliveries will immediately resume when the base is liberated from the enemy.

The amount delivered daily is the figure to the right of the slash in the supplies on hand data found on the base screen (see manual page 205). There is nothing the player can do to increase or reduce this amount in game, other than of course to lose/capture the base.

(B.2) Imports

Some importation of supply to a base occurs automatically without any player action required. Players can manually attempt to import supply (and fuel). The opposing player can block the automatic importation, or attempt to interdict the imported supply.
Most automatic importation of supply (and fuel) occurs overland but under certain restricted circumstances, it can also occur over water (see s.9.3.3.3 of the manual). There is no aerial automatic importation of supply. Players can manually import, by ships both supply and fuel, but airplanes cannot transport fuel they can only transport supply. Players cannot manually directly import supply (and fuel) overland, however by manipulation of the supply required spinner or stockpile option, a player can manually exert some influence on the direction and amount of supply moved overland by the program automatically.

Supply will not move automatically overland through a hexside owned by the enemy nor through a contested hex.
How often supply will automatically move overland depends on the quality of the overland transportation links. The table in s.8.3.1 of the manual details the cost of moving supply through the different terrain types and transportation infrastructure.

Each overland transportation route has a value which is determined by subtracting from 100 the cost of movement associated with each hex along which the supply must travel. The value of the overland route then determines how often a delivery is made:

• Four times per week if the overland transportation route amounts to 89 - 100
• Two times per week if the route amounts to 49 – 88
• Once per week if the route amounts to 10 – 48

Bases will only export supply which is viewed as surplus. Supply in excess of 3x the amount required by the base is considered surplus. This surplus supply may go to another base or be consumed by LCUs in the field.

The amount of supply which can be delivered by a Transport plane or Level Bomber is (Maximum Load)/2000. Fractions are rounded down but each plane can always deliver a minimum of 1 supply point.

(B.3) Industrial Enterprises

Most supply is generated by industrial enterprises. For the official scenarios supply is generated by:

• Heavy Industry, inputs needed are resources and fuel
• Light Industry, input needed is only resources
• Refinery, input needed is only oil

Players must distinguish between raw material production facilities and manufacturing facilities.

Raw material production facilities are resource and oil centres. These facilities immediately cease to produce raw materials as soon as any enemy LCU enters the hex.

Provided they retain access to the necessary raw materials, either by importation or accessing a local stockpile, manufacturing facilities will continue to produce supply even if an enemy LCU is present in the hex.

Production at all industrial enterprises can be damaged by several means:

• City attack air mission (see pages 151-152 of the manual)
• Naval bombardment task force
• Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover

(C) Honey, I seem to have shrunk the supply stockpile!

Sometimes players will look at the supply stockpiled at a base and see it is inexplicably disappearing. Excluding the detailed factors which are looked at in section (D) below, the usual reasons for an unexplained shrinking supply stockpile are:

• Supply (and fuel) spoilage
• Repair of industrial enterprises
• Airfield/port supply hits

(C.1) Spoilage

Bases whose combined airfield and port levels amount to less than 9 can suffer spoilage of their supply (and fuel) stockpile.

Spoilage will occur if the following base thresholds are exceeded:

• Size 8 – above 197k supply (129k fuel)
• Size 7 – above 152k supply (99k fuel)
• Size 6 – above 113k supply (73k fuel)
• Size 5 – above 80k supply (51k fuel)
• Size 4 – above 53k supply (33k fuel)
• Size 3 – above 32k supply (19k fuel)
• Size 2 – above 17k supply (9k fuel)
• Size 1 – above 8k supply (3k fuel)

Note that the check for spoilage is made for each stockpile. A Size 8 base with 154k supply plus 83k fuel will not suffer spoilage. It will suffer supply spoilage if it has 204k supply plus 22k fuel.

Dot bases can store up to 5k supplies and 1k fuel before suffering spoilage.

(C.2) Industrial Repairs

It costs supply to repair damaged industrial facilities. This is a particularly important point for Japanese players to remember for they have many more industrial facilities which might need to be repaired than the list of those dealt with in section (B.3) above.

The cost to repair a single damaged industrial centre is 1k supply. The repair will only commence if the player has also “lodged“ a 10k supply “bond” with the “tradesmen”. The supply must be present onsite.

(C.3) Airfield/Port Supply Hits

Attacks against airfields and ports can result in supply hits which destroy some supply. The actual amount so destroyed is very difficult to quantify for several reasons.

• The combat report is subject to FOW so there is always some uncertainty as to how many hits actually ensued
• Fort levels and terrain affect the supply hits
• The amount of supply destroyed is a random amount based on the device’s effect and anti-soft rating – essentially the bigger the bomb the more damage inflicted

(D) Professor, they’ll never find a use for supply, there just isn’t any demand for it!

Congratulations, if you have read this far, now comes the pay off. Supply present locally is the game currency needed to undertake the following activities not mentioned previously.

• Feed LCUs – starving LCUs have reduced firepower, reduced capacity to reduce fatigue, a lower adjusted Assault Value
• Air missions
• Rearm ships after combat
• Pay for receiving replacements for both land and air units
• Construction of base facilities

(D.1) LCU supply cost

Most players emphasise the Assault Value (AV) of a LCU instead of the combat firepower of the unit which is a much more useful measure. The merits of the two measures is however a discussion best left to another day. What players do generally tend to pay little attention is the cost of maintaining a unit out in the field.

The average size of a fully built up Allied division is about 450 AV. A fully equipped Chinese LCU could be double this but they tend to lack access to the necessary supply. A division of about 450 AV, which is not engaged in combat will consume approximately 1500 supply points monthly, or 50 daily. A brigade of approximately 150 AV not engaged in combat will consume approximately 500 supply points monthly.

(D.2) Cost of air missions

Each sortie flown consumes supply. Lack the requisite supply, the air mission is not flown. The actual supply cost depends on the type of mission flown and the type of plane as follows:

• Offensive Mission flown by a Level Bomber, the cost is (Maximum Load/1000) per plane
• Offensive Mission flown by a Dive Bomb or Torpedo, the cost is 1 supply point per plane
• Other missions such as Search and CAP expend only 1/3 of a supply point per plane

Hence a 12 plane Liberator squadron sent to bomb an airfield will consume 96 supply points. A USMC torpedo squadron of 18 Avengers will consume 18 supply points.

(D.3) Ship Rearming

The rearming of a ship after combat consumes supply. The supply cost is:

• [(Weapon Effect Rating * 2) * (Number of Guns) * (Ammo per gun)] / 2000

(D.4) Cost of replacements

The basic supply cost for a LCU replacement device is the load cost.

For air units, the supply cost for each replacement airframe depends on the type of airframe:

• 12 supply points for fighter, fighter bomber
• 15 supply points for dive bomber, torpedo bomber, float plane, float fighter
• 18 supply points for night fighter, recon
• 30 supply points for heavy bomber, medium bomber, light bomber, attack bomber, transport, patrol

Thus the previously mentioned 12 plane Liberator squadron (see D.2 above) consumed 96 supply points to fly the mission. If the squadron had 4 planes shot down, it would need an additional 120 supply points to replace it’s losses.

(D.5) Base facilities

The repair of base facilities (airfield and port) does not cost supply. However the construction of base facilities (airfield, port and forts) does consume supply. The supply is not actually consumed by the facility but by the engineers engaged in the construction work.

Engineers must be in combat mode to build base facilities. Whilst working, each engineer (an engineer vehicle = 5 engineers) consumes 1 supply point each 12 hours. Hence if a player has 100 engineers building, they will consume 200 supply points daily, an amount which is equivalent to approximately 4 infantry divisions.

Alfred

[Lowpe]

Thanks so much.[&o]

I remember reading these prior, but like most things about this game I forget...

Just a quick not that the 5 key shows supply paths in PBEM, but against the ai it show the value.

I think Lokasenna just sandboxed the supply requirements for replacing frames.[:D]

Also, it is my understanding now that factories (refinery,LI, HI,oil,resources etc) is not functioning in a contested hex anymore, although inherent supply might be? Not sure there.

The key, it seems to me, in pulling from Fusan, and then seeding each link on the long supply road so that Fusan can be pulling many times a week and eventually weeding out those seeding convoys...and that each step along the supply line is pulling as many times a week as it can creating a magic supply route back to the HI.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Also, it is my understanding now that factories (refinery,LI, HI,oil,resources etc) is not functioning in a contested hex, although inherent supply might be? Not sure there.

Not for latest patch from Henderson ... it now depends upon factory type and composition of contesting forces...