Japanese Air to Air Combat Dropoff

[Andy Mac]

That radar also upgrades all US Land Base Forces at the same time improving CAP ability so its not a hard coded thing its a device thing [:D][:D]

[bstarr]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Perhaps, as a test you could run a series of tests in January 43 and then the same tests in january 44 and compare and contrast. I'd be willing to help run one end of these tests as I think this is a serious issue which needs to be either confirmed or disproved ASAP.

By having only date as a variable it should be possible to reach conclusive results. I do think both series should be run with experience 75 pilots as thats about the best experience players are likely to see in-game.

I've already done that, but it's been some time ago - I'd rather someone else give it a fresh look at it anyway since my mind's made up on the matter. I agree with Mike S, this has got to be a cop-out shortcut to get rid of the free on map training cheat. The problem is, this little fix handicaps the hell out of player who doesn't cheat.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: bstarr
I've already done that, but it's been some time ago - I'd rather someone else give it a fresh look at it anyway since my mind's made up on the matter. I agree with Mike S, this has got to be a cop-out shortcut to get rid of the free on map training cheat. The problem is, this little fix handicaps the hell out of player who doesn't cheat.

AMEN. That's what I mean about "instead of fixing the REAL problem". Maybe in WITP II -- if we live that long.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


[

Total "WAG" here, but it sounds like someone's "quick fix" when it was discovered that by using some of the exploits for "on map training", the Japanese were still fielding entire units of experiance 90+ pilots in 1944. Even Matrix knew that couldn't be right, but instead of dealing with the real problem.....

Just a guess...., but it fits in with a lot of other "oddities" that have cropped up.

Amen! Halaluah! Mike Sholl for President (or something).

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Cid,

Thanks for the feedback... I find it amusing that Mike Wood pops in to correct the thing about a "jap bonus" but doesn't comment on what seems to be a much larger issue.

Can you confirm that this hard coded "you're sh1t" tag applies not only to air to air combat but ALSO to naval and ground attack missions ( possibly even recon) ?  If so it is an even less defensible issue.


Idea: I'm not sure if this is possible or not but would it be possible to set the start date of a game to 7th December 1931 such that it ends in 1936 and never runs into the mid-43 era? It is an imperfect fix but date fixes are a time-honoured way of getting around hard-coded effects linked to dates and I'm sure people could put up with " add 10 to the year". Probaby can't be done but I figured it was worth floating. 

Nemo - you are brilliant. There are probably date coded things we would screw up though - might not be worth it.
But it might be worth trying.

Mike Sholl's idea of "fix it" seems better - but we might be able to create an interim cure. I have done this in several matters - and will change them back if the problems go away. I also did a few things on principle that fixed problems I did not know about (e.g. nuclear bombardments). There is a lot we can do - and I am glad this thread got started: we may think of things we otherwise would have ignored - and apparently we do get read by Matrix people - so maybe they will get some useful ideas for upgrades as well. . Let me work on this.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

The RHS air combat samples I posted in that  other thread were all run in 1944.  Apart from the 50 aircraft limit problem the results didn't seem outlandish, given all pilots were experience 99.

Maybe the problem is fixed in 1.80 or 1.81? Joes comments and my tests were run on 1.6 level code.
And Joe hated the issue.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My understanding is that there is no drop off of Japanese abilities but there is an increase to USN CArrier CAP Co ordination not as a hard coded ability but as of I think its 4/43 when the superb CSP-1 Air Search Radar becomes available on US CV's (I thin Wasps and Essexs get it in 4/43 others in the 10/43 upgrade cycle)

My understanding is the Radar improves the early ability of CAP to be in positions as its range is 400k compared to 150k of the previous type this may appear as a CAP advantage but its radar driven

IF radar is related to this, the problem may be much reduced in RHS. RHS starts Japan with a few radars (they date from before the war) on land - and upgrades so that by midwar some radar is on major ships - particularly carriers.
It is not, however, great radar - and the range is actually 10 miles less than it was in CHS (when it was not widely available). Still - it is a lot better than sound detectors. Note also that sound detectors were grossly underrated in stock and CHS - and are given their real ratings in RHS - which are not great - but not virtually worthless either. What I don't know how to fix is the practically worthless value of visual spotters? Ideas?

[jwilkerson]

These planes cannot deliver bombs - much less fight in the sky. Joe guessed the date was 1 July 1943 - it is officially "mid 1943" - and Joe says "one day my fighters are competative - the next day they are not - it is a razor sharp edge"

While I've heard "rumors" about an "Allied CAP Bonus" .. despite both Don and Joe looking in the code and discussing with Michael Wood .. we've never been able to find any "Allied CAP Bonus" in the code .. i.e. it doesn't exist.

However, I think Andy Mac is on to something. If most American radars upgrade in Mid-1943 .. that might explain it. The "bounce" formula does use a "detection" factor as one of its key ingredients and "detection" would certainly be impacted by radar. So the "alleged" CAP bonus could be device driven.

If someone is testing this we'd be interested in the results.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: bstarr

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Perhaps, as a test you could run a series of tests in January 43 and then the same tests in january 44 and compare and contrast. I'd be willing to help run one end of these tests as I think this is a serious issue which needs to be either confirmed or disproved ASAP.

By having only date as a variable it should be possible to reach conclusive results. I do think both series should be run with experience 75 pilots as thats about the best experience players are likely to see in-game.

I've already done that, but it's been some time ago - I'd rather someone else give it a fresh look at it anyway since my mind's made up on the matter. I agree with Mike S, this has got to be a cop-out shortcut to get rid of the free on map training cheat. The problem is, this little fix handicaps the hell out of player who doesn't cheat.

And for the record - I don't think the "free on map training cheat" is a cheat at all. What I DO see as a problem is the rate at which training increases ratings: it is way too fast for average cases. Yet in real life - we can do it even faster than code does - with focused effort. The main thing it takes to get better pilots is priority from senior staff - resources of various kinds - and if that is present - you really do get better pilots.

[Andy Mac]

US Radar on Carriers (air search) and all allied base forces

CXAM (ON Carriers) - Range 150, Penetration 500, Effect 50
SCR Radar - Range 250, Penetration 500, Effect 70

Both Upgrade as of 1/43 (subject to carrier upgrade cycles) to

CSP -1 Radar - Range 400, Penetration 500, Effect 80

Basically the CSP -1 Radar if it works as I think it does will mean more Fighters on CAP at the correct Bounce Altitude so less pilots having to climb to intercept when on CAP basically better allied fighter performance when on CAP and out to 6 or 7 hexes from any base (400/60) less chance for Japanese pilots to surprise or bounce allied air units.

This is fairly powerfull.

I think the best Japanese radar has range 100 and effect 45 so at best 2 hex bonus and lower strength than allied

Andy

[Andy Mac]

Also the best Japanese radar doesnt arrive until Jan 44 I think until then they are stuck with sound detectors.
 
Basically 43 will be a Bad year for Japanese fighters actualkly getting better in 44 at least on defence.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Also the best Japanese radar doesnt arrive until Jan 44 I think until then they are stuck with sound detectors.

Basically 43 will be a Bad year for Japanese fighters actualkly getting better in 44 at least on defence.

I am a radar technician (originally) and a student of WWII radar technology. This is a complex subject - and one full of misconceptions and no little prejudice. WITP is hard due to severe slot limits for Japan. But approximately
the above is wrong, although just what is meant by "best Japanese radar" is not defined. Japanese radar is
pretty much an early war development - Japan was a radar pioneer and had research as did all the great powers pre war - but only a little was on land when the war began. I cannot create separate devices for this - so I simply use the naval radar on land - as a compromise. The naval radars are not particularly different - just smaller - so it is not too bad. For air search Japan has only two slots - one I call Type 11/12/13 and one I call Type 22. The former is more or less early warning (if 90 miles is early warning) - the latter really air search/surface search (a type we do not have) or short range air search. . The first naval radar went to sea in 1942 - in time for (but not at) Midway - and by 1943 all important developments have occurred. So I regard the above statement as essentially incorrect at its heart. Anyway - what matters is the date the radar appears on ships - and case by case this is set to the right date - even for submarines (which I did for CHS as well as RHS at Andrew's request). Land is more tricky - things upgrade too fast - so I did things like make the radar net build by attaching it to mid and late war reinforcement units (mainly base forces).

[Andy Mac]

Sorry if I wasnt clear the only Air Search radar that the japanese get that I am aware of that are used in Base Forces or on board ships is the type 13 it is the upgrade for Sound Detectors in Japanese Base Forces and arrives in January 44. (Type 22? may also be included for surface ships but I thought that was a surface radar only but I could be wrong in which case the IJN on board ships has better radar than any Japanese Base)
 
It has a range of 100miles and has a 45 Penetration and is a significant upgrade from the Sound Detectors which had range 25miles.
 
The allies from Jan 43 get the CPS - 1 that has a detection range of 400 miles and a penetration of 80 this applies to all USN Carriers and all  US Base Forces get at least two of this device.
 
As far as I am aware until 1/44 NO Japanese Base Force has an air search radar.
 
Some surface ships may have or carriers and it may be better I am not an expert on Japanese systems.
 
In addition I only play stock so it may different in a mod.
 

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: el cid again
And for the record - I don't think the "free on map training cheat" is a cheat at all. What I DO see as a problem is the rate at which training increases ratings: it is way too fast for average cases. Yet in real life - we can do it even faster than code does - with focused effort. The main thing it takes to get better pilots is priority from senior staff - resources of various kinds - and if that is present - you really do get better pilots.

I agree with you. In the real war, Japan did not build up their pilot training program and suffered from it. That does not mean they couldn't have developed a pilot training program. Before 12/7/41, they were sending military observers around to other countries collecting intelligence and ideas. If Japan had put a high value on pilot training, they could have observed the RAF's system and copied it. In their arrogance, they believed their training system was as good, or even superior to any of their potential opponents, so they decided not to make any changes until it was too late.

If a Japanese player in the game decides to set up a training program, they are simply doing something that was possible for Japan to do, though they chose not to do it. I don't call that a cheat. To me, a cheat is taking advantage of something in the game engine that would not be historically possible.

Bill

[Andy Mac]

Just checked Type 22 and type 23 japanese radars have range of 20 and 34 miles respectively so as I said best japanese radar arrives 1/44 and is the type 13 albeit it has lower penetration than the two navy systems.

It is also the only radar able to be deployed in base Forces

[Andy Mac]

Just checked even IJNAF Base Forces are on the Sound Detecto - Type 13 path so the earliest they get Radar is 1/44

[Andy Mac]

I am of course as always refering to stock as I am unaware of whats been doen to CHS or RHS and my point is that if I have understood Mike and Joe correctly there are no 'hidden' or hard coded air to air bonuses, penalties or any other type of restricted influence on air combat. (except zero bonus)

Its all in game aircraft stats, pilot xp etc etc

In answer to the in game question why do allies seem to get better in in the air and Japanese get worse 43 my suggested answer is the allied radar upgrade and lack of upgrade on the Japanese side lead to better bounce bonuses for allied aircraft, improved CAP numbers and position etc etc tied to the improved detection level provided by lots of top notch radars being deployed.

It may be wrong but it seems plausible especially as most A2A combat does tend to occur within 400 miles of Allied bases in 43 except for late 43 P38J escorted raids

Andy

[Mike Scholl]

"I agree with you. In the real war, Japan did not build up their pilot training program and suffered from it. That does not mean they couldn't have developed a pilot training program. Before 12/7/41, they were sending military observers around to other countries collecting intelligence and ideas. If Japan had put a high value on pilot training, they could have observed the RAF's system and copied it. In their arrogance, they believed their training system was as good, or even superior to any of their potential opponents, so they decided not to make any changes until it was too late.

If a Japanese player in the game decides to set up a training program, they are simply doing something that was possible for Japan to do, though they chose not to do it. I don't call that a cheat. To me, a cheat is taking advantage of something in the game engine that would not be historically possible.

Bill "


The "cheat" is not the idea of Japanese "on map training", it's the way the game executes it. Fighter Pilots can work their way up to 80-90 straffing Chinese peasants (which might make them better at "ground support", but won't do a thing for their "air-to-air" primary skills). Bombers can do the same running little "transport shuttles". What happens in the game is a joke, and can be abused beyond all reccognition.

If the Japanese wanted to engage in a real expanded "Pilot Training Program" to increase the number of "trained pilots" recieved, they would have had to increase trainer production and pull a number of their skilled pre-war pilots back to use as instructors. As the IJN didn't even have enough trained pilots to man the A/C it had available on Dec. 7th, this is unlikely. Japan's whole "war strategy" (such as it was) was based around the idea of a short war..., even they knew they didn't have the economic strength for a long one.

[Nicholas Bell]

Just a few quick "test" runs with Japanese baseforces outfitted with US radars shows a marked improvement in the number of aircraft intercepting.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
The "cheat" is not the idea of Japanese "on map training", it's the way the game executes it. Fighter Pilots can work their way up to 80-90 straffing Chinese peasants (which might make them better at "ground support", but won't do a thing for their "air-to-air" primary skills). Bombers can do the same running little "transport shuttles". What happens in the game is a joke, and can be abused beyond all reccognition.

If the Japanese wanted to engage in a real expanded "Pilot Training Program" to increase the number of "trained pilots" recieved, they would have had to increase trainer production and pull a number of their skilled pre-war pilots back to use as instructors. As the IJN didn't even have enough trained pilots to man the A/C it had available on Dec. 7th, this is unlikely. Japan's whole "war strategy" (such as it was) was based around the idea of a short war..., even they knew they didn't have the economic strength for a long one.

True, there are innacuracies. It should be more difficult to build up your pilot skill to 80+ doing tasks that don't directly apply to combat.

Ultimately, this game is attempting to model something massively complex. I don't believe any computer game has tried to simulate anything on this scale down to this detail before. I know Pacific War and some other earlier engines attempted some of this.

The engine has limits. The training model could probably be tweaked a bit, but it would take some heavy rework of the engine to make it work completely realistically.

As far as including training aircraft in the game, I believe the pilot pool represents pilots who have been through basic and advanced training. When you are drawing low experience pilots, that represents pilots who have been through an abreivated basic training program and didn't learn as much as those who had been through the complete program.

The next step after a pilot comes out of the replacement pool would be transition training in obsolete versions of aircraft they will be flying in combat. In the US, the old Brewster Buffalos, P-39s, and other aircraft obsolete at the beginning of the war were retained for training. In Canada, the Canadians were building large numbers of Hurricanes to train RAF pilots.

I don't see it as unrealistic for a Japanese in game training program to be using Nates and Claudes. In the real war, many of these were scrapped for their materials. Still, quite a few remained to be used up as Kamikazes at the end. The USN fighter pilots reported engaging a wide range of obsolete Japanese planes attempting to get through to the carriers.

Bill