MWiF Map Review - America

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Hairog
Silly me of course the St. Lawrence Seaway was not completed until 1959. Duh. [8|]

The mine sweepers, subs and landing craft made in Manitowoc, WI were sent down the Mississippi system during WWII. The heyday of Manitowoc, WI shipbuilding was during World War II when 28 submarines were built. In fact, more than 100 vessels including landing craft, minesweepers and submarine chasers were constructed for the war. All made their way to the Gulf of Mexico and from there to where ever they were assigned. There were a number of mock invasions to test out landing craft etc. held on the western shores of Michigan. Nice beaches there.

So you'd have the equivalent of river warfare during the Civil War with torpedo boats trying to slip past the forts along the Ohio river etc. Probably wouldn't have happened even if the Axis had some how got to the US.

The ore freighters during WWII were still huge and their work vital to the war effort but they went from Duluth to the steel mills in Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland etc. Most of the steel for WWII came from this route. The freighters had to stay within the Great Lakes system however. They couldn't get out into the Atlantic until 1959.

This fact might be worth while modeling. It would have been a huge setback to the war effort if these freighters could not transport the ore from Duluth to the steel mills. It would have taken enormous amounts of trains and trucks to do the same thing.

Though I am loathe to add rules, we might treat this similar to the way the Swedish resources get to Germany through Narvik. That would require (1) designating a resource(s) which has to go to Duluth by rail, (2) control of the choke points (e.g., from Lake Superior to Huron & within Lake Huron just above Detroit), and (3) use within the factories at Chicago, Milqaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo.

That seems like a lot of effort for very little gain. Perhaps as part of America in Flames in a future MWIF product?

[Froonp]

Though I am loathe to add rules, we might treat this similar to the way the Swedish resources get to Germany through Narvik. That would require (1) designating a resource(s) which has to go to Duluth by rail, (2) control of the choke points (e.g., from Lake Superior to Huron & within Lake Huron just above Detroit), and (3) use within the factories at Chicago, Milqaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo.

That seems like a lot of effort for very little gain. Perhaps as part of America in Flames in a future MWIF product?

Yes, keep that idea for MWiF product 2.

[Froonp]

Here is a draft drawing of the coastlines of the East Coast.
On the real maps, most of the rivers and lakes are named, and most of the city & ports names are better placed.

The most difficult places to draw were New York and Washington areas.

Long Island (to the east of New York) is not a real island on this MWiF map (it was originaly, but it led to a strange drawing due to the hexes), because it is easy to enter and leave this island, it is so close to the continent and I suppose there are lots of crossing means between New Yok Island and Long Island.
I hope it is OK, and wait for your comments.

[Froonp]

Here is the southern US coast.

Miami was not part of this map originaly, but I added it because in 1940, 172,172 people lived in the city (Wikipedia). I also added a minor port to it (not visible on the picture, because I forgot to place it here), tell me if this is ok, I did no researchs on Miami's Port capacity.

Also, I forgot to say that on previous picture, I added Connecticut river (river west of Boston), because it was on the WiF FE maps and not on this one. Wikipedia confirms that it is an obstacle to movement.

Edit : Here it is the area around New Orleans that was very hard to draw. Especially because of this lake on the NW hexside, that I first wanted to remove, but it is really large in reality.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Here is a draft drawing of the coastlines of the East Coast.
On the real maps, most of the rivers and lakes are named, and most of the city & ports names are better placed.

The most difficult places to draw were New York and Washington areas.

Long Island (to the east of New York) is not a real island on this MWiF map (it was originaly, but it led to a strange drawing due to the hexes), because it is easy to enter and leave this island, it is so close to the continent and I suppose there are lots of crossing means between New Yok Island and Long Island.
I hope it is OK, and wait for your comments.

Yes, all the cities along the east coast are on the coast, which puts Richmond and Philadelphia in the SE corner of their hexes.

The water indentation you have in the hex NW of New York City (NYC) is the Hudson River and can be removed. We'll let the river overlay put that terrain graphic in. The Hudson river really bisects the hex NW of NYC so the river line should run due north and then NW out of NYC - that will give the hex NW of NYC 2 river hexsides (E and NE) instead of 3.

The connection between NYC and Newark would then be a straits hex. They built the Verrazano Narrows bridge in the 1970s there and it is very long. Shove the port symbol out into the ocean (soutrhern tip) to remove some of the clutter in the hex and the factories can then be placed on Long Island (not accurate with reality but it will look better). You might make Staten Island (between NYC and Newark) small - I can't tell how big it is now with the factories on top.

I lived in New Jersey for 14 years when I was growing up and in Philadelphia for 26 after college. The 3 NJ hexes are hard to type for terrain. The northern most is hilly woods with a stretch of clear running from Philadelphia to NYC. From a combat point of view, the offensives during the American Revolutionary War ran between those two cities frequently - so the clear terrain seems appropriate.

Southern NJ is farmland and pine barrens - it is known as the Garden State for all the vegetable farms and fruit ochards . All of southern NJ was created as deposits/delta from the Delaware River over hundreds of thousands of years - so it's flat and a combination of sandy, innumerable dwarf pine 'forests'. I guess labelling it as forest isn't too bad.

"In the pines, in the pines, where the sun never shines, and the wind blows cold through the trees." A nice tune too.

[Froonp]

Well, I did not understand quite well all what you said, especially with the river Hudson.
I did not understood wether you advised to remove the river hexside and put an all sea hexside (because you speak of a strait), or wether letting it as it is but just removing the graphic coastline.

So I tried to improve the drawing. I increased the size of the NYC strip of land (I forgot the name) and placed the icons better (as you said for NYC).

In the below graphic, for clarity, I show the map as it is with the coastline, and the same map as it is with the current CSV data I'm working on.

Comments ?

[Mziln]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Edit : Here it is the area around New Orleans that was very hard to draw. Especially because of this lake on the NW hexside, that I first wanted to remove, but it is really large in reality.

That would be Lake Pontchartrain.

While the mountains arround Little Rock, Arkansas should be the Ouachita (ou-ah-chi-ta or Wash-eh-taw) Mountains (I think).

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is the southern US coast.

Miami was not part of this map originaly, but I added it because in 1940, 172,172 people lived in the city (Wikipedia). I also added a minor port to it (not visible on the picture, because I forgot to place it here), tell me if this is ok, I did no researchs on Miami's Port capacity.

Also, I forgot to say that on previous picture, I added Connecticut river (river west of Boston), because it was on the WiF FE maps and not on this one. Wikipedia confirms that it is an obstacle to movement.

Edit : Here it is the area around New Orleans that was very hard to draw. Especially because of this lake on the NW hexside, that I first wanted to remove, but it is really large in reality.

The hex northeast of Cincinnatti is Dayton, Ohio, home of the Wright brothers and Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

[wfzimmerman]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is the southern US coast.

Miami was not part of this map originaly, but I added it because in 1940, 172,172 people lived in the city (Wikipedia). I also added a minor port to it (not visible on the picture, because I forgot to place it here), tell me if this is ok, I did no researchs on Miami's Port capacity.

Also, I forgot to say that on previous picture, I added Connecticut river (river west of Boston), because it was on the WiF FE maps and not on this one. Wikipedia confirms that it is an obstacle to movement.

Edit : Here it is the area around New Orleans that was very hard to draw. Especially because of this lake on the NW hexside, that I first wanted to remove, but it is really large in reality.

Shouldn't some of Texas be desert?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, I did not understand quite well all what you said, especially with the river Hudson.
I did not understood wether you advised to remove the river hexside and put an all sea hexside (because you speak of a strait), or wether letting it as it is but just removing the graphic coastline.

So I tried to improve the drawing. I increased the size of the NYC strip of land (I forgot the name) and placed the icons better (as you said for NYC).

In the below graphic, for clarity, I show the map as it is with the coastline, and the same map as it is with the current CSV data I'm working on.

Comments ?

OK, I like how NYC looks now. The small island south of Newark is way too big though (I know it is Staten Island and the official HQ for Matrix Games, but even so, ...). It should be about 1/3 of its current size and placed in the NYC hex. Then the Newark hex can become almost entirely land. And the middle New Jersey hex can gain a bit of land to its north too.

Sorry for being so picky here, but I did live in New Jersey during my formative years: grade school in the middle hex, high school in the northern hex, and summers in the southern hex.

[Jeff Gilbert]

ORIGINAL: Mziln
While the mountains arround Little Rock, Arkansas should be the Ouachita (ou-ah-chi-ta or Wash-eh-taw) Mountains (I think).

The area around Little Rock, Arkansas would be the "Ozark Mountain Region."

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa. [:D]

[Froonp]

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa.

Great, I take it that you like the drawing [:D]

Edit 1 : Here is a close-up, can you see your house ?
Edit 2 : Please also note that Miami was added (1940 population warrants a city here). Is it ok with you all ?
Edit 3 : Also there is a Minor port in Miami (not shown on the picture because I forgot to draw it on the draft). Is it ok with you all ?

[Froonp]

OK, I like how NYC looks now. The small island south of Newark is way too big though (I know it is Staten Island and the official HQ for Matrix Games, but even so, ...). It should be about 1/3 of its current size and placed in the NYC hex. Then the Newark hex can become almost entirely land. And the middle New Jersey hex can gain a bit of land to its north too.

OK, I improved the drawing in this way.
But I also had another inspiration this morning :
As the Manhattan peninsula is quite tilted NE / SW, and as such the Hudson river is tilted the same, I wondered why not try a drawing taking advantage of the NW hexside to make it the Hudson, River.
Well, in the picture below are both ways of drawing New York, NYC1 to the left (which is my original idea) and NYC2 to the right (which is my today morning idea). Please tell me which is the better.

Please also note that in the NYC2 version, the hexside between New York and Newark became an All-Sea hexside, with a strait on it (which is an additional feature of NYC2, who can be changed if not appropriate).

Sorry for being so picky here, but I did live in New Jersey during my formative years: grade school in the middle hex, high school in the northern hex, and summers in the southern hex.

Thanks to all of us nit pickers, the game may be way better [:D].

[Froonp]

Shouldn't some of Texas be desert?

Here is a close-up on Texas, with the area west that was unseen on previous picture.
Note : On the MWiF map, the rivers names (Rio Grande, Pecos...) are written on the map, but I did not put them here.

[Froonp]

Here is an area (New Orleans) of the map that I am unsure of, and that could benefit from your comments.

The part that is tricky is the lake on the NW hexside of New Orleans, and the rail that must go across the Mississippi (W hexside) and then across again to be on the right side of the Mississippi.

Originaly, the rail went NW from New Orleans, but this put it on the Lake hexside, and I think that Railways ontop of Lake hexside may not exist in WiF FE. I do not know if MWiF accept them.

I also thought about putting a strait hexside on this lake, and leave the railway as it was.

What should be done ?

- Stay as is ?
- Lake hexside + Railway + Strait on the NW hexside ?

[Froonp]

Well, in the picture below are both ways of drawing New York, NYC1 to the left (which is my original idea) and NYC2 to the right (which is my today morning idea). Please tell me which is the better.

Well, I know I'm replying to myself, but, finaly I prefer NYC1 [:D]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

NYC1, (I guess).

As a historical note, in the American Revolutionary War the British attacked NYC frmo the sea by first landing on Long Island and then using that position to render defense of NYC untenable. Later in the war the Americans attacked by land from the north, coming down the Manhatten pennisula. Attacks from NE New Jersey due esat into New York are possible, because NJ extends quite far north of NYC proper. However, there is the Hudson River to be crossed and at the lower reaches, it is a formidable obstacle. Current down stream crossing points are the Lincoln and Hudson tunnels, the George Washington and Verrazano Narrows bridges, plus the Staten Island ferry.

So, NYC1 emphasizes the up stream land connections between the 2 states and makes it a 'ford', or river crossing. NYC2 emphasizes the down stream connections which are best modelled as a straits. To my eye that is a toss-up. But NYC1 gets the relationship between Manhatten and upper New York State a little better.

[Jeff Gilbert]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa.

Great, I take it that you like the drawing [:D]

Edit 1 : Here is a close-up, can you see your house ?
Edit 2 : Please also note that Miami was added (1940 population warrants a city here). Is it ok with you all ?
Edit 3 : Also there is a Minor port in Miami (not shown on the picture because I forgot to draw it on the draft). Is it ok with you all ?

Answer 1: Well, the top of the Tampa anchor is about on top of my house. Looks great. [:)]
Answer 2 & 3: Yes, Miami looks right to me and would warrent a minor port. IIRC the US Navy took over the Miami piers in early 1942 (February I think).

[Missouri_Rebel]

I think Jackson,MS should be on the map. Don't know if it affects the game but it is at a major crossroad in the South.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
I think Jackson,MS should be on the map. Don't know if it affects the game but it is at a major crossroad in the South.

I first though that MS meant Missouri, because of your screen name, but Jackson Missouri only have a 12,000 population nowadays, denying it the right to appear on the map.
So I looked for Jackson, Mississippi, and saw that it had a 70,000 population in 1944 (rising from 8,000 in 1900, and 184,000+ nowadays). This is not enought to be on the map (the limit is 100,000, exceptions are made for special cases). The crossroad you are talking about is clearly visible 4 hexes north fro New Orleans.