Purpose of Corps

[Paper Tiger]

Perhaps it should be 8 containers, at the immediate level below the army, So you could have 3 corps + 3 directly attached divisions + 2 directly attached brigades. Then you could limit each corps to 3 divisions so you would get 9 divisions in your three corps plus in this example 3 directly attached = 12 divisions. You could pack these divisions any way you want up to the maximum of X brigades per army and Y per Corps.
Personnally I would prefer to see 3 or 4 containers in an Army with 3 or 4 in a Corps and 4 or 5 in a division, and allow 1 or 2 brigades in a Corps and perhaps 3 in an army in addition to the sub containers.
I would replace the starting Armies in most cases with Corps leaving only 1 Army of the Potomac for the Union and giving it 3 Corps
You want more armies and corps build them.
Similar situation for the South Mostly Corps rather than Armies but give the south it's bigger divisions and bigger brigades.
Hey I don't know ACW history that well I'm not American but it seems to me mostly the "Armies" were roughly a Decent Corps size. 

[elmo3]

Obviously OOB's changed throughout the war but for discussion purposes here are rough OOB's for Antietam and Gettysburg:

Antietam

ANV 45,000 men
First Corps (5 divisions with 21 brigades); reserve arty at corps level
Second Corps (4 divisions with 18 brigades); arty attached to divisions
Cavalry Corps (not sure of size)
Army level reserve arty (not sure of size)

AOP 87,000 men
I Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
II Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
V Coprs (3 divisions with 8 brigades)
VI Corps (3 divisions with 9 brigades)
IX Corps (4 divisions with 8 brigades)
XII Corps (2 Inf divisions with 5 brigades and 1 Cav division with 5 brigades)

Looking at the manual, pg 56 and working our way up the organizations we see:

USA divisions can contain 4 brigades and CSA 5. At Antietam most USA divisions had 3 brigades except for Pleasonton's Cavalry Div that had 5. Close enough. The CSA divisions averaged about 4 brigades which is within the game limits.

Both sides corps can have 8 units with no more than 3 USA divisions and 4 CSA divisions. For the USA at Antietam only the IX Corps violates the division limit. The CSA First Corps had 5 divisions so that is over the game limit as well. Not bad though.

In the game both armies can have 8 units attached with the CSA getting one more corps (5) than the USA. The AOP really violates the game limits with 6 corps. The ANV only has 3 corps, 4 if we assume Pendleton's arty reserve was a corps.

So not bad overall with a few exceptions.

Gettysburg

ANV 72,000 men
First Corps (3 divisions with 11 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Second Corps (3 divisions with 13 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Third Corps (3 divisions with 13 brigades; and an arty reserve)
Stuart's Cavalry Div (6 brigades - 2 not present); and a horse arty unit)
Imboden's Command (cavalry)

AOP 94,000 men
I Corps (3 divisions with 7 brigades)
II Corps (3 divisions with 10 brigades)
III Corps (3 divisions; one not present with 6 brigades present)
V Corps (3 divisions with 8 brigades)
VI Corps (3 divisions with 7 brigades)
XI Corps (3 divisions with 6 brigades)
XII Corps (2 divisions with 6 brigades)
Cavalry Corps (3 divisions with 8 brigades and horse arty)
Arty Reserve (5 brigades)

Clearly the AOP violates the game limits at the Army level but other than that is looks pretty good. The ANV is within game limits at all levels if we don't count Stuart's two missing brigades.


So IMO the game limits do a pretty good job allowing people to build armies and lower organizations that were being built during the war. The exception in both cases is the number of USA corps that were historically in an army. Not sure if the designers want to reconsider this or not. It is possible that these two battles were the only cases where real life USA armies violated the game limits.

[Paper Tiger]

OK so if you as suggested make it a max of 8 containers DIRECTLY beneath the army you get
Antietnam
ANV 3 corps + 1 attachment (brigade) = 4 total 40-45? brigades
AoP 6 corps = 6  total 54 brigades
 
Gettysburg
ANV  3 corps + 2 Divisions? = 5 total 43 brigades?
AoP 8 corps + 1 Div = 9 total 63 brigades
 
Well it suggests that either the Union armies should be bigger or 2+ Union Armies were involved. To me I would still say that perhaps it would be better to have fewer armies and more Corps and to allow nested divisions not to count against maximum containers in an army, so a division does not count against the maximum number of containers for an army if it is nested within a corps.
 
Perhaps a Logistics upgrade or series of them allowing larger numbers of brigades within an army and reliant on a minimum number of Academies you need to get a 5 star general, and a second level increasing it further once you have 2x5star generals but again requiring the Logistics upgrade.

[Paper Tiger]

Perhaps at this point you could also make the number of containers in an army part of the upgrade path, 4/6/8 containers?

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

...

To me I would still say that perhaps it would be better to have fewer armies and more Corps and to allow nested divisions not to count against maximum containers in an army, so a division does not count against the maximum number of containers for an army if it is nested within a corps.

...

Hold on now. [:)] Are you saying that divisions within a corps count against the 8 unit max for an army now?! That makes no sense. I've never looked that closely at it but that can't be right. I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

Edited for clarity

[Paper Tiger]

I think that is how it stands at the moment, not how it should stand.
But I could be wrong never yet built many corps, as I can't see the need at the moment.

[elmo3]

In this pic from Gil's AAR I count 9 divisions in the ANV so I think you are musinderstanding how the containers work. The way I read the manual none of these divisions count against the 8 unit limit for the army as all are within a corps.

[Paper Tiger]

OK my bad. Still with max of 5 brigades to a division and max of 8 containers to an Army not a lot of reason to have corps as well as divisions.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

OK my bad. Still with max of 5 brigades to a division and max of 8 containers to an Army not a lot of reason to have corps as well as divisions.

Without any corps a CSA army could have 40 brigades (8 divisions of 5 brigades each). With 5 Corps plus 3 directly attached divisions, assuming each unit is maxed out, the same army could theoretically have 135 brigades.

There are two other advantages of corps that have been mentioned already. They can be used as maneuver elements and pack a lot more punch than a division. They can be commanded by 3 star generals so if you have good 3 star generals it makes more sense to have them commanding a corps than a division.

Not trying to sell you on using corps, just pointing out some of the advantages.

[Paper Tiger]

cept there is a maximum number of brigades to an army as well and it works out roughly the same as having the corps maxed out on divisions only.
Also you could use could use corps and or divisions but with a corps being able to hold near as much as an army what is the point of having 3 wings of AoP all of Army size? When a corps can hold 18 brigades? at 3k =54k that is as big as most armies.
So say you have a couple of corps out there acting as minnie armies and max your armies out on divisions alone. Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 
 
 
 

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger
Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 

I think (not positive though) by having a corp, a unit can effectively roll four times for rally assuming it has all four levels of command present.

Once for a single star brigade commander attached directly to the unit, once for its two star division commander, once for its three star corp commander and finally once for its four star army commander.

So having the proper organization for an army has a great effect on the staying power of units in a battle since they are much more likely to rally after being broke.

Of course if this isn't how it works than I have no idea if the extra level of leadership works except that it possibly gives an extra supply wagon in battle due to the corps command staff.

Also it might be possible that a corps command staff ratings override those of a lower level HQ (thus stuffing lousy divisions into said corp enhances their abilities), but the manual doesn’t explain these kinds of leadership issues very well.

Jim

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger

cept there is a maximum number of brigades to an army as well and it works out roughly the same as having the corps maxed out on divisions only.

I wasn't aware of that and don't see it in 2.2.5 Group Limits. What is that number and where is it in the manual?

Edit - OK I see the limits now, 42 for a CSA Army and 35 for a USA Army?! As pointed out above with the real armies I detailed, those limits are too low and should be reconsidered IMO.

Also you could use could use corps and or divisions but with a corps being able to hold near as much as an army what is the point of having 3 wings of AoP all of Army size? When a corps can hold 18 brigades? at 3k =54k that is as big as most armies.
So say you have a couple of corps out there acting as minnie armies and max your armies out on divisions alone. Still at the same number of maximum brigades per army or there abouts. How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy? 

I'm not arguing one grand army is better than two corps and a small army.

You said:

... But I could be wrong never yet built many corps, as I can't see the need at the moment.

That and what sounded like your misunderstanding of how many brigades you could have in an army of divisions vs and army of corps led me to reply. I was just pointing out some reasons for having corps both within an army and outside of an army. A lot depends on the situation in the game at the time as to how best to organize your forces.

[elmo3]

FWIW I added a request to the wish list to raise the number of brigades either side can have in an Army to better reflect history and/or make the number moddable by players.

I also made a note in the manual errata thread that the number of brigades each side can have per division on page 36 is contradicted on page 56.

[Kung Karl]

ORIGINAL: Paper Tiger
How does it benefit you to re-organise units into a hierarchy?

Well, I do not know how it works in the game but I think that if it doesn't realy add anything to have corps it should penalise you hardley not to have them.

I mean a single general like LEE can't be the direct commander of all brigades in ANV! That would not be possible IRL. You need to have an organisation to be able to handle large size armies. The game must reflect that in some way. If it doesn't and you don't need to use corps etc then the game mechanics are WAY off!

[Twotribes]

It is easy enough to change the allowable brigades, the problem I see is there is no REAL limit on Divisions in Corps or Corps in Armies. Why the game claims there is is beyond me.

I changed the numbers allowed to reflect what the game claims is the limits. The problem being since it doesnt really care how many Divisions or Corps you have you can end up beating the listed limits in the manual.

Someone check my math....

A union Army is supposed to be able to have 8 "units" with a maximum of 4 Corps. A Corps in the Union is allowed to also have 8 units with a maximum of 3 Divisions. A division is supposed to have a maximum in the Union army of 5 ( not 4) brigades. Since Brigades determine size a Corps maximum brigade count in the Union would be 3 division at 5 brigades equals 15 brigades plus 5 more brigades for a total of 20 brigades in a Corp.

An Army is allowed 4 Corps and 4 Divisions max that would be 4 at 20 for 80 and 4 at 5 for 20 more equals 100 brigades. You can easily change this to be fact in game. Of course then your not compatible for PBEM with anyone on normal game. And you can in fact have as many sub containers as you want so long as brigade count isnt exceeded.

I would appreciate to know if it is possible to limit containers to the max number of containers or if I just have to make the brigade changes as listed....

This is NO game breaker. But the rules should be changed to read what the game engine ACTUALLY allows. Aesthitics and uniformity of rules.

[chris0827]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

It is easy enough to change the allowable brigades, the problem I see is there is no REAL limit on Divisions in Corps or Corps in Armies. Why the game claims there is is beyond me.

I changed the numbers allowed to reflect what the game claims is the limits. The problem being since it doesnt really care how many Divisions or Corps you have you can end up beating the listed limits in the manual.

Someone check my math....

A union Army is supposed to be able to have 8 "units" with a maximum of 4 Corps. A Corps in the Union is allowed to also have 8 units with a maximum of 3 Divisions. A division is supposed to have a maximum in the Union army of 5 ( not 4) brigades. Since Brigades determine size a Corps maximum brigade count in the Union would be 3 division at 5 brigades equals 15 brigades plus 5 more brigades for a total of 20 brigades in a Corp.

An Army is allowed 4 Corps and 4 Divisions max that would be 4 at 20 for 80 and 4 at 5 for 20 more equals 100 brigades. You can easily change this to be fact in game. Of course then your not compatible for PBEM with anyone on normal game. And you can in fact have as many sub containers as you want so long as brigade count isnt exceeded.

I would appreciate to know if it is possible to limit containers to the max number of containers or if I just have to make the brigade changes as listed....

This is NO game breaker. But the rules should be changed to read what the game engine ACTUALLY allows. Aesthitics and uniformity of rules.

The AcwPlayers file shows the limits per container. A union army can have a maximum of 35 brigades. a corps 15, a division 5. Confederate armies can have a max of 42 brigades, a corps 18, a division 6. All numbers that need to be changed in my opinion.

[Twotribes]

I am aware of this, my point being in the rules it states a Corps can only have 3 division containers for the Union out of a total of 8 units and that an Army can have 4 Corps out of a total of 8 units.

My request being to change the engine to limit containers inside Containers , OR more likely remove the reference to Container limits inside other Containers.

[chris0827]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

I am aware of this, my point being in the rules it states a Corps can only have 3 division containers for the Union out of a total of 8 units and that an Army can have 4 Corps out of a total of 8 units.

My request being to change the engine to limit containers inside Containers , OR more likely remove the reference to Container limits inside other Containers.

I'm not sure where you're going. Do you want no limits on the number of containers within another container? I think there needs to be some limits to the size of an army but as the game stand now the union can't come close to historical size armies.

[Twotribes]

There is NO limit on containers inside another container now. The ONLY limit being the number of brigades allowed. Try it out, it should work.... a Union corps is supposed to only have 3 divisions max, make 5 divisions with one brigade each and see if they can all join the same corps.

[chris0827]

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

There is NO limit on containers inside another container now. The ONLY limit being the number of brigades allowed. Try it out, it should work.... a Union corps is supposed to only have 3 divisions max, make 5 divisions with one brigade each and see if they can all join the same corps.

Ok. I get what you are saying. They are assuming people will fill up a division with 5 brigades when they say a corps can only have 3 divisions. If you have fewer brigades per division then you can have more divisions.