Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

From the creators of Crown of Glory come an epic tale of North Vs. South. By combining area movement on the grand scale with optional hex based tactical battles when they occur, Forge of Freedom provides something for every strategy gamer. Control economic development, political development with governers and foreign nations, and use your military to win the bloodiest war in US history.

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Joram
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Joram »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Well after spending some time with this game I’ve come to the conclusion that this is really just a strategy game with a Civil War theme overlaying it and not much of an historical wargame at all.

So many things are off from an historical point of view that it really can’t be called a wargame in my view anymore, thus I’ve decided not to make strong historical arguments for major changes in the forums as I would if I thought there was any hope of getting it done right.

AGEOD’s new Civil War title will probably be much better suited to those of us who prefer that the game gets the history aspect right first and then develops game models to make playing out that history a challenging prospect in a game.

...


Hilarious. I used to be a rabid WWIIOL fan and said almost the exact same thing (except for the AGEOD piece of course). In that game that sacrificed nearly all historical accuracy to make play balance. I've come to accept that and could accept it here if I ever decide to buy it. Regardless, I will present the same solution here as I did way back when I played WWIIOL.

You don't have to sacrifice historical accuracy as long as you have sufficient victory conditions. Yes, maybe the South is supposed to lose but as long as the southern player can do better than his historical counterpart, then that player has won! It's pretty simple really. However, I do realize this kind of balancing appeals to more of the grognards and less to the people without any qualms around historical accuracy.

I too am looking forward to the AGEOD version but I wouldn't hold your breath as they will most certainly have to sacrifice some accuracy for playsake too. It's the only way to get a broader audience as us "purists" are a dying breed.

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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by elmo3 »

ORIGINAL: Joram

...

You don't have to sacrifice historical accuracy as long as you have sufficient victory conditions. Yes, maybe the South is supposed to lose but as long as the southern player can do better than his historical counterpart, then that player has won! It's pretty simple really...

From the rules:

"A nation wins the game when it has a total of 24 victory points, or it has 32 more Victory points than the other nation."

Can we assume from the victory conditions above that in April of 1865 the USA got the winning number of points, and that neither side reached those numbers earlier in the war? An interesting exercise would be to take the victory points that each side can earn and apply them to history to see if that is indeed what happened. I'll leave that exercise to someone more ambitious than I! [:D]
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Graycompany
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

ORIGINAL: tc237

Thank you JChastain, for starting this thread.



One suggestion I would make:
It seems the data .txt files are very easy to change, if we can get a basic SDK/modders guide on how some of the files work, the ACW "grogs" can make the perfectly accurate game they want. And all will be right in the universe.


well, for universe to be right, I still think Pauley Shore would have to be stopped from making any more movies[8|]
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Joram »

ORIGINAL: elmo3
ORIGINAL: Joram

...

You don't have to sacrifice historical accuracy as long as you have sufficient victory conditions. Yes, maybe the South is supposed to lose but as long as the southern player can do better than his historical counterpart, then that player has won! It's pretty simple really...

From the rules:

"A nation wins the game when it has a total of 24 victory points, or it has 32 more Victory points than the other nation."

Can we assume from the victory conditions above that in April of 1865 the USA got the winning number of points, and that neither side reached those numbers earlier in the war? An interesting exercise would be to take the victory points that each side can earn and apply them to history to see if that is indeed what happened. I'll leave that exercise to someone more ambitious than I! [:D]


Actually, that's an excellent idea! But easy for me to say as I don't have the game yet. :)
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by jimwinsor »

A couple points to add:
 
1) Talking with Eric (and I think he mentioned this publically elsewhere too) there is a "features patch" for FoF on the drawing board, which will invariably move the game in the direction of greater depth and realism.  As I understand, one of the big customer complaints against CoG was that it was too much, all at once,for the casual gamer. So this initial game (for casual gamers) + later features patch (for grognards) was kinda decided as the way to go from the start.  It's an attempt at making the game have as broad an appeal as humanly possible.
 
So, for those you realism favorers (btw I am one of you) take heart; and yes, pls do keep commenting on the issue AND making concrete change suggestions for the features patch.
 
2) The game is extremely mod friendly.  I was able to cobble up the July 1861 scenario in a few days after becoming a playtester, just by poking around the various .txt files in Excel.  I got the oob data from various historical sources, and put it together from there.  It was not that difficult IMO.  It's pretty amazing the number of things that can be tinkered with in this game to your liking, once you get the hang of it.  A "historical mod" is quite do-able.
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Gil R.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Gil R. »

A few things to respond to... (Actually, there are lots, but I'll limit myself.)

As has been noted multiple times, we on the development team are completely open to any suggestions that will make the game more historically accurate. At the time of release we knew that it was imperfect in certain respects, but that the input of all of you would enable us to make tweaks and significant changes in future patches. Our goal was to get out a fun, playable game that was completely stable. (And other than those two critical bugs that were not discovered in playtesting, we appear to have done that.)

At WCS we believe in a historicity-fun matrix, i.e. an imaginary graph that shows that if one makes a game too historical it becomes less fun, and if it's too fun it almost certainly is less accurate. We've tried to strike a good balance, but will welcome suggestions on improvements.

Also, as one of you rightly pointed out, our files are easily modded, so anyone who wants to change the purchase prices of units or weapons, the effectiviness of particular guns, the ratings of generals, the military or economic strength of one or both sides at the beginning of the game, etc. etc. etc. can do so. In fact, we encourage toying around with this -- perhaps you'll hit on something that works well and can be shared with the rest of us.

Finally, I'd note that all of the complaints about ahistoricity are focused on the strategic game. Remember, an enormous area of this game (just see how many manual pages are devoted to it!) is the detailed battle simulation, where historicity has been a vital objective in terms of unit capabilities, formations, weapons' ranges, terrain, weather effects, etc.

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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Jonathan Palfrey »

ORIGINAL: jchastain
While there is merit to your comments, I would say that any game system sacrifices some degree of accuracy in order to achieve a degree of simplicity. Were any game to be entirely accurate, it would have to model everything. As you begin excluding complexities, it necessarily alters the dynamics.

But you don't need to add complexity and detail in order to be reasonably historical. For me, the art of wargame design is to represent a historical situation reasonably well in a simple way. Adding detail doesn't make the situation easier to represent; it probably makes it more difficult.
ORIGINAL: jchastain
If money and resources cannot buy significant advantages, then why play the economic game at all?

All I'm saying that that money and resources should be able to buy in the game military advantages of the size that they were able to buy in reality, no more and no less. If you think that makes the economic side of the game not worth playing, well then, it could be left out of the game. I don't mind.
ORIGINAL: jchastain
Or since the USA had an advantage in materials, do you think buying weapons for each brigade isn't enough and the player should have to buy them boots and clothes as well? That might have some aspects of realism, but it sounds like a lot of micromanagement that would not be much fun to me.

No, no, no! The game is already too complicated. I'm not asking for further levels of detail. I'm just saying that I'd like the levels of detail it has to be somewhat aligned with reality.
ORIGINAL: jchastain
But again, criticism absent suggestions get us no where. I would respectfully suggest that you make suggestions for how to make the game better.

We're talking about fundamental design here. I don't think I can redesign the game from scratch, nor do I think Western Civ would be much interested if I tried it.
ORIGINAL: jchastain
If you just believe the game isn't accurate enough for you and you can't think of how to make it better, then all I can say is fine then you should play something else.

I may end up doing that. But as there isn't any other Civil War game around at the moment, I'll at least spend a while giving it a try. Work permitting...

I bought the game as a game of the American Civil War, 1861-1865. If that's not really what it represents, I'm disappointed. Whisky is not the same as "whisky flavour".
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Jonathan Palfrey »

Thanks for your comments.
ORIGINAL: Gil R.
At WCS we believe in a historicity-fun matrix, i.e. an imaginary graph that shows that if one makes a game too historical it becomes less fun, and if it's too fun it almost certainly is less accurate.

Oh horror. I don't agree with that at all! You seem to be equating "historical" with "more detail". I'd like less detail in the game, not more (within reason), but whatever details it has should be reasonably aligned with historical parameters, because it's supposed to be a game of a historical event. Isn't it?

It's hard to put over the right emotional tone in print. Please note I'm not shouting at you. Just respectfully disagreeing.
ORIGINAL: Gil R.
Finally, I'd note that all of the complaints about ahistoricity are focused on the strategic game. Remember, an enormous area of this game (just see how many manual pages are devoted to it!) is the detailed battle simulation, where historicity has been a vital objective in terms of unit capabilities, formations, weapons' ranges, terrain, weather effects, etc.

But there doesn't seem a lot of point to me in getting the tactical side right if the strategical side is wrong. Except, I suppose, for people whose main interest is in tactics. My interest is in strategy.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by mlees »

One of the issues as stated by the OP was that there appears to be a lack of "action" by the players.
While a defensive bonus makes sense historically and works well as a game mechanism in combination with the economic/quality balancing, the downside is that it tends to discourage offensiveness in general. If overwhelming force is required to win, then no one will attack until they can assemble overwhelming force – and that makes the game bog down.

I guess most players are more conservative, building up a superiority in power before attacking.

In real life, in many cases, political considerations forced the politicians to demand offensive action before the Generals felt they were ready.

Is it possible to cobble up a routine that penalizes a player who does not fight? A governer loyalty hit, loss of victory points, British/French/Other diplomatic hits?

Each player has an "Aggressiveness" point pool. Small fights, entering an empty enemy province, and seiges generate a few "aggression" points. Engaging in a battle with/against X number of enemy brigades, Naval fights (which were more "headline" grabbing...) earn you a few more. These "agression" points go into a pool. The pool will decay over time. (The pools in the very first turn of a game will have 0 points, so the first turn needs to be immune from penalties...)

A pool of zero (modified by year? By 1865, the Union needs to be Aggressive with a capital "A"...) causes some penalties to be suffered.

A player initiates fights by moving into a province containing an enemy force/fort, and engaging it. (The player must be able to be considered conducting an offensive in friendly territory, when repulsing an enemy invasion/incursion.) As it is, the computer generates the turns course of action through initiative rolls, I think. Therefore, you might be able to figure out what roll was used to determine who started a fight in a given area, and earns credit for that.

Thoughts?
That said i would like to see raiders added as that may give the CSA a naval element where they can raid like partisans or raiders do on land, though just destroy resources of the union. That would make the CSA player have a naval component to manage (other than blockade runners) while the Union would have to invest in a navy to try to hunt down these privateers.

One addtional scource of income (similar to the CSA's ability to get blockade runner goods) would be these raiders.

There is a given pool of trade (the Commerce pool) out there somewhere, up for grabs. By default, it goes to the Union. The CSA gets some with (successful) raiders. The Union doesn't seem to be able to do much about the blockade runners, but Commerce raiders should be closer to regular ships, where they can be seen on the map, and ships vectored to intercept them. The CSA sets them to operate in various coastal waters (bonus to rewards for operating off the north eastern USA, less so off the coast of Texas).

Raiders can fight as regular ships (and if they win, they gain a bonus to diplomacy rolls, a percentage of plunder from the Commerce pool, victory points). If the Raiders end up in an empty coastal province, they earn some plunder only.

What's in the pool? Money? Horses? I guess we can use the blockade runners reward system to determine how much is in the pool...

The difference between blockade runners and commerce raiders:

Blockade runners are gaining trade from a seperate pool for the CSA, and are near uninterceptable. Built for speed, not combat.

Commerce raiders are trying to hurt the Union's trade, and earn prestige (and diplomatic recognition) for the CSA. Better able to stand up to Union warships than the blockade runners, but they are still not as strong as a full fledged warship. (Max out the potential weapon upgrades to be less than the regualr warships can do.)

Thoughts?
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

ORIGINAL: mlees

One of the issues as stated by the OP was that there appears to be a lack of "action" by the players.


I guess most players are more conservative, building up a superiority in power before attacking.

In real life, in many cases, political considerations forced the politicians to demand offensive action before the Generals felt they were ready.

Is it possible to cobble up a routine that penalizes a player who does not fight? A governer loyalty hit, loss of victory points, British/French/Other diplomatic hits?

Each player has an "Aggressiveness" point pool. Small fights, entering an empty enemy province, and seiges generate a few "aggression" points, engaging in a battle with/against X number of enemy brigades, Naval fights (which were more "headline" grabbing...) earn you a few more. These "agression" points go into a pool. The pool will decay over time. (The pools in the very first turn of a game will have 0 points, so the first turn needs to be immune from penalties...)

A pool of zero (modified by year? By 1865, the Union needs to be Aggressive with a capital A...) causes some penalties to be suffered.

A player initiates fights by moving into a province containing an enemy force/fort, and engaging it. (The player must be able to be considered conducting an offensive in friendly territory, when repulsing an enemy invasion/incursion.) As it is, the computer generates the turns course of action through initiative rolls, I think. Therefore, you might be able to figure out what roll was used to determine who started a fight in a given area, and earns credit for that.

Thoughts?


I think this would be helpful, although perhaps Victory Point Loses for not fighting/pursing the war might be an option. Seems to me that Lincoln was often prodding his Generals to move forward and press the War. Some players will see the folly in pressing when not ready, something that the Union Goverment wanted, and perhaps using VP (negative) for not pressing would force the North to fight, which would have the affect of making both sides fight when not ready, something that happned to both sides during the war.

Well done Mlees!.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by mlees »

I didn't want my "Aggressiveness" pool idea to only apply to the Union. (Although, historically, the Union did seem to be more pressed for action. The CSA would win by default if the Union never launched an attack...)

I forget why Lee needed to go into Pennsylvania (the CSA thought that they needed a European diplomacy boost?), but I don't think he launched that campaign on his own accord...

And if the Union player is asked to swallow the idea of suffering from a penalty that the CSA player never has to worry about, it would leave a little bit of a bad after taste...

This "Agressiveness" requirement should be modified by the difficulty setting, too.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

Well alot of people think he came north for Shoes, I wonder if they had BOGO back then?[8|]
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

Im not sure the CSA would need to suffer a penalty. The South would be happy if the North left them alone, I think you touched on it when you say the South should win by default.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by mlees »

That would be a victory point "hit" then. The CSA suffers less of a hit than the Union does, so that there is a slow slide towards CSA victory if the Union just sits back and fortifies Washington for a year... (?)

Basically, I am concerned about a fair and balanced approach. [:'(]
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: Graycompany

Im not sure the CSA would need to suffer a penalty. The South would be happy if the North left them alone, I think you touched on it when you say the South should win by default.


Agreed..., which is the whole point of the "did they make the South's economy too strong, or the Union's too week" discussion. The South can "win" simply by not "losing"; but the Union has to pretty much conquer and garrison the Confederacy to triumph. A much more arduous task, and requiring greater resources to accomplish. I'm not going to go farther until I've finished a few games..., but that's one of the big questions looking for an answer right now....
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

Yes, I think that would work. Then you would have the Normal VP's for winning and losing and to controling enemy provinces. The North would then be forced to (or Suffer the -VP's) press the war, and if they lose battles (which often happned early) they would have double trouble, -VP's and National Will. The South should only suffer -VP's for having territory taken and then no attempt to reclaim it.(which the game may model now without tinkering) This would give the South a chance to force a surrender and win the Game by NW or VP's without having to give them Bonus's that the game does now for play balance.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

I think so to mike. I started one as the North and I am having alot of trouble just bringing the Army up to what was done IRL. I seem to lack supply and money, and if I alter how much supply I dole out, I lack money for the troops that I get.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Twotribes »

One can hardly deny that historic realities were thrown out the window for play balance here. All one has to do is compare the economies, the starting navies, the HUGE disaster that disease is on any army in an enemy province, the limits placed on raising troops ( for both sides)

Does this play balance at the expense of historical accuracy effect whether the game is a good one? Well yes if you were expecting a historical simulation, but as a game, I have to say I enjoy playing it. Just wish it were really about the Civil War and the advantages and disadvantages each side had.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Graycompany »

Couldn't agree more, I really Like the game, and I am sure I will be up to late playing it. I would like it to be a more historic simulation ( the tactical battles are well done) on a strategic level, and I think as matrix has done in the past they will make patches or allow modding, which for me is money well spent on their games.
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RE: Game Balance & Historical Accuracy

Post by Jonathan Palfrey »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

One can hardly deny that historic realities were thrown out the window for play balance here. All one has to do is compare the economies, the starting navies, the HUGE disaster that disease is on any army in an enemy province, the limits placed on raising troops ( for both sides)

Does this play balance at the expense of historical accuracy effect whether the game is a good one? Well yes if you were expecting a historical simulation, but as a game, I have to say I enjoy playing it. Just wish it were really about the Civil War and the advantages and disadvantages each side had.

I'm happy to say that for once I completely agree with you. Although it's not necessary to destroy historical accuracy to get play balance. You could make a historically accurate game with adjustable handicaps for each side (which this game has anyway), and let the players handicap one side or the other when and if they want to.

The war in reality was unbalanced, but not hopelessly unbalanced. The CSA was doing well at times. It lasted for four years. That's not a walkover.
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