Your opinion on the beta patch 3.7.3

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Dimitris
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi All,

I wonder how many potential buyers have been scared off by all the the confusion.

Lots of discussion of databases by those in the know, leaving others confused.

Questions not clearly answered. For instance. Will existing scenarios work with the new patch. Thats a yes or no.

Multiplayer. Oops, forget that, don't want to start a war. Wait a minute.................this IS a wargame!!

And thats just obvious issues. I like the game but I will stick to the package as bought until some grand chef appears, hopefully ending the reign of what seems like too many cooks with their fingers in the promising, but overly fussed over, aquatic stew. ( hopefully I will not be shot.................that is by 2 weapons systems when there should only be one) All in fun. So fanboys and sonorbouys please keep your distance!!!

Regards John

You should have been around in the Falcon 4 era [:D]
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RE: Your opinion on the beta patch 3.7.3

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: jpkoester1

26. Here is the deal about strike package targeting problems:
Basically AI units often used to get slaughtered while ingressing towards their intended target (for example strike aircraft flying towards their target (lets say a hanger) flying right over a SAM-site and all getting shot down in the process). The AI a bit dumb that way so Darrel made it smarter.

Strike packages can now determine if something in their way to the target is a threat to them and will then automatically engage those threats as well. I do see the problem this causes for those pre-determined-outcome tricks used for some scenarios. For example in Fighting withdrawal the LHA is supposed to be sunk at the beginning but the new smarter AI detectes a big threat close to the LHA (a CG and a CVN) and engages those first

I am sorry that this change wasn't properly documented but do hope that this at least explains where the problems are coming from. I have opened a feature request for a checkbox in the mission editor that will allow this 'self defense' to be turned off, but am not sure that it will make it into this release.

Thanks for listening,
JP

I seriously doubt this is a very good solution... the AI can no longer be programmed to go after a single/group of HVU(s). In fact, the AI will fire on anything that moves, and it is plain impossible to get it to destroy an aircraft carrier or a couple of merchants unless you give the AI so many missiles that it will wipe the map clean in a single strike.

Any good scenario designer can program the AI to deal with those other threats you mention without this weird "bugfix". So I'm not really sure what the AGSI guys were thinking when they decided to spend time and money on a "fix" that ruins old functionality that worked just fine.
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ComDev
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: z1812

And thats just obvious issues. I like the game but I will stick to the package as bought until some grand chef appears, hopefully ending the reign of what seems like too many cooks with their fingers in the promising, but overly fussed over, aquatic stew. ( hopefully I will not be shot.................that is by 2 weapons systems when there should only be one) All in fun. So fanboys and sonorbouys please keep your distance!!!

If you have Harpoon 3.6.2 then stick to that version. It is fast, stable as a rock, and has no serious bugs in it.

None of the many 3.7.x patches have been found to run in a satisfactory manner.
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by z1812 »

Hi Emsoy,

Thanks for the advice. However I bought 3.70. So I will stay with that until a consensus is reached about " the patch".
That is unless I can patch backwards.........................LOL.

Regards John
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by FreekS »

Ragnar wrote
I seriously doubt this is a very good solution... the AI can no longer be programmed to go after a single/group of HVU(s). In fact, the AI will fire on anything that moves, and it is plain impossible to get it to destroy an aircraft carrier or a couple of merchants unless you give the AI so many missiles that it will wipe the map clean in a single strike.

Any good scenario designer can program the AI to deal with those other threats you mention without this weird "bugfix". So I'm not really sure what the AGSI guys were thinking when they decided to spend time and money on a "fix" that ruins old functionality that worked just fine.



Gentlemen,

I have to agree with Ragnar on the specific above issue.
I've been testplaying 3.7.3 most of the past holidays.

Any strike mission with a specific target is now broken. As an example in 2FR-NL (matchplay series) an AI controlled sub is on delayed substrike mission aimed at Charles De Gaulle. The plotted function is used to get it in the path of the CVBG. In 3.6. the sub holds fire untill the CV is in range and has a good chance of killing it if the player is not using his sonars and helo's properly. In 3.7.3 it shoots at the first escort in outer screen.

An other example is Unifil, where a battery of Iranian SSMs are aimed at Israeli runways. If Israeli player attacks Iran, then the battery fires (Iran becomes hostile) and the runways-only are hit (in 3.6). In 3.7.3. the SSMs are hitting all units in the airbase.

The specific shipstrike and specific groundstrike missions are critical functionality whereby the designer can make the scen tougher and the AI smarter. The fact it is not present in 3.7.3 means a LOT of scens (most of my 30 or so and those of many other designers) would need redesign (which is unlikely to happen) and the AI in those scens becomes weaker.

Freek
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by FreekS »

Dale, yes I know that trick and used it in my second example (Iranian SSM missions against Israeli airbases were created while in the SE Iran was hostile to Israel, then switched to neutral). That 'trick' still works but is unrelated to the situation I describe above.

However the SPECIFIC targets that the SSMs had (the runways) were ignored and the SSMs select their own targets which in this case are all airbase facilities. It is this features of 3.6 (the designer could reliably assign specific targets for strike missions) that I am now missing badly in 3.7.3. It affects airplane strike missions, torpedo's and SSMs.

I'll be happy to make a simple demo scenario that can be run in 3.6 and 3.7.3 SE to show the difference.

Freek
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by Bucks »

Freek,

If you fire non-data linked missiles, when the seeker switches on it will select the target with the largest radar return within it's sensor arc. That's what would happen in reality.

Check your RCS values in the database concerned for the facilities that are within the seeker's range and arc when it switches on. It may be that the underlying concept of the scenario is no longer functional because we have moved the game toward greater realism.

For instance if the target you are going after is the smallest of the group it is within, then you may simply have to get lucky, or if you can BOL the missiles set the activation point at the building's "front door", that way when it switches on it will have a nice fat juicy target to fly into. Another way is simply wipe the map of everything until there's nothing left but what you're after.

Basically it comes down to this. If you fire non-DLed missiles at specific targets within a group of targets you are taking your chances with any attack successfully removing the target you intended.

Cheers

Darren Buckley
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Flankerk
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by Flankerk »

The problem isn't to do with RCS though, its that the AI will no longer fire at the target it was asked to do.
Effectively the planes are taking off with a specific strike mission and more or less ignoring their orders.
If it is behaviour that can be switched on or off that'd be ideal.
It seems pretty clear to me that all parties are unhappy with the present behaviour.
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Bucks
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by Bucks »

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

The problem isn't to do with RCS though, its that the AI will no longer fire at the target it was asked to do.
Effectively the planes are taking off with a specific strike mission and more or less ignoring their orders.
If it is behaviour that can be switched on or off that'd be ideal.
It seems pretty clear to me that all parties are unhappy with the present behaviour.

Flanker, look at the above and then what you said below. Seems to me like they are mutually exclusive? I mean at first you describe a situation where the missiles don't select the target you intended them to, then you say they don't fire at all!!

Mate it's either one or the other.

Not they don't fire and then hit the wrong target - Impossible
OR
They fire and hit the wrong target?

Which is it?

The problem isn't to do with RCS though, its that the AI will no longer fire at the target it was asked to do.

I am happy to look at your scen and the relevant database and I'll attempt to find your problem. I have already stated twice that I had similar issues that were fixed by correct database and/or scen adjustments.

Cheers

Darren Buckley
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by Flankerk »

Unless I am mistaken, pretty much all of us know the problem with the weapons allocation and can readily reproduce it? If I understand correctly it has been reported a number of times and all parties are agreed that it is not the desired behaviour.
 
I just created a scenario in DB2000. I allocated an Oscar II to a strike mission versus a Wisconsin. The Wisconsin had an escort of a Vincennes and a Ticonderoga. The Oscar came to shallow depth and immediately opened fire, however twelve missiles were aimed at the Vincennes, twelve were fired at the Wisconsin and none were aimed at the Ticonderoga.
 
The end result was that the scenario as such behaved completely differently from how it should, and completely differently from how it operated in 3.6.
As a result while we would want to convert to 3.7 we are unable to do so. No-one wants a work round solution to stop this behaviour, they want the scenario to behave as was intended.
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by mikmykWS »

Dale when you guys get a chance can you put this in the manual or wiki somewhere. A description on the a value would be great.

In terms of what you've written (which was great btw) I have a couple of questions?

I have one aircraft assigned to strike a building. There is an AAA Site next to it (which is ID'd and marked hostile).

If the plane is on a strike mission, has the correct loadouts will it hit the AAA site before hitting the building because the AAA sites  avalue is higher than that of the buildings?

Will it only hit both if you specify them both as targets in the mission editor or is the game making a decision to attack the AAA site upon detection (in effect  creating its own little mission or retasking)?

Thanks


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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by FreekS »

Thanks for the explanation.
 
Dale asked:
One final question, are you speaking in the context of scenario set up (to defeat the player) or are you setting it up in single player as part of an overall strategy for defeating a scenario?
 
The reasons behind using the specific shipstrike or landstrike are ALWAYS (when I use them) to program the AI to give a good player a run for his money. Couple of examples (SPOILER ALERT!):
 
- In 2FR_NL a diesel/electric submarine lies in wait before an approaching CVBG. I put the sub on delayed specific shipstrike mission to attack the carrier and used the plotted path during the delay period to move the sub towards where I (the designer) thought the player would move the CVBG. In 3.6 this means that if the player runs his CVBG in the anticipated direction without good ASW practices (active sonar, helicopter patrols), the SSK will hold fire untill the carrier is in range and shoot at her. This is what I think a really bold sub driver would do. Works like a charm in 3.6. In 3.7.3 the sub shoots at a DDG in the outer screen and of course is detected and killed easily by the player. Reading the above I guess the SSK sees the DDG as a threat, but hey, those are risks SSKs with orders to penetrate a CVBG are supposed to take!
 
-  In the example of UNIFIL; Iranian SSMs are aimed at Israeli runways. Iran is then made neutral to Israel so the SSMs don't fire. I then set up a ferry mission of Iranian attack planes to make the player (Israel) make a decision; "do I see the Iranian planes as threat and kill them or do I hold fire". if he shoots; the SSMs (in 3.6) fire and damage his runways which take about 5 hours to repair (great feature that!). In 3.7.3. the whole airbase (all facilities) get destroyed. So in this case I aimed for a mild punishment of the player for breaking ROE and now cannot control the damage done (in fact I've seen the SSMs fire at a different SIDE when that became hostile).
 
I do understand the efforts made by AGSI to make the AI smarter (that is after all exactly what I try to do in the above examples). However it creates two problems for scen designers that are serious to me:
 
1. The daunting task to replay/retest ALL my scens in 3.7.3 (which on my 5 yr old PC runs VERY slow) to discover the changes in behaviour of the AI - You may have observed that I've only fully tested and released for 3.7.0 and 3.7.1 about a dozen scens (in about 6 months). I know dozens more need major surgery that I don't have time for (yet).
2. Then to decide how and if I can take the time to change my scens so they will work as intended with 3.7.3.
 
Don't want to sound negative at all; but is certainly seems that FORWARD compatibility of already built scenario's from 3.6 to 3.7.3 is not one of the features of 3.7.3. By compatibility I mean that the scen plays roughly as the designer intended. There are some GREAT features in 3.7.3 (I've enjoyed Multi-Player, the higher speeds of air intercept missions, the more realistic visual horizon) but it seems that many of my scens will have to stay with 3.6. and I must choose if I spend my H3-time retesting/rebuilding them or leaving them unavailable for 3.7.3 and focus on designing new scens.
 
I welcome this discussion and hope that maybe Bucks new logic and the 3.6. specific target missions can be combined in some way.
 
Freek
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mikmykWS
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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by mikmykWS »

Thanks for the updates to the wiki and my mission editor manual[;)]

Can you explain the avalues though and how are they derived? I assume the higher is the bigger threat (so I get that much) but not really sure how they are derived. This may be important to scenario editors I think.

Could you ask Darrel about the AAA Gun problem? In your explanation of Steve's issue you explained that a untargeted (unspecified in the mission editor) target with a higher A value would be engaged to keep it busy while the specified target was attacked. However in your first example that didn't happen (in the second it did but that target was specified in the mission editor right?). Anyways could you ask Darrel to maybe help us out with this one? Might be a bit easier than trying to figure it out, especially if he just lays it out in a sentence or two
[;)]


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RE: Confusion Confusion.

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: Flankerk

Unless I am mistaken, pretty much all of us know the problem with the weapons allocation and can readily reproduce it? If I understand correctly it has been reported a number of times and all parties are agreed that it is not the desired behaviour.

I just created a scenario in DB2000. I allocated an Oscar II to a strike mission versus a Wisconsin. The Wisconsin had an escort of a Vincennes and a Ticonderoga. The Oscar came to shallow depth and immediately opened fire, however twelve missiles were aimed at the Vincennes, twelve were fired at the Wisconsin and none were aimed at the Ticonderoga.

The end result was that the scenario as such behaved completely differently from how it should, and completely differently from how it operated in 3.6.
As a result while we would want to convert to 3.7 we are unable to do so. No-one wants a work round solution to stop this behaviour, they want the scenario to behave as was intended.

Can the AGSI "experts" comments on this one please? It certainly sounds like something is very, very broken in 3.7.
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