Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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pauk
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Pauk,

Not quite correct. Jagdfluger has invaded Sakhalin at the beginning of February 42 in my PBEM against him [:D]. of course the REAL trick is whether there will be any US troops left alive on Sakhalin in 1 month's time [:D]


errrr... what is not quite correct? You got those militia divisions? [&:]

EDIT:

oh, my fingers are faster than my brain - i've just realised that you wanted to say that most recent invasion of HI was Jadgeflugers...right...?

anyway, can you confirm that no militia divisions appears in HI in that case?
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Nemo121 »

Pauk,
 
Correct on both counts. I was just saying the most recent, and possibly earliest invasion, of the Home Islands was Jagdfluger's invasion on February 2nd.
 
And you are correct, I didn't get any Militia Divisions or accelerated troop appearances - which is of course unequal treatment, I'd have to say that an Allied player who invades the Home Islands at an early date gets a relative advantage as he won't face the sort of troop increases that a Japanese player would face in attacking CONUSA... and I don't think anyone could argue that if the US etc had invaded Japan in 1942 or 43 they would just simply have sat back and not conducted a levee en masse - which is what the Militia Divisions are supposed to represent.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

And you are correct, I didn't get any Militia Divisions or accelerated troop appearances - which is of course unequal treatment, I'd have to say that an Allied player who invades the Home Islands at an early date gets a relative advantage as he won't face the sort of troop increases that a Japanese player would face in attacking CONUSA... and I don't think anyone could argue that if the US etc had invaded Japan in 1942 or 43 they would just simply have sat back and not conducted a levee en masse - which is what the Militia Divisions are supposed to represent.

I knew this game has a pro-Allied bias! Now if we can only get rid of the corrupt Corsair bonus...
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Nemo121 »

Its not about bias Treespider, it is simply about applying your design decisions logically and consistently.
 
Neither the historical record nor the internal consistency of the programme would support the lack of Militia Divisions if Japan is invaded prior to a certain date.
 
That is why I used unequal instead of "unfair". Please let's not try to turn this into a JFB vs AFB thing when all it is is a statement of historical reality and an observation of  unequally applied design decisions.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by keeferon01 »

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: Big B
Through 1942 and into early 1943 the Army expanded to 8,291,336 men in 89 divisions: sixty-six infantry, five airborne, sixteen armored, one cavalry, and one mountain infantry.
I had no idea the US military was that big at the time. Anybody know how big the Japanese or German military was at its height?

Japan had 51 Divisions and about 60 Ind Brigades in Jan 42
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: treespider
I knew this game has a pro-Allied bias! Now if we can only get rid of the corrupt Corsair bonus...

Real life had a pro-Allied bias. What many people really don't realize (and a large number of Germans and Japanese leaders missed this too) is that the US was the dominant industrial power on the planet before 1920. In 1939, 50% of the manufactured goods in the world were made in the US.

North America is rich in almost all natural resources. During WW II, the largest, in production, oil fields were in the US. Most of England's oil came from Texas. California also had very large oil production. The US Navy owned the leases on a large part of the Midway-Sunset oil field in the San Juaquin Valley. Only in the last 10 years have they sold them off.

The only natural resource the US needed that was cut off by the war was natural rubber. American chemists figured out how to make artificial rubber from petroleum, so that never became a critical problem.

The US population was better trained in some basic skills than anybody else. When Germany started gearing up for war, they started a crash program to teach young men vehicle mechanics and how to drive. Two skills most American males already knew. When the US needed a military truck, they bought commercial truck designs and militarized them. Everybody else had to design military trucks from scratch.

The US didn't have anywhere near its current population, but it was still one of the most populous countries. Japan and Germany mobilized all the men by employing slave labor in their factories. The US did it by mobilizing women to work in factories (along side men unfit for service or too old). With an all volunteer work force mobilized by patriotism, the quality of factory output was better than the Axis could produce.

In this day of American goods = junk and Asian goods = great, it's hard to remember that the opposite was true in the 1930s and 40s. American factories produced some of the best products in the world, even before the war. Japanese quality was better than many people thought in 1941, but it wasn't universally great.

The basic Japanese infantry rifle was the heaviest and longest rifle used by any army. It was terribly balanced and even large men found it very tiring to hold in a firing position for any length of time. The standard issue Japanese side arm is considered by collectors today to be the worst infantry weapon of the war. The pistol had a nasty habit of firing when you holstered it. That is if it didn't jam. US souvenier collectors on the battlefield would throw them away because they were so poor.

As for the US getting extra troops when the Japanese invade early and the Japanese getting none. In 1945, the Japanese militia organizations were the culmination of months of work planning and organizing. Militias rarely spring up spontaneously. If the Allies had invaded early in the war, there probably would have been some disorganized resistance, but Japan's population was unarmed. It wouldn't have ammounted to much without the government providing arms. The government didn't have any spares sitting around. The 1945 militias were armed with weapons that were acquired or manufactured for that purpose.

In the US, the extra units the US gets for a Japanese invasion represents the fast mobilization of National Guard units and regular army units that already existed. In 1941, the standing army was already quite large. They were short of equipment, but as someone else pointed out, much of the shortages were due to the lend lease program.

I believe the manual says that any US LCU that show up early show up with their TOE at half strength (I don't have time to look it up right now, but I recall they don't show up at full strength). That would represnt the shortage of arms. Even at less than full strength, these units thrown into the breach would have almost certainly been able to defeat a Japanese invasion anywhere on the North American mainland. The Japanese would have been running a very long supply line vs. troops fighting on their home turf.

The US has not had a foreign army on its soil since the War of 1812. Look at the reaction to Pearl Harbor and 9/11. A foreign invasion would have been met with even more ferocity.

The game has limitations and non-historical things here and there, some favor the Allies, some the Japanese. The bad news is that the US really was the juggernaut the game reflects. The only thing the Japanese had going for them in the long run was the tenacity of their troops on defense. In the end, they lost every battle after mid-1942 though.

Playing the Japanese in WitP is an exercise in playing a good defense. The goal is to grab as much territory as possible before the Allies can get going, then dig in and hold it as long as possible. You win by slowing down the Allied advance. You can't stop it. After mid-42, don't even think about an offensive anywhere except possibly China.

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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

And you are correct, I didn't get any Militia Divisions or accelerated troop appearances - which is of course unequal treatment, I'd have to say that an Allied player who invades the Home Islands at an early date gets a relative advantage as he won't face the sort of troop increases that a Japanese player would face in attacking CONUSA... and I don't think anyone could argue that if the US etc had invaded Japan in 1942 or 43 they would just simply have sat back and not conducted a levee en masse - which is what the Militia Divisions are supposed to represent.

I knew this game has a pro-Allied bias! Now if we can only get rid of the corrupt Corsair bonus...

And extend the Zero bonus for the entire war and all Jap fighters!
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: Ron James

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: Big B
Through 1942 and into early 1943 the Army expanded to 8,291,336 men in 89 divisions: sixty-six infantry, five airborne, sixteen armored, one cavalry, and one mountain infantry.
I had no idea the US military was that big at the time. Anybody know how big the Japanese or German military was at its height?

Japan had 51 Divisions and about 60 Ind Brigades in Jan 42

Actually less than 30 Independent Brigades.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The US didn't have anywhere near its current population, but it was still one of the most populous countries. Japan and Germany mobilized all the men by employing slave labor in their factories. The US did it by mobilizing women to work in factories (along side men unfit for service or too old). With an all volunteer work force mobilized by patriotism, the quality of factory output was better than the Axis could produce.


while I think this is correct for most of the US equipment compared to the Japanese I don´t think this is true in comparison with the German equipment. There was definetely the factor of quantity but the quality was still very good of German weapons until very late in the war. The problem there wasn´t enough. Not enough of tanks, trucks, fuel,....

My grandfather served over 4 years as a tank commander and told me that they (the German) were always convinced about the "better quality" of their equipment in comparison to Western Allied ground troops while they feared more the equipment of Soviet ground forces. The thing they were really afraid of was the Western Allied Air force. And he never had something better on hand than a late model of the Panzer IV. Don´t want to start the old story about the Sherman vs. the Tiger or Panther again. Of course 10 Shermans are the better choice to produce but the 5 men sitting in a Tiger will be convinced for sure that they´ve got the better tank than those 4 or 5 crews that just were killed in the Shermans when taking on their beast. I bet Wittmann was convinced that he had a better tank than his Western Allied opponents. Though he feared the Eastern tanks that were capable of taken on Tiger.

And all of Hitlers "wonder weapons" were probably years ahead of Allied developments but with the problems with not enough of them and not operational early enough. Besides the fact of stupid decisions like the Schwalbe being a fighter bomber instead of a pure fighter. Producing them in 42 when it would have been possible would have caused more then 100.000 Allied crews lost of German held territory.

Just my 2c.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Kereguelen »

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Pauk,

Correct on both counts. I was just saying the most recent, and possibly earliest invasion, of the Home Islands was Jagdfluger's invasion on February 2nd.

And you are correct, I didn't get any Militia Divisions or accelerated troop appearances - which is of course unequal treatment, I'd have to say that an Allied player who invades the Home Islands at an early date gets a relative advantage as he won't face the sort of troop increases that a Japanese player would face in attacking CONUSA... and I don't think anyone could argue that if the US etc had invaded Japan in 1942 or 43 they would just simply have sat back and not conducted a levee en masse - which is what the Militia Divisions are supposed to represent.

The Japanese "Militia" divisions triggered late in the war in WITP are not militia but regular IJA divisons that historically formed between January - August 1945. They did not suddenly spring up but were formed quite ordinary. Due to lack of armament and personell, most were far from being complete when Japan surrendered.

Historically, Japan always kept regular divisions in the homeland during the war (for example, Guards Mixed Brigade - later expanded to 1st Guards Division - never left Japan (or even the Tokyo Bay area).

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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

You are indeed right, Castor. Who invented the missiles (the V1 & V2) and the Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (one of the first jet-powered planes)? [;)] As for the famous A-Bomb, should we remember that a lot of those scientists were not er... Americans?

As for Germany, quality is evident and well known. As for Japan, we can't deny they had an excellent equipment (along with some sh**). If the Allies won, it's basically because they were much more strong (not better) than their counterparts: er... USA + USSR (who could beat this "team" on the 40's?). This is especially true in the Pacific.

And we also should keep in mind that the USA were never bombed or invaded during the war... Germans, the USSR and the Japanese (the anti-submarine campaign: no ressources, oil = industry does not work) were... This is a big big big advantage.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by VSWG »

Nikademus played a game against himself where he invaded CONUSA:

tm.asp?m=666418

The famous 'Banana AAR' - it's quite entertaining... [:D]

You can find a link to ADavidB's "Test of Invasion-Induced Reinforcements"-thread in section II.E here:
tm.asp?m=1274014
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by Mike Scholl »

German quality was impressive in many areas..., which was one of the major problems with quantity production the Germans had. The American genious was really for "mass production" more than design..., though they weren't shabby at that in many areas. It wasn't until the middle of the war that the Germans began designing some weapons (MG-42 comes to mind) with ease of production as a major criterion...., in the US it was always a consideration.

A perfect example is the "cavity magnitron" which produced a quantum leap in Radar Technology. The British invented it (as they did pennicillin), but turned it over to the Americans for production. The Americans simplified the designs and produced them by the thousands (and by the millions of doses in the case of drugs).

The Germans produced some excellent tanks, but could never produce them in quantity because of the difficulty of production. The Americans and the Russians both produced less impressive designs (the M-4 and the T-34) that could be cranked out by the ten's of thousands and swamped them. Sometimes the quest for production simplicity worked against the US. The 3.5" Bazooka was designed less than 2 months after the 2.76" Bazooka was adopted..., with much better performance and capability. But no one wanted to interfere with production of the smaller design to implement the better one. After all, the 60mm version was working just fine against the armor of 1942..., so why screw things up switching to a 90mm version. 1944 provided the answer.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The US didn't have anywhere near its current population, but it was still one of the most populous countries. Japan and Germany mobilized all the men by employing slave labor in their factories. The US did it by mobilizing women to work in factories (along side men unfit for service or too old). With an all volunteer work force mobilized by patriotism, the quality of factory output was better than the Axis could produce.




while I think this is correct for most of the US equipment compared to the Japanese I don´t think this is true in comparison with the German equipment. There was definetely the factor of quantity but the quality was still very good of German weapons until very late in the war. The problem there wasn´t enough. Not enough of tanks, trucks, fuel,....

My grandfather served over 4 years as a tank commander and told me that they (the German) were always convinced about the "better quality" of their equipment in comparison to Western Allied ground troops while they feared more the equipment of Soviet ground forces. The thing they were really afraid of was the Western Allied Air force. And he never had something better on hand than a late model of the Panzer IV. Don´t want to start the old story about the Sherman vs. the Tiger or Panther again. Of course 10 Shermans are the better choice to produce but the 5 men sitting in a Tiger will be convinced for sure that they´ve got the better tank than those 4 or 5 crews that just were killed in the Shermans when taking on their beast. I bet Wittmann was convinced that he had a better tank than his Western Allied opponents. Though he feared the Eastern tanks that were capable of taken on Tiger.

And all of Hitlers "wonder weapons" were probably years ahead of Allied developments but with the problems with not enough of them and not operational early enough. Besides the fact of stupid decisions like the Schwalbe being a fighter bomber instead of a pure fighter. Producing them in 42 when it would have been possible would have caused more then 100.000 Allied crews lost of German held territory.

Just my 2c.

Castor, please do not go to general disscusion forum with such ideas[;)]. If you bring these arguments you will be acussed for ethnic cleanese or something worse by certain idiot Rudo Fagson or whatever who is hiding behind all mighty paul veber. The reason while i'm telling you that is that even a old Sherman/Tiger, Bismarck sunk/scuttled, Zero/Wildcat didn't introduce such creature. Also didn't know that paul veber is arrogant and ignorant person - that is why i won't go there anymore....


Thanks for sharing your grandfather's thoughts with us... most interesting i must say.[:)]
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by SurrenderMonkey »

And all of Hitlers "wonder weapons" were probably years ahead of Allied developments but with the problems with not enough of them and not operational early enough. Besides the fact of stupid decisions like the Schwalbe being a fighter bomber instead of a pure fighter. Producing them in 42 when it would have been possible would have caused more then 100.000 Allied crews lost of German held territory.

Just my 2c.

But, of course, the ultimate Achilles heel for Germany in WW2 was plain old-fashioned manpower. Does no good to have a bunch of Maus' and Schwalbes when you have no one to operate them except 16 y/o boys and 60 y/o grandfathers. War is a horror.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by bradfordkay »

" And we also should keep in mind that the USA were never bombed or invaded during the war.."

Not quite true... Oregon was bombed (I forget which town) by a Japanese sub launched aircraft.
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

Now you are being cryptic, Pauk [:D] I respect your discretion though. I suspect someone on these forums has to have an Enigma Machine and thus will "understand" what you are saying [8D]

EDIT: yes, I know that, Bradfordkay. Not to mention the submarine attacks in the American Atlantic Coast. But for sure, this was a minimal interference, if we compare it with the huge problems faced by Germans, USSR, Japan, UK, etc. The real issue: the USA were pretty safe (if we except these "anecdotes") [:)]
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The US didn't have anywhere near its current population, but it was still one of the most populous countries. Japan and Germany mobilized all the men by employing slave labor in their factories. The US did it by mobilizing women to work in factories (along side men unfit for service or too old). With an all volunteer work force mobilized by patriotism, the quality of factory output was better than the Axis could produce.




while I think this is correct for most of the US equipment compared to the Japanese I don´t think this is true in comparison with the German equipment. There was definetely the factor of quantity but the quality was still very good of German weapons until very late in the war. The problem there wasn´t enough. Not enough of tanks, trucks, fuel,....

My grandfather served over 4 years as a tank commander and told me that they (the German) were always convinced about the "better quality" of their equipment in comparison to Western Allied ground troops while they feared more the equipment of Soviet ground forces. The thing they were really afraid of was the Western Allied Air force. And he never had something better on hand than a late model of the Panzer IV. Don´t want to start the old story about the Sherman vs. the Tiger or Panther again. Of course 10 Shermans are the better choice to produce but the 5 men sitting in a Tiger will be convinced for sure that they´ve got the better tank than those 4 or 5 crews that just were killed in the Shermans when taking on their beast. I bet Wittmann was convinced that he had a better tank than his Western Allied opponents. Though he feared the Eastern tanks that were capable of taken on Tiger.

And all of Hitlers "wonder weapons" were probably years ahead of Allied developments but with the problems with not enough of them and not operational early enough. Besides the fact of stupid decisions like the Schwalbe being a fighter bomber instead of a pure fighter. Producing them in 42 when it would have been possible would have caused more then 100.000 Allied crews lost of German held territory.

Just my 2c.

Castor, please do not go to general disscusion forum with such ideas[;)]. If you bring these arguments you will be acussed for ethnic cleanese or something worse by certain idiot Rudo Fagson or whatever who is hiding behind all mighty paul veber. The reason while i'm telling you that is that even a old Sherman/Tiger, Bismarck sunk/scuttled, Zero/Wildcat didn't introduce such creature. Also didn't know that paul veber is arrogant and ignorant person - that is why i won't go there anymore....


Thanks for sharing your grandfather's thoughts with us... most interesting i must say.[:)]


Who´s Rudo Fagson or Paul Veber?? [&:] Did I miss something??
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by TulliusDetritus »

You are not the one who is supposed to have that Enigma Machine, don't worry [8D]
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RE: Any pbem invasions of the US West Coast?

Post by rtrapasso »

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" And we also should keep in mind that the USA were never bombed or invaded during the war.."

Not quite true... Oregon was bombed (I forget which town) by a Japanese sub launched aircraft.

Just saw this recently - they bombed some woods (not a town), trying to start forest fires - but it had rained, and so didn't work.

Of course, there were also balloon bombs (tens of thousands released, and several caused some damage). One of these killed a woman and some boy scouts, but i think that was the extent of casualties for this considerable effort.
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