Is invading Australia as easy at it seems?

[Mike Solli]

For my little recon in force to Darwin, I used 2 divisions, 2 brigades, 2 tank regiments, some artillery and a HQ.  He had some stuff there but fortunately there were no forts.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.

Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

For my little recon in force to Darwin, I used 2 divisions, 2 brigades, 2 tank regiments, some artillery and a HQ.  He had some stuff there but fortunately there were no forts.

Oh my...

I started fort building in Darwin on 8 December. They go up fast, too.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: herwin


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back?

Concentration (or uber-concentration) is a pretty standard tactic in the game. I had an opponent do that to me as well with Darwin to 'train up' his bomber groups by hitting Timor every day. The downside of the uber-con of course is if you get caught by a good bombardment (air or sea, or both) you can potentially lose alot of aircraft in one fell swoop. (lots of damaged planes = trapped)

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.

Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.

Invading Darwin wasn't my first thought. I sent some CAs there to bombard and disrupt his bombers. When my ships got away without damage, I did it again. They were very successful. At that point I decided to send a division there. They made it and were unable to dislodge the Allied forces. By this point, he had quite a few damaged bombers sitting there. I moved in the rest of the force (basically everything I could scrape up in the area) and finally drove him out. It was the naval bombardment that really caused the invasion to occur. I got lucky. Basically, it prevented the destruction of Amboina by about 6 months or so.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ORIGINAL: herwin


Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back?

Concentration (or uber-concentration) is a pretty standard tactic in the game. I had an opponent do that to me as well with Darwin to 'train up' his bomber groups by hitting Timor every day. The downside of the uber-con of course is if you get caught by a good bombardment (air or sea, or both) you can potentially lose alot of aircraft in one fell swoop. (lots of damaged planes = trapped)

Dispersal was a pretty standard tactic in reality. Plus, you're not using base forces to maintain squadrons that are doing little for you.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In one of my PBEMs I did invade Darwin.  The goal was to trash his B-25s and B-17 sitting there.  I had bombarded the place a couple of time and did destroy a good number of them, while damaging a bunch more.  I invaded and took the place destroying the damaged planes.  I destroyed over 200 planes.  Looking at my notes, it happened in early May 42.  I stayed about a month and successfully withdrew my forces.  I was afraid it would have turned into a self-sustaining POW camp.  You need to ship all supply there while the Allies can use the roads to supply any relief force.  Once Allied air power builds up, you're dead meat.

Basically, I think Northern Australia is easy to take but practically impossible to hold.  I'd much rather use those land forces to defend the SRA.

Why had your opponent concentrated all his aircraft at Darwin? And why didn't he pull any of them back? I play CHS, and when a squadron on the north coast needs a rest, I pull it back to an inland base for R&R. You *can* ship damaged aircraft cross-country--it's not like they're stuck at the base in Darwin.

Invading Darwin wasn't my first thought. I sent some CAs there to bombard and disrupt his bombers. When my ships got away without damage, I did it again.

No mines? No coast defense units?

They were very successful. At that point I decided to send a division there. They made it and were unable to dislodge the Allied forces.

Time to move the air out, especially the damaged aircraft. If I pull out a damaged squadron of 12 or 24, it makes room for an undamaged squadron of the same strength (if I want to keep air in the hex). I prefer to have base forces at a number of bases, rather than having all my eggs in one basket. Of course, I play CHS.

By this point, he had quite a few damaged bombers sitting there. I moved in the rest of the force (basically everything I could scrape up in the area) and finally drove him out. It was the naval bombardment that really caused the invasion to occur. I got lucky. Basically, it prevented the destruction of Amboina by about 6 months or so.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: herwin


Dispersal was a pretty standard tactic in reality. Plus, you're not using base forces to maintain squadrons that are doing little for you.

nevertheless, concentration is a pretty standard tactic in WitP. [:)]

[Mike Solli]

[quote]ORIGINAL: herwin

Time to move the air out, especially the damaged aircraft. If I pull out a damaged squadron of 12 or 24, it makes room for an undamaged squadron of the same strength (if I want to keep air in the hex). I prefer to have base forces at a number of bases, rather than having all my eggs in one basket. Of course, I play CHS.
[quote]

There's one little point I haven't mentioned. We're using Andrew Brown's map and there are no rail roads, just roads IIRC.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

invading is easy - taking north Oz too
keeping it secure with rest of empire is much more difficult especially later in 43 and 44
for me there is negative value of such move - it ties too much precious assets

I've invaded Oz in more than one game. But my primary reason isn't to "take and hold" ... there isn't really anything worth holding. So why invade? Well actually I consider invading to be a "necessary evil". Most of the PBEMs I've played that have gotten into 43-44 have seen the primary Allied attack based out of Darwin. And Darwin with 100 P-38s and 400 B-17s is a dagger pointed straight at the SRA, allowing this area to be closed down at least a year earlier than it was historically. So, by invading, the purpose is to buy time. The time is used to build up Timor, Kai, etc. to make them tougher to attack. Can you buy an additional six months delay by doing this? I say yes, about that, hence that is what it is worth. If the Allies can crawl back along the North Coast of New Guinea, or come back in Burma .. or put Major airpower into China, or do any one of these things by late '43 .. then the Timor to Kendari route is no longer as attractive. But my hope is the invasion of NW Oz keeps the Allies out of Timor until late '43 ... that is the goal anyway.

[moses]

I have no doubt the taking N Austrailia is a big plus in the game. And it can be held fairly ecconomically with probably 2 or 3 divisions against the entire Austrailian army.

I'm just wondering if Japan can really spare two divisions in Jan/Feb of 42. I mean before you defend the DEI you have to take the thing first...right[:D][:D][:D]

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: moses

I have no doubt the taking N Austrailia is a big plus in the game. And it can be held fairly ecconomically with probably 2 or 3 divisions against the entire Austrailian army.

I'm just wondering if Japan can really spare two divisions in Jan/Feb of 42. I mean before you defend the DEI you have to take the thing first...right[:D][:D][:D]

That was my orig question......how many Divisions on average are these Japanese players able to tap for offensive ops beyond the pale of what the Japanese historically did. There were originally 11 Divisions slated for the SRA op.....over half are on garrison duty or in Burma by 42 (42 start) Are these other areas being stripped of all their troops?

[moses]

I think it depends a lot on the kind of start.

If your playing a lunacy type game where half the DEI is overrun on turn 1 through three you can get away with a lot.

But the more you're first turn conforms to the historical situation on 8 Dec the more difficult it will be.

The most difficult is to try this with the historical first turn option where the bulk of your forces still have to be loaded on transports on 8 Dec. In this case it will take a great deal of skill to take the DEI while missing two divisions in Autrailia.

[bradfordkay]

Even on AB's map you can use road transport for aircraft between Darwin and Alice Springs, and from A.S. to points south on a later day. AB's map also includes a couple of intermediate bases, Katherine and Tennant Creek, along the road to Alice Springs.

Since they gave us the ability to transport damaged aircraft via rail in one of the patches, you can get them out if the base doesn't fall in the furst turn. Spend one turn flying out the working aircraft, and the next day you can transfer out the damaged ones via road transport.

[Mike Solli]

We're using v. 3.2 of AB's map.  Those bases you mention don't sound familiar, but in all fairness, I don't really spend a lot of time looking over the map of Australia.

[Nikademus]

Yea, i figure thats what many must do, "lunancy" style aka, shuttle around a mass of troops to each new objective. Myself, i try to play along lines of what the RL commander's would think in terms of garrisoning major land masses hence, i often find myself in mid 42 looking at a bit of a shortage of troops....there's lots of little naval units around but few full divisions as there's at least 2 Divisions for the PI/Java and several divisions stationed in Burma/Malaya. (5 of the orig 11 right there)

[Nikademus]

They should probably be represented by trails to simulate the remoteness of the north. Darwin as a major hub for invasion/air bombardment was not very practical in RL...at least not till well into 43.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: moses

I have no doubt the taking N Austrailia is a big plus in the game. And it can be held fairly ecconomically with probably 2 or 3 divisions against the entire Austrailian army.

I'm just wondering if Japan can really spare two divisions in Jan/Feb of 42. I mean before you defend the DEI you have to take the thing first...right[:D][:D][:D]

If the allied player plays his cards right taking the entire DEI should take well into March, April or beyond.

Also, while taking N Australia early in the game may not be that tough, holding it could be another matter, in particular if the DEI are completely occupied. If I were the allies I would be thinking encircle and starve.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005
Also, while taking N Australia early in the game may not be that tough, holding it could be another matter, in particular if the DEI are completely occupied. If I were the allies I would be thinking encircle and starve.

As the Japanese player, that's my concern with attacking N. Australia too.

[John 3rd]

On the question of how many units, I pull from China.  As soon as my Political Points are high enough, I pull Brigades and Divisions and send them to the Pacific.  In my game against Wolfpack (Feb 1944), this now totals 7 Infantry Divisions and 6 Brigades.  THAT is A LOT of troops!
 
Takes time and patience but one can keep the Inner Perimeter shored up AND expand beyond historical limits...