Late War Japanese Production Complaints

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: treespider

If I understand correctly Andy is trying to fight the Japanese Air Force with the US Carrier fleet 6-8 months prior to when the US launched the great carrier sweeps historically. In addition, correct me if i am mistaken, unlike history the Japanese in Andy's game have not been subjected to a war of attrition in the South Pacific and New Guinea, where by the end of 1943 the experienced Japanese pilots had been killed off. In addition what effort has been made in Andy's game toward destroying the Japanese Merchant fleet? By August 1944 5,000,000 tons of japanese shipping have been destroyed leaving 3,325,000 which was insufficient to support the empire (Source: USSBS)

Andy has destroyed thousands of planes, but I think he was more attrited than PzB! [8|] At least he ran out of Navy pilots and Hellcats.

He tried to use his subs against PzB merchant fleet but I think hundreds of planes have killed more subs than subs have killed merchant ships. Having 80 exp. + Helens and Sallies on ASW patrol on your shipping routes will make it impossible to achieve the results that were achieved in real life.

But part of the reason he has the Helens and Sallies available for ASW work is he is not fighting in Burma or China.

[Nikademus]

and he's making some pretty big leaps in his island hoping. Given what happened with 3rd USMC i'd say he got a little too ambitious in the # of targets.

[DuckofTindalos]

"Island Hoping"???[:D][:D][:D]

[Nikademus]

Well....he was hoping for a more positive outcome.....

[anarchyintheuk]

I wouldn't say Andy was ahead of the historic timetable. Unfortunately for him, his timetable just didn't include Midway.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: treespider

If I understand correctly Andy is trying to fight the Japanese Air Force with the US Carrier fleet 6-8 months prior to when the US launched the great carrier sweeps historically. In addition, correct me if i am mistaken, unlike history the Japanese in Andy's game have not been subjected to a war of attrition in the South Pacific and New Guinea, where by the end of 1943 the experienced Japanese pilots had been killed off. In addition what effort has been made in Andy's game toward destroying the Japanese Merchant fleet? By August 1944 5,000,000 tons of japanese shipping have been destroyed leaving 3,325,000 which was insufficient to support the empire (Source: USSBS)

Andy has destroyed thousands of planes, but I think he was more attrited than PzB! [8|] At least he ran out of Navy pilots and Hellcats.

He tried to use his subs against PzB merchant fleet but I think hundreds of planes have killed more subs than subs have killed merchant ships. Having 80 exp. + Helens and Sallies on ASW patrol on your shipping routes will make it impossible to achieve the results that were achieved in real life.

But part of the reason he has the Helens and Sallies available for ASW work is he is not fighting in Burma or China.

yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

[Japanese_Spirit]

Considering that this is the only Pacific War game that allows excellent gameplay (in comparison to others) even by the A.I itself, a few inaccurate factors like Japanese industrial production I can put up with.

[Andy Mac]

Ummm no Treespider I only went deep from late 44 which was when the USN was historically all dominent. My first real attempt was Jun 44 supported by LBA followed by unsupported Jan 45 - if the USN cannot operate alone then something is wrong !!!

To be fair I was able to operate in 45 AE's and USMC Corsairs are a great leveller but losses are far to heavy and trained pilots far to prevalent .

My point from my earlier post which was not clear is that my only real issue is Hellcat Production which is about half of what it should be and USN pilots [:@].

Pretty much every game I play the allied sub offensive is a myth because of ASW aircraft the only game I have seen with even close to historic results is Speedies so it can be done but I dont detect Faber using army bombers on ASW.

Re 3rd USMC that was a diversion - yes I hoped to take the base but it was designed to take pressure off of Operation Yellow.

Re Timetable given the agreements with PZB - India garrisoned and China forces PP'd to be released and the position I inherited with Northern Solomons/PM and Tarawa all in allied hands in mid 43 well ahead of schedule I was confident I could match MacArthur and Nimitz but historically the allies moved incredibly fast in 44 and I have been unable to keep anywhere close to timetable....but watch that space !!!

Andy

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
yes, correct. But IMO every "smart" Jap player has his Helens and Sallies in the SRA to cover his shipping lanes and not in Burma from early 43 on. IMO there´s not much to do in Burma or southern India for them as they would just be targets on their airfields or shot down over an Allied base. Not much to achieve there. But they ALONE can interdict an Allied sub offensive. Been there done that.

Of course he has an advantage of not having to fight in Burma.

Hi castor,

Not to blow my own trumpet but Subs can still be effective even when LBA is deployed on ASW. Faber has them deployed on ASW and i'm still sinking 20-40 ships per month with my subs for the loss of 1-4 subs a month.

The key in the early years is to get experience on your subs with attacks. Once you get Radar and the dud rate falls you can have a ball. You need to KEEP MOVING your subs. That combined with higher experience crews, radar and working torpedoes can lead to results.

It's not always a cert but you can still have success with subs.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My point from my earlier post which was not clear is that my only real issue is Hellcat Production which is about half of what it should be and USN pilots [:@].

Pretty much every game I play the allied sub offensive is a myth because of ASW aircraft the only game I have seen with even close to historic results is Speedies so it can be done but I dont detect Faber using army bombers on ASW.

Hi Andy,

I really feel for you on the Hellcat/pilot thing. You are very honourable to not conduct on-map training yourself as PzB does (I hate on-map treaining by the eay).

As for Faber using army bombers he does.

IIRC over the past month I have seen:

Betty/Emily/Jake/Helen sightigns around Sumatra/Borneo.

Sonia/Sally sightings near Saigon/Camranh Bay

Sally/Helen sightings around Formosa/PI

With the diminshed empire his free airbases are descreasing as are his SLOC and my chances of submarine attacks. In short as his empire decreases the harder I believe it will be fior me to get sub kills since there wil be a more confined space making it easier for ASW.

[Speedysteve]

As a sidenote I agree it seems to be Lillies and Sallys achieving most hits on my subs.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

well in the "a" version of my mod, (GC and 42a only)

R&D factories drastically reduced and small mini-factories that build the same airframe have been consolidated into singular larger factory locations. These two changes both limit player capability to expand drastically the plane types and to make airframe changes more a choice between optimizing existing production and starting new lines. A common player tactic for example is to convert some of an existing plane's production to a newer type and then make up for the change by expanding one of the lil' factories producing that same type. Now it becomes more of a choice between producing existing plane A and new up and coming plane B.

I also eliminated some of the free upgrades as well, for example, Ki43 to Ki61. You have to spend the cash to expand the Tony factories.

In the 'b' version most of the above isn't there and thats the version everyone seems to play [:D]

Mogami made the point sometime that the Japanese had been given the 700-odd factories doing research as a crutch to the AI (and JFB's [:)]) because it doesn't know how to expand or convert factories, poor thing.

[anthonykevinluke]

I think that it is broken, though I still play both sides quite happily. Have alook at some of the AARs in progress and look at the production figures for the Japanese. A certain game leaps to mind as he posted some production pictures recently. For late 1943 he was producing over xxx Zero's, approx xxx each of Tony, Jack, and Tojo, and in one month or so was expecting xxx George (Sorry, numbers removed at individuals request, you'll have to find them yourself). He also had massive stockpiles of oil, resource and HI. So, in effect he was easily outproducing the US in 1943 and indeed these figures are outproducing US 1944 production, without any further increases!!! Now, good gameplay should be rewarded and I have no issues with the japanese being able to do this; However, what's good for one side is equally good for another! Why should the US continue to produce P40N and other sub-standard types when there is no such restriction on the Japanese player??? Why wouldn't the US 'ramp up' production of their better aircraft in response to the the Japanese threat and quality??? So, yes, I truly believe that it is broken. Also, throw in the Pilot training issue in China, bypassed base's etc and the Japanese quality will be easily as good as the allies as well, so no pilot quality deterioration. The games that we have seen that have gone the distance were with PDU off I believe, so we have not yet seen the full impact of PDU on and unrestricted Japanese production and training. For your consideration.

Tony

[PzB74]

WitP hasn't really been tested properly in 44-46. The game is quite different from 41-43 than from 44-46; believe me....!
Allies can nerf Japan when they get LBA into action and therefore HAS to suppress Jap AF before engaging in a battle of attrition with the US Navy.
Ask Andy!-)

Training 'camps' in China can only be used if the Allies have been neutralized in Burma, China and India.
The 'reward' is that Allies can't stop Japan from bombing defenseless Chinese bases. Consider this the only alternative to implementing a more efficient pilot training program. Later in the game Allies can bomb all the bypassed Jap bases in exactly the same way. Andy has been doing this, although not in a organized fashion:

This tiny little bypassed atoll with no defenses and a ghost unit has been bombed daily for a year:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Jaluit , at 81,84
 
Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 12
P-61A Black Widow x 30
A-26B Invader x 26
 
No Allied losses
 
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 10
 
Aircraft Attacking:
26 x A-26B Invader bombing at 8000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 55th Division, at 81,84
 
Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 24
P-40N Warhawk x 27
 
No Allied losses
 
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
15 x P-40N Warhawk bombing at 2000 feet
12 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
12 x F4U-1D Corsair bombing at 2000 feet
-------------------------------------------------------------------

So the Allies also gain pilot experience and I wouldn't mind if Andy trained his Hellcats this way and he's actually been training some Hellcat N-5 night fighters this way and then later been using them as daytime fighters on his carriers. This is also all fine with me!

The problem is that he doesn't have ENOUGH Hellcats. That's another issue, think the US should receive more than they do.
If the US lost such huge amounts of men and ac in the real war there would have been serious consequences behind the scenes.
This is a factor that must be disregarded with the current A2A model. Should be a very simple thing to fix in any mod though.

Whether to consider attacking defenseless bases with your ac 'gamey' is completely up to each player...but it takes a true machochist to  play
Japan for 4 years with only 30 exp replacement pilots [:D]

On the other side the current A2A model does not compute and cause horrendous casualties - on both sides really - but especially so for Japan.
Training more pilots becomes a must to keep the game playable in 44-46. Allied player has to take this into consideration when he plans his tactics.
Andy couldn't know this to begin with, he was very much in a unique position and has experimented his way forward.

Playing with PDU on is an advantage for Japan I think; Andy didn't want to turn it on when we got the opportunity to do so. Since he's playing a game
of PDU with Pauk I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about [;)] In a non PDU game Japan is stuck with some 800 Oscar IIs throughout the war...
If that's not a restriction that forces Japan to produce thousands of obsolescent ac you can call me Dalai Lama!! [:D] The limitation comes in which units that upgrades to the more modern fighters.

With all of this hindsight players have to make decisions as they play their way through the game. In a game that takes 3-4 years to finish we can't expect that all parts of it has been beta tested thoroughly. We should be very happy for all the effort Matrix has put into continous improvement over the last 4 years. A longer support period than any other non-online game I know of [&o]

Mods and house rules have to make up for this 'weakness'. Personally I hope Matrix will come with a patch that covers issues that are found when the game has been properly examined in the 44-46 periode. The current A2A model provides challenges for both Japan and Allies;

Allies run out of naval pilots and Hellcats if they're not careful and choose their offensives carefully.
If Japan wins major victories in 1942 it may be impossible for the Allied player to achieve more than a draw when the game ends.

Japan takes horrendous losses in A2A and can choose between increasing production massively - if they can afford it - and find a way to train pilots
for their ac, if not the Allies will walk all over them and the game won't become very interesting for neither side.

The A2A model also makes the kamikaze model flawed as a 2-300 strong Allied CAP will shoot down more ac than Japan can manage to scramble.
Allied advantages from radar is immense; 80-90% of fighters usually scramble before an attack and yesterday I witnessed how 100 Jap naval bombers were shot down by 30 US fighters in a few minutes. The only solution is to attack un-CAP'ed ships - which isn't always easy as carriers attracts kamiz like fire do doodle bugs [8|] - or send in kamikazes in extremely high altitudes that cannot be intercepted. Again, more decisions have to be made in regards to playability and use of game mechanics that make players that want to play a historic simulation howl in frustration. From another point, Jap air radar doesn't work at all and it is VERY difficult to get enough fighters airborne to meet a 4-500 strong bomber raid. Those who get airborne are shot down to the last pilot while those who are left on the ground are torched to the last airframe.

I think everyone playing WitP in the late war years have to be patient and accept the hard facts and adjust accordingly.
Personally I'm still a bit annoyed that Matrix didn't fix the Ohka bombs and lots of resources and frustration has gone into this.
Imagine attacking an Iowa class battleship with Ohka bombs only to realize that they will never hit anything [:(]
Still, I can live with it but hope to see a fix for it one day! [&o]

[pauk]

now, before you post my statistic you really should ask me.... this is a not most honourable move by you!

Re my researching ac - this was supposed to be secret and now you ruined my plans!

ORIGINAL: tony luke

[Vetamur]

ouch..someone needs a lecture on secrecy..... Pauk you should mail Andy and ask him not to read this thread.

[pauk]

Now about producition: i dont produce over 500 Zekes - the truth is most of my zero factories auto upgraded to Zekes - 200 or more are produced, the rest is on halt...

Yes, i have massive stockpiles of oil and resources (Andy will be grateful for that info too!) but i've achived that with the good play... carefully planed capture of resource bases, bombed them for a weeks from land air and sea etc.....

Since i know where Japanese failed in RL i didn't want to do the same mistake...i like to pretend that i'm not that stupid!

As for the PDU, this is a totally new world, i agree. But don't think that this is so one-sided issue. The truth is i'm in good position but i was aware what i must do to get myself into good position. Sorry to say that but Andy didn't realise that ... i wont disclose here details, but i suspect that there is a good strategy for Allied player to stop Japanese and i'm willing to try it as Allies!

Of course i could be wrong but i do really think that active and sneaky Allied player can do serious damage to the Japanese and prevent such historical inaccuracy...


Im not claiming that Japan outproducing US is right, I'm claiming - prevent Japanese to do that!


EDIT: Currently i'm producing app 2100 ac of all types per month

[pauk]

well it is over now, Andy probably saw that.... i really don't understand why someone would do that????

[Vetamur]

He has a post count of 24... I think he just didnt think.. (of course my post count is just 61...but Im wise beyond my posts..lol). Where is Andy located? Its not a peak "on the internet" time right now....maybe he didnt.. Not cool..

[racndoc]

Is there any documentation in real life that any Allied capital ships were sunk or even seriously damaged by an Ohka?