Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Marauders »

Your own numbers support exactly what I said. Now go back and show us where I said accidental deaths in training dont occur anymore?
 
My number support that what you said was misleading.  While your statement, "Like it or not the stark reality is 3200 or so dead soldiers in over 4 years is barely more than die in training accidents in that time," is correct in that throughout the entire military, there have been that number of deaths due to accidents, you make it sound like the war has not had casualties more than just a bit larger than that.  That is not the case. The deaths are over and above the deaths by accident, and if that is not explained, whether you meant to mislead or not, then the wrong conclusions could be made.
 
The reality being we are fighting a war ( you know, that event where 2 or more sides TRY to kill each other?) and the personnel killed in that on going war are less or equal to the numbers killed in peacetime training accidents.
 
I had asked for similar numbers of accidents in any theater of operations.  Having Paul site numbers from the entire military rather than one theater disregards the premise of my statement.  The deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are in the CENTCOM theater.  There is no evidence that suggests soldiers are being killed at the same rate as accidental death in that one zone.  That doesn't even begin to cover the requirement of matching the WIA personnel numbers either in theater or in total force.
 
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Paul Vebber »

I respect Paul's opinion, but this statement above is no less than an appeal to authority. It is faulty logic in itself.

You asked for statistics, I statisfied your criterea, but you dismiss it based on an argument that the absolute number of deaths is not comparable. That is an opinion, but that is all that is. Why would the fact that 3000 more peole died during a four year period of the Cold War than in a four year period of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars be "faulty logic". It is a fact. You may not like it, or believe it is meaningful. But that is a matter of opinion. Why is your opinion superior?

Unless you are disputing the statistics there is no fallacy of "appeal to authority" if the authority is indeed the "authority" for the statistic sited. Or are you saying that the Statistical Information Analysis Division of DOD is NOT the athoritative source of casualty statistics?

As to wounded vs injured - if you count hospital admissions of active duty personnel over those 4 years you get 1,151,111 active duty servicemembers admitted to military hospitals. From my days as a safety officer about 1 in 12
hospitalizations result in greater than 30 lost work days (the definition of a "serious injury") so somewhere in the neighborhood 96,000 "serious injuries" went along with those nearly 10,000 deaths (which also falls pretty closely in line with the death to serious injury ratio in peace time of about 9 - 1.
That's not the "reality". The emergency supplemental military appropriations have taken care of that.

The the uparmored HUMVEEs were not in the budget. They were not ordered in 1996 or even in 2001. In May of 2004, Congress approved $618 million funding for the production of 300 M1114s uparmored HUMVEEsper month from May through October, and 450 per month, from October 2004 till March 2006. $610 million were also allocated for armor kits for existing tactical vehicles.

Actually the design of the uparmored HUMVEE was done in 1993, the mine threat in Bonia led to an increase in 1996. THe 2000lb weight made for a mobility and transportability tradeoff that argued for a realtively small portion of them to be uparmored. THe Marines, which valued mobility over protection and did not initially uparmor theirs, uparmored 110 of their HUMVEES in 2003 with kits. The army started soon after and by Jan 2004 had over 2000. The company making them completed a new factory in early 2004 and that allowed 220 to be produced per month.

IED and RPG attacks resulted in the Army designing a diferen armor package to protect against them in 2003 these added only 1000lbs of weight. Other armor packages added only 750lbs, and another over 4000lbs.

What mix of these armor packages did Congress authorize? They didn't - they just plussed up existing funding streams for uparmored HUMVEES and the primary mnufacturer had the foresight to build a new factory that happened to come online in a timely manner. That together with in theater up armoring depots and herculean efforts to get around 20,000 vehicels upamored to various degrees.

"plusing up" an existing budget item is something Congress does from time to time. But they do not dictate to the Army the mix of armor packages they must buy with that money. Note that these were NOT funded with supplemental money but with FY 2004 and 2005 budget authority.

34 BILLION dollars has ben budgeted since to revamp the levels of armor in ALL the army's transport vehicle fleet. NOT SUPPLEMENTALS. That program is going to take until 2018 to complete the "tactical wheeled fleet transformation strategy" doesn't completely overall the mix of vehicles in the entire army - just the mix of truck types and levels of armor on the various types of trucks. That is almost 300,000 vehicles. and will take 12 years. And coming under Title X responsibilities, is NOT someting that can be paid fo with suplemetals (which can only pay for non-programmed costs, well, and whatever non-DoD pork they decide to add-in...)

ref: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... eeking.htm

THAT is reality. The notion that major changes in the mix of army vehicles can be done quickly by supplementals is pure fantasy.

Not the 3200+ military personal is the problem (and add the approx the twice in PMC losses who are mostly US citizen also), but the number of civilian casualties,

Were civilian casualties "the problem" in WWII?
The wahabites have already more weapon (planes etc) than they can man, of course Iran will react and the US wont have anything to do but lay back and see how his two great adversaries bleed each other dry.

Well, and destroying most of the oil production and disrupting its transport out of the gulf, sending oil prices through the roof, depressing the world economy. But who cares if that costs us ten times more than the Iraq war... we will be too busy selling aples and pencils on street corners to worry. And our military will be safely out of harms way...

As simple as that.

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber
Were civilian casualties "the problem" in WWII?

We are living in a different world.
a. No matter what Huntington says it is NOT a war of civilizations.
b. And hopefully wont be a wolrd war.

The latest Red Ross report estimates the number of civilian deaths at a staggering 655,000 since 2003. Even the US budget cannot be strained further see respective docs. After the military spendings the next greatest sum is spent to pay the loans caused by Iraq. Either Clinton or Obama the democrats will move out of Iraq.
Well, and destroying most of the oil production and disrupting its transport out of the gulf, sending oil prices through the roof, depressing the world economy. But who cares if that costs us ten times more than the Iraq war... we will be too busy selling aples and pencils on street corners to worry. And our military will be safely out of harms way...

a. Or you can go bankrupt in 2 yrs time by trying to keep 150 000+ soldiers in Iraq.
b. Or you can leave say 20,000 marines between REAL (not boshniaks or other normal muslims) religious fanatics (aka wahabites and iranian revolutionary guardsmen), and to cover them would still force you to go bankrupt, cuz airforce still costs a hell lot of money so back to pint a.
c. Or ask the international community (incl. China and Russia not to mention EU to solve this problem since their will be also burned if hell brreaks lose above the majority of the Earth's oil reserves.
d. Or let them fight it out and force the whole world to refrain from the usage of Gulf oil. Still dont know whether it would be good or bad for the Bush clan.

Nice set of choices.

Edited for spelling.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by pasternakski »

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normal muslims
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
normal muslims
Entry #113,472,991 in my compendium of oxymorons.

Wonder what #113,472,990 is?
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Paul Vebber »

Even the US budget cannot be strained further see respective docs.

The fact we spent more, longer during the cold war and FAR MORE during Viet Nam disproves this. What eidence is there we ar "bankrupting ourselves"?
a. Or you can go bankrupt in 2 yrs time by trying to keep 150 000+ soldiers in Iraq.


The war is less than 2% of GDP per year. This statement is absurd.
b. Or you can leave say 20,000 marines between REAL (not boshniaks or other normal muslims) religious fanatics (aka wahabites and iranian revolutionary guardsmen), and to cover them would still force you to go bankrupt, cuz airforce still costs a hell lot of money so back to pint a.


Only if you can get the "real fanatics" to wear different uniforms so we know who they are...[8|]
c. Or ask the international community (incl. China and Russia not to mention EU to solve this problem since their will be also burned if hell brreaks lose above the majority of the Earth's oil reserves.

LOL, we asked, they said no. They are betting that we judge that it costs us more in the long run to let the ME go to hell in a handbasket than keeping relative peace until the Iraqi military can take over (3-5 more years). They are right. The "cut and run and let them fight it out" will cost FAR more (some forecast the lost of 50% of ME oil would triple the price of oil and cost our economy over 2 TRILLION a year. 200billion is << than 2 TRILLION so the smart money says stick it out.
d. Or let them fight it out and force the whole world to refrain from the usage of Gulf oil. Still dont know whether it would be good or bad for the Bush clan.

See above. If suply both sides arms, when can probably get the entire Mideast oil shut down to by 75 or 80% that would teach those Chinese and Europeans not to support us. Can you sa 1000$ a barrel oil? [X(]
Nice set of choices.


Its a tough world. The notion that a war will go away becasue you decide not to fight it only works if the other side agrees. There is a name for deciding to stop fighting before the other guy...
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by robpost3 »

Wonder what #113,472,990 is?
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Marauders »

I respect Paul's opinion, but this statement above is no less than an appeal to authority. It is faulty logic in itself.

Unless you are disputing the statistics there is no fallacy of "appeal to authority" if the authority is indeed the "authority" for the statistic sited. Or are you saying that the Statistical Information Analysis Division of DOD is NOT the athoritative source of casualty statistics?

The statistics make no difference in an "appeal to authority" (ad verecundiam) examination of logic.  Doggie's assertion that you must be correct because you are a Navy officer has no logical bearing on the premise.  That does not mean your argument is valid or invalid, as it would be an "ad logicam" fallacy for me to suggest that; it just means that his "appeal to authority" is invalid in itself.  The "appeal to authority" is faulty logic.
Paul, the hindsight card is a Red Herring.
No, the "Why didn't we completely overhaul our military organizatio to do nation building?" is the Red herring.

The force mix is based on organizational decision made decades ago that take at least 5 yrs (the timeframe of the FYDP) to even START to change, meaning that any attempt to change this stuff is typically working on an 8-12 year timeline.

The hindsite card is a red herring as it has no bearing on the question at hand: is there the correct mix of Humvee, uparmored Humvee, Cougar, Stryker, Bradley, and Abrams?  I didn't ask how or why the mix we have is correct, I asked if it is correct.  That is a simple but important distinction, and your comments, along with other comments here, introduces irrelevant material to the issue being discussed.

Of course there will be some hindsight involved in making conclusions.  How else would anyone be able to support any conclusion?  Bringing up that there may be some hindsight involved is therefore a moot point and a red herring, as it is irrelevant material brought up to divert attention from the points being made.
You asked for statistics, I statisfied your criterea, but you dismiss it based on an argument that the absolute number of deaths is not comparable. That is an opinion, but that is all that is. Why would the fact that 3000 more peole died during a four year period of the Cold War than in a four year period of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars be "faulty logic". It is a fact. You may not like it, or believe it is meaningful. But that is a matter of opinion. Why is your opinion superior?

The question to Twotribes was thus: can you site this "stark reality" - that there have been 3200 lethal and 21,800 non-lethal casualties in training accidents in one zone of operation of this size in any 4 year period since the Viet Nam War?

How did you either satisfy or statisfy the criteria?  Since when is the entire global military statistic one command "zone of operation of this size" (PACOM, CENTCOM, ...)?  Not only did you use a dissimilar size database, you didn't even use a database within the requirements of the premise.

The question, as proposed, was a simple question.  It is similar to asking, "Did the Germans have the right force mix when entering into Operation Barbarossa?"   It was my belief that this board had grognards that could add some insight to the question.  Instead, I read a bunch of ad hominem attacks and red herrings.  The logic is abysmal.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Paul Vebber »

The "appeal to authority" is faulty logic.

I thought you were talking abotut my response. Sorry. Claiming that someone is an actual authority is generally considered fallacious if done to add credence to something outside their "range of authority" to say a doctor should be heeded when giving medical advice is not a fallacious appeal to authority. It would be if you used his being a doctor to enhance the credibility of stock advice (since he is a doctor and is rich) THAT is fallacious appeal to authority.
I didn't ask how or why the mix we have is correct, I asked if it is correct.

The problem with the question is it focuses on the single context of Iraq in a vaccum of all the possible other uses Army units could be put to.

You don't deploy a "vehicle mix" you deploy "units". IF your question is "Should the Army have changed its organization to have units available whose equipment is a better match to the conditions in Iraq?" then that is something that can be debated - though the nature of the post war conditions as "unexpected" (despite the edirials of the Editor Generals) meant that a requirement to change the organizatio was not foreseen.

The question "is the vehicle mix correct" is really "Is the Army Unit organization and TO&E correct" for the situation we are facing. There is no subtantive change in "vehicel mix" without a change in Unit organization and TO&E to prvide it.

The introduction of the Stryker was indicative of an inkling, but the FCS organization has not fully taken the lessons on-board yet. The GAO in particular vehomently disagreed that the Stryker was either requied, or suitable if you granted the requirement. Its success in the situation we are facing is indicative of some in the Army "getting it" despite being lampooned by many in the Army, the GAO and a phalanx of Editor Generals.

The question of "is the vehicle mix correct" is moot (or at best acadenic) if there is (or was) no way to change it in any substantive way. (The uparmoring of the HUMVEEs was an immense task and the Stryker was nearly DOA. The scope of teh Truck fleet revamp is indicative of the time and cost of an ancillary task to yours reagarding "the correct mix of Humvee, uparmored Humvee, Cougar, Stryker, Bradley, and Abrams" any significant change in which, requires a change in the service support fleet as well.)
Since when is the entire global military statistic one command "zone of operation of this size" (PACOM, CENTCOM, ...)? Not only did you use a dissimilar size database, you didn't even use a database within the requirements of the premise.


Because the data is not parsed to the "zone of operation" level so your question, with its arbitrary limitations, is unanswerable and arbitraily constrained. The context of the initial statment that our 'cost in blood' of the war in Iraq has been of comparable orders to periods when with few exceptions our military casualties were non-hostile in nature. The chacterization of the NUMBER of casualties as "unacceptable" flys in the face of the NUMBER of casualties we suffered in comparable periods of "peacetime" with a high tempo of operations.

You can put arbitrary limits and parsing on the data, but if you take the NUMBERS of casualties in "real wars" and the number of casualties in "peace time" the number of casualties per year in Iraq is FAR closer to the peacetime norm, than the wartime norm.
The question, as proposed, was a simple question.

Well, unless you have some understanding of the context of the question, like how the force mix might be changed and over what timeframe and at what cost (and legally with what money - NOT supplementals) its as irrelvant as asking if it would be better to have had transporters and phasers.
Did the Germans have the right force mix when entering into Operation Barbarossa?"


The answer such question is invariably "no", since we connote the "right force mix" with "a better one". But the answer is based on information that WE have in hindsight (like the number of T-34s) that the Germans didn't have. given that hinsight we would have taken at least more 88s, if not a Nashorn like SP version in considerable numbers, and ramped up the economy earlier, and had at least MIVhs if not Tigers for the opening invasion.

In hinddsight we can ALWAYS "do better". The more relevant question is "whcih of the decisions regarding the development of the Barbarossa force mix were "mistakes" resulting in a less effective force than they should have had - GIVEN THE REALISTIC CONSTRAINTS ON ITS DEVELOPMENT.

In the absence of those constraints which us would not have plucked our magic twanger and invaded with an all Panther force preceded by Pumas and Lynxs, supported by Wespes and Hummels covered in the air by a dark cloud of JU-87D-3 and Hs 129s?

SO to answer the question "did we have the right vehicle mix" you need to constrain the answer to the set of teh possible, which means you have to understand the constraints on the problem (about which I tried to educate you).
It was my belief that this board had grognards that could add some insight to the question. Instead, I read a bunch of ad hominem attacks and red herrings. The logic is abysmal.


I'm currently working in support of the Navy POM FY10 submission, (yes, the budget 2 and half years hence is being cast in wet cement this year - tat is sort of time delay OCngress demands) so it is not a fallacious appeal to authorty" to claim that I have some idea of what those constraints are".

I would be interested to see where I made any ad hominen attack on you and hope I've demonstrated that far from pelting you fish, I've endeavored to educate you on the constraints surrounding a relevant answer to your question. The very sort of "insight" you desire.

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Doggie »

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
The latest Red Ross report estimates the number of civilian deaths at a staggering 655,000 since 2003.

The Red Cross has said no such thing. You're referring to the Lancet Report, which even the decidely left wing iraqbodycount.org has described as utter nonsense.

Even Iraqbodycount Ignores the simple fact that the number one cause of death for poor innocent Moose-lims is their fellow Moose-lims

The 655,000 figure is absurd, by a factor of at least ten. It's nothing more than politically motivated propaganda.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: Doggie
ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior
The latest Red Ross report estimates the number of civilian deaths at a staggering 655,000 since 2003.

The Red Cross has said no such thing. You're referring to the Lancet Report, which even the decidely left wing iraqbodycount.org has described as utter nonsense.

Even Iraqbodycount Ignores the simple fact that the number one cause of death for poor innocent Moose-lims is their fellow Moose-lims

The 655,000 figure is absurd, by a factor of at least ten. It's nothing more than politically motivated propaganda.

It also begs the question if on average 450 civilians are killed a day, that's 450 each and every day for 4 years in order to get to 650k, why would "dozens killed in suicide bombing" be newsworthy?

Just commenting on the numbers, no politics from me. [:-]
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Ursa MAior »

Could be my wrong with the Lancet report, although this number should not necessarily all come from bombing.

Well those muslims were quiet and peaceful (even if not from their free will) before 2003. Hm?

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Twotribes »

So, your position is that if a population is being murdered raped and restricted, as long as they dont fight back, that means all is right with the world? They are "peaceful" so no need to worry?
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Ursa MAior »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

So, your position is that if a population is being murdered raped and restricted, as long as they dont fight back, that means all is right with the world? They are "peaceful" so no need to worry?

Well almost. [;)] All I am saying is that the situation has not changed a lot since 2003. And THAT really has not worth any life be it a US soldier or a muslim local.

Has it?

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by DuckofTindalos »

The situation in Iraq HAS changed a lot over the past four years. Too bad it's changed for the worse...
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Twotribes »

Ya, sure thing. If one would do more then read the biased mainstream media, one might get the real picture in Iraq.

Is there fighting? Sure is, but now instead of the citizenry being at the mercy of the despot and his corrupt military and police, anyone that wants freedom can actually do something about it. And in fact they are. Except for the , I believe, 3 provinces, it IS generally peaceful in Iraq. And in those areas where the Bathasist and terrorists are fighting they are being turned in and turned on by citizens/tribes/clans, what ever term you prefer, that are TIRED of it. But of course THIS doesnt get play much in the press, well unless it is bad, like if a local group takes some losses for standing up to the terrorists, now that gets press attention, with the dire handwringing and claims that it just doesnt pay to oppose terror.

But I suspect most here arent interested in reality and prefer the fantasy the Main Stream press prints and reports. A lot of the readers here would be embarrassed if the REAL news were printed. You can find it, but that would require that you care.

Of course this begs the question.... What happens if these people get their dream and the US does abandon Iraq to the terrorists, Iran and Syria? I know the Europeans may not be happy, the US gets very little of her oil from that region, BUT Europe.....

After the US abandons another ally, at the insistance of foolish, do me a favor and dont come crying for US help to REInvade and secure the region.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by 11Bravo »

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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Ya, sure thing. If one would do more then read the biased mainstream media, one might get the real picture in Iraq.

Is there fighting? Sure is, but now instead of the citizenry being at the mercy of the despot and his corrupt military and police, anyone that wants freedom can actually do something about it. And in fact they are. Except for the , I believe, 3 provinces, it IS generally peaceful in Iraq. And in those areas where the Bathasist and terrorists are fighting they are being turned in and turned on by citizens/tribes/clans, what ever term you prefer, that are TIRED of it. But of course THIS doesnt get play much in the press, well unless it is bad, like if a local group takes some losses for standing up to the terrorists, now that gets press attention, with the dire handwringing and claims that it just doesnt pay to oppose terror.

But I suspect most here arent interested in reality and prefer the fantasy the Main Stream press prints and reports. A lot of the readers here would be embarrassed if the REAL news were printed. You can find it, but that would require that you care.

Of course this begs the question.... What happens if these people get their dream and the US does abandon Iraq to the terrorists, Iran and Syria? I know the Europeans may not be happy, the US gets very little of her oil from that region, BUT Europe.....

After the US abandons another ally, at the insistance of foolish, do me a favor and dont come crying for US help to REInvade and secure the region.

Once again, you show your complete lack of knowledge about anything except how to operate a computer keyboard. Your opinion is completely irrelevant. Goodbye.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by DuckofTindalos »

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Ya, sure thing. If one would do more then read the biased mainstream media,

Yeah, let's all watch Fox "News" and get our daily injections of Bushite idiocy. Mental midget.
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RE: Iraq Vehicle Force Mix

Post by Twotribes »

Actually the person showing any lack of intelligence would be the one making personal attacks and reciting from ingrained dogma the party line.

Do you even KNOW how many provinces are in Iraq? Can you provide us a list of major fighting anywhere but in 2 cities and smaller towns in the same 3 provinces?

Ohh wait, I bet you think those lancet reports were good science too dont ya?

Do a little math, there are 365 days in a year , the fighting is at 4 years. 4 x 365 is 1460 days, add one for a leap year, we are up to 1461 days. Now take 650,000 and see how many that averages out to a day.

That is pretty close to 445 people a day. So bright boy.... why does the press tell us about 18 or 40 dead a day, when damn there are 445 being killed every day? Where are all these bodies going? Maybe solent green? Maybe wood chippers ARE back in fashion? I know, they are just dumped in the desert and the rats and snakes eat them... ya thats what happens.

As for Fox News, I would bet a lot of money you have never actually watched it, so have no IDEA what your talking about. Just stay with the guys that say EXACTLY what you want to hear.

Like I said, when we abandon Iraq cause of idiots, DO NOT come crying to the United States when your oil dries up and your paying 1000 Euro's a gallon ( ohh wait you dont buy gallons, you buy by the liter)
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