Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

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madorosh
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort
If you have ever played World of Warcraft with a "pick-up group" (a randomly gathered group of people assembled for a particular goal), then you might not use the word "interesting" when talking about the "personalities in your unit." [;)] That basically keeps people coming back, but it is the "terrain you interact with" that initially draws people in.

What you both seem to be depicting is a game that utilizes the "clan" format seen in games like Guild Wars or the old Mechwarrior clans. Unfortunately, this style of game does not appeal to everyone (I hate guilds in games) and unless you have the game randomly assign the player to the same guild/clan/unit, each time they log in, then you are not going to get that group dynamic out of the box. Besides, all of these concepts are VERY old concepts for wargaming (gaming clans have been in existence since very early days) and thus represent the past and present of wargaming, as well as the future. I simply do not see how a persistent world wargame would work, random map generation for each map is no different than internet, LAN, or hot-seat games already being played. Making it a real time unit/squad based game turns it into an FPS, like the Battlefield series, and online WEGO is already being done. RTS tend to be more casual than tactical, so I can't see that working either.

The best idea I have seen in a long time is Stardock's Society, but this seems a long way off from actually being done. Still, it is more RTS than tactical wargaming.

You're talking about a completely different genre of game than what is being discussed here. I'm simply referring to the act of playing something like Panzer Command or Combat Mission online with multiple players per side, in a campaign-type environment in which individual scenarios are linked within the framework of an overall geographic locality. Each battle would have an effect on the next, but the environment isn't a "real time" environment - it doesn't persist when there are no players there. You play a scenario to completion, and the results are then calculated on the "world", after which the next phase is started. Campaigns would have set goals and objectives, all terrain would be knowable to both groups, and resource allocation would be up to players designated as senior commanders. This stuff is already happening - manually - in meta campaigns by enthusiasts. Most such campaigns fail to develop due to internal conflicts or logistical burdens in just keeping the system going and trying to interface the info in the system with the manual campaign system.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by ravinhood »

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

This is about as silly a thread as "what's your favourite colour?" It lacks focus. [:'(]


I agree, what we are seeing now is nothing more than the war these two carried on over at Battlefront brought now to Matrixgames. I have to laugh at them both as they attempt to actually portray themselves as the all time know it alls of the entire wargaming community and what we all have to look forward to in the future of wargaming. lol It's like two 8 year olds fighting in the sandbox over the sand. hahahaha
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

This is about as silly a thread as "what's your favourite colour?" It lacks focus. [:'(]


I agree, what we are seeing now is nothing more than the war these two carried on over at Battlefront brought now to Matrixgames. I have to laugh at them both as they attempt to actually portray themselves as the all time know it alls of the entire wargaming community and what we all have to look forward to in the future of wargaming. lol It's like two 8 year olds fighting in the sandbox over the sand. hahahaha

ravinhood, I started a new thread on this topic because I find it interesting. If you have something intelligent to contribute to the discussion, please do so. Posting falsehoods and abusive content - and then accusing others of immaturity - is not constructively furthering the conversation.

Do you have an opinion on the topic?
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by cdbeck »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
It's like two 8 year olds fighting in the sandbox over the sand. hahahaha

Ironically enough, that seems to be a perfect depiction of Patton and Rommel.

to the above. It isn't a different genre. Wargaming isn't really even a "genre" per se as it encompasses RPG, RTS, and FPS. And as you aptly put forward in the above, all that stuff has been done (as I said with the "clans") both in some games and manually. Stardocks Gal Civ II has a meta-universe that even compares the empire sizes of solo play. Some flight sims did this, giving different missions depending on performance, but this was all solo play.

Basically, what you are arguing for is a huge meta-database that tracks performance of multiplayer matches. How long does this last? Does it track solo play too? See, that isn't an MMOG (a word tossed around liberally above), that is a clan network. And its is all old news.

I am beginning to agree, this discussion is starting to lack focus (I'm not sure what is being argued anymore, if I ever was). I probably should stop talking, as I think I am making it lose focus faster... [:'(]

SoM
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(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

I am beginning to agree, this discussion is starting to lack focus (I'm not sure what is being argued anymore, if I ever was). I probably should stop talking, as I think I am making it lose focus faster... [:'(]

SoM

I don't think lack of focus is so much the problem as your unfamiliarity with wargaming in general. Have you ever played Combat Mission, Panzer Command or Close Combat? You keep citing science fiction and fantasy games as an example of what I'm talking about, despite the fact that it isn't what I'm talking about, and claiming my comments lack focus...
Ironically enough, that seems to be a perfect depiction of Patton and Rommel.

Patton and Rommel never faced each other, so I'm not sure how it would be a "perfect depiction"?
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by ravinhood »

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

This is about as silly a thread as "what's your favourite colour?" It lacks focus. [:'(]


I agree, what we are seeing now is nothing more than the war these two carried on over at Battlefront brought now to Matrixgames. I have to laugh at them both as they attempt to actually portray themselves as the all time know it alls of the entire wargaming community and what we all have to look forward to in the future of wargaming. lol It's like two 8 year olds fighting in the sandbox over the sand. hahahaha

ravinhood, I started a new thread on this topic because I find it interesting. If you have something intelligent to contribute to the discussion, please do so. Posting falsehoods and abusive content - and then accusing others of immaturity - is not constructively furthering the conversation.

Do you have an opinion on the topic?

Lol not for you Dorosh because I know your style, you don't give a damn about the topic you are just wanting to war with Yousername just as you did over at Battlefront. Don't try to act coy with me I've seen your trolling over at Battlefront and you continue it here just like you just took a stab at KG Erwin in the other thread. But, here you can't hide behind Steve like you could at Battlefront.
WE/I WANT 1:1 or something even 1:2 death animations in the KOIOS PANZER COMMAND SERIES don't forget Erik! ;) and Floating Paratroopers We grew up with Minor, Marginal and Decisive victories why rock the boat with Marginal, Decisive and Legendary?


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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by Prince of Eckmühl »

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

I am beginning to agree, this discussion is starting to lack focus (I'm not sure what is being argued anymore, if I ever was). I probably should stop talking, as I think I am making it lose focus faster... [:'(]

SoM

Focus is a problem for a couple of reasons.

First, in some cases, folks are misusing terminology.

I think that's why Dorosh tried to provide a structure for the discussion with some of his descriptors.

Second, at least one of the players rewrites his script with each post, as his MO, lol, the Latin one, that is.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)
Government is the opiate of the masses.
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madorosh
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lol not for you Dorosh because I know your style, you don't give a damn about the topic you are just wanting to war with Yousername just as you did over at Battlefront. Don't try to act coy with me I've seen your trolling over at Battlefront and you continue it here just like you just took a stab at KG Erwin in the other thread. But, here you can't hide behind Steve like you could at Battlefront.

I really have no idea what your problem is, ravinhood, but please stop poisoning what is a pretty good discussion. I never "warred" with anyone at battlefront, and whatever Lewis did or didn't do there is irrelevant. I wish you would stop bringing up the past here and just judge conversations one at a time. I don't care what he or you or anyone did there or in some other thread. If you're incapable of contributing to the discussion here, then my suggestion is to please go and participate in a conversation you actually know something about instead of trying to derail this one with gossip and innuendo.

Now, I'll ask again, do you have something constructive to add to this topic of conversation, or don't you? I'd be very interested in your opinion on the matter at hand.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by Yoozername »

To be honest, I have no clue what Dorosh is talking about.  And he has a track record.  But I am encouraged that TOW is....
 
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=63;t=001537;p=1
 
Multiplayer stability is being improved now. 8-player engagements were successfully tested, even with clients with low quality internet connection. Connecting over Internet should be more easy and stable. The MP game system in TOW is completely different from singleplayer, so implementing unit selection for battle just like in single missions (obvious decision) is in fact quite complex task demanding rewriting of entire MP system (in single missions unit selection is limited by designer while in MP you may choose any unit in the game, there is many other aspects too). All available units in mission must be stated in mission file, making possibility of choosing any unit in the game for a given battle a tricky task. Because of this, player will probably have a choice of 20+, maybe more, army compositions, for example USA tank platoon ’44 or Russian infantry ’42, etc., which you and your opponent will choose. Loading times of MP missions are sped up considerably (in test 8-player battle all players with different configurations loaded and began to play within 6 minutes, while previously 2-player battle loading could took even 10 minutes). Gamemodes (assault, defence, more complex tasks) are dependant on MP mission designer. These improvements will be in nearest MP patch in September. More fundamental changes in MP structure will be possible only in stand-alone addon.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

To be honest, I have no clue what Dorosh is talking about. And he has a track record.

I'm talking about discussing the topic at hand and not what happens on some other forum, what has happened in the past, or anything else irrelevant to this topic.

If I'm not clear in my comments, maybe you need to be engaging us in conversation instead of just snapping off one-liners. Your claim not to know what the discussion is about is at odds with the fact you're answering practically post-for-post.

So which of my points are unclear to you? I'll be happy to go over it in more detail if that will help you contribute in a constructive manner.

I've asked you once before what you mean by your comments regarding "track record" are in reference to. I don't think they're germaine to this thread or even this forum to be honest, but I'm not a mind reader either. My track record at battlefront, if that is what you're referring to, is as a constructive poster.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ulti ... p=1#000000

This post received positive attention recently, and discussed some issues pertaining to wargaming's direction.

This one as well.

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ulti ... p=1#000000
What a great post! Between this and "Left Turn into the Uncanny Valley", Dorosh is doing some heavy lifting in terms of bringing thoughtful, unique, and interesting discussions to the board.

Is this what you mean by track record?


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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by dinsdale »

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

I disagree that people need to 'train' to fight a battle if each person is controlling a company. Whoever 'hosts' the game could assign an overall plan. Objectives, timetables, what have you.
I used to play Rogue Spear a bit with friends, and sometimes with random people on a server. The two experiences are completely different, and to believe that a game requiring combined arms tactics could be anything other than frustrating unless played with people who have developed team work is beyond wishful thinking.

Personally, the idea of PC games for me is to have an opponent who is ready at my command. Otherwise, boardgames offer a better social interaction and ease of play.
I find the reactionary response interesting.
You seem to have some sort of history with Dorosh, there's no need to attempt to create similar feuds with everyone who might disagree with you.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by TheHellPatrol »

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

Now, I'll ask again, do you have something constructive to add to this topic of conversation, or don't you? I'd be very interested in your opinion on the matter at hand.
After seeing your first post (for me) under the topic " Best board-game?" i envisioned a ponticficating Troll due to your comments about "focus". Who are you to teach others about their post content?, you just came off as arogant and self-inflated and frankly your posts of superfluous fluff are neither interesting nor productive. Your only purpose seems to be inciting arguments of which apparently your reputation has forewarned people here at the Matrix forums. Ergo i offer something constructive: don't expect to be taken seriously[8|].
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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madorosh
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

I used to play Rogue Spear a bit with friends, and sometimes with random people on a server. The two experiences are completely different, and to believe that a game requiring combined arms tactics could be anything other than frustrating unless played with people who have developed team work is beyond wishful thinking.

Personally, the idea of PC games for me is to have an opponent who is ready at my command. Otherwise, boardgames offer a better social interaction and ease of play.

Exactly; well stated. I'd also venture to say you represent the majority of PC gamers, both in your outlook on multi player, and on the role of solo play.

Personally, I'd like to see more direct board game translations to the computer for solo play - Sniper, Ambush!, etc., with a programmed AI player.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol
]After seeing your first post (for me) under the topic " Best board-game?" i envisioned a ponticficating Troll due to your comments about "focus". Who are you to teach others about their post content?, you just came off as arogant and self-inflated and frankly your posts of superfluous fluff are neither interesting nor productive. Your only purpose seems to be inciting arguments of which apparently your reputation has forewarned people here at the Matrix forums. Ergo i offer something constructive: don't expect to be taken seriously[8|].

It's unfortunate that you didn't see the value in the points I raised in that thread; if your feelings were hurt I certainly apologize. I don't see the point in chasing me throughout the forum to derail other threads. You're entitled to your opinion, but this thread isn't about me, it's about the subject of multi-player tactical games. If you have an opinion on that topic, it would be of great interest - if you're capable of looking beyond your own private grudges and discussing things dispassionately.

You may want to review what the purpose of a discussion forum is as well. Constructive discussion usually doesn't follow from "post your favourite colour" types of polls. At the very least, they're rarely interesting to me and I don't apologize for not taking them seriously. For what it is worth, there were several people in the thread you reference that took no offence to my comments and in fact contributed some very interesting comments. I'm hoping the same might happen in this thread; so far there has been much good food for thought, whenever we have managed to actually stay on topic.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by Yoozername »

Yeah that TOW looks like it could be in the future and could allow several players to each command companies.  That seems on topic given the silly name for this thread.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Yeah that TOW looks like it could be in the future and could allow several players to each command companies. That seems on topic given the silly name for this thread.

Sounds to me like you're reading the information wrong. I see reference to players commanding sub-units within the same company - not "commanding companies". So you're making basic assumptions about game scale that simply aren't true, based on the information you just presented us.

There is a big difference between a system where many players command a company's worth of units each - and a system where one company's worth of units are divided up between several players. Seems to me like the TOW system is the latter - which is not company command at all, but platoon command. Why doesn't the reference you cite actually mention "company command"?
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by Yoozername »

So this thread is about what isn't going to be made in the future?  Its about how dorosh defines things from the past, the present and what will be and not be in the future?  jeesh.  And I had thought that dorosh had run out of topics of conversation.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by madorosh »

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

So this thread is about what isn't going to be made in the future? Its about how dorosh defines things from the past, the present and what will be and not be in the future? jeesh. And I had thought that dorosh had run out of topics of conversation.

You just quoted the Theatre of War forum and erroneously attempted to use it as an example of a multi-player real time company command game, but Theatre of War is clearly nothing of the sort. I keep asking you very direct questions related directly to the topic, but your confusion with matters of definition and game scale seem to make it hard to keep a conversation going. I also note that Theatre of War has individual soldiers as units, so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning it as an example of multi-player game where players can command companies?

I'll restate my basic premise for the thread. You had suggested that the "future of wargaming" would be in multi-multi player company command wargames in real time. I've stated several times now why I feel this not to be the case. You just posted TOW as an example, I suppose, of how the "future of wargaming" will be in multi-multi player company command - but TOW's multi-player doesn't seem to apply to any of the kinds of things you proposed as being the "future" of wargaming. In fact, as has been discussed by several people now in this thread, what you suggest seems unlikely and unwieldy.

So what was the quote about TOW intended to illustrate then? Because if the future of wargaming is a model where infantry can't enter buildings, or company commanders issue soldiers one man at a time, I don't think that's a vision many people will buy into. TOW multi-player looks promising for those wanting to divide up command of a company of men, but there would need to be some sort of unit-based interface, the way OFP gave you the ability to command entire squads in MP mode.
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by Yoozername »

Real Time Iranian Crab People is not the future of Wargaming
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RE: Real Time Company Command is not the future of wargaming

Post by cdbeck »

Geez... I meant Montgomery and Rommel I guess, but to be fair, both Patton and Rommel were in the North African campaign during some of the same years.

And yes, don't be arrogant and assume that I have not played Combat Mission or Close Combat, both of which I have played. I was agreeing with you remember... [8|]

The reason I bring up fantasy or sci-fi games (which ARE wargames, regardless of what you might argue) is that this is where the ideas you posited have already been implemented. Look at Massive Assault Network (a strategic level, turned based, online, sci-fi wargame). It incorporates some of what you said needed to apply to company level games. My problem with your main argument, other than your pretentious tone, is that you want to argue about "the future of wargames" in general (as your topic says) then you pigeon-hole discussion into one tiny game design like Close Combat or Combat Mission. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

My main problem with all of this discussion is how logically erroneous it is. The future of wargames doesn't lie in one direction (as you put in Real Time Company Command). That is ONE path wargames might take, but lots of wargamers want grand strategy games, or divisional level games, or theater-wide games. Where the heck did you get that your "future of wargames" was ONLY going to apply to one type and one time-period (which apparently seems to be WWII)? MMOG was mentioned above, and this brought me to talk about Sci-Fi fantasy games because they are the ONLY successful genre's to come out of this type of game (with the slightly spurious exception of Battlefield 1942). If a wargame is to come out in that field, then it will have to follow the examples of Sci-fi and Fantasy games.

And I would venture to say that your comment to Dinsdale is incorrect, his outlook on multiplay is not that of the majority of PC gamers out there. WoW is currently the best selling and most played game, followed by games like Lineage and The Sims. All of these games, except the Sims, provide players with a a world to fight against and other players to compete or cooperate with. What you really need is a wargame that lets players fight each other, fight some sort of persistent world (lets say an Alien Invasion) in which their success or failure in this battle is ranked and compared with other gamers, and where they can cooperate with one another, allying their kingdoms and fighting other players or the AI driven aliens invasion. This would be a wargame that follows the majority of PC gamers preference to multiplay (and follows WoW MMORPG model). Most gamers out there do not substitute PC games for boardgames when they lack human opponents simply because most PC gamers out there do not play boardgames (a niche market to rival wargaming in size).

Pshaw... further you should define what a "wargame" is before you tell me not to mention certain genres or types of games. Because that is a HUGE category... just look at the different types of games Matrix offers and get back to me.

SoM
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(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade
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