Cease fire possible?

[MarkShot]

I am a new and casual customer of Harpoon. I say that in the general sense in which I meant it, since I may well play HCCE when it comes out. I barely can win a scenario ... let alone wade through understanding the vast complex history of the game and it is databases.

What is someone like me supposed to do who wants to simply learn a little more about naval combat and have some fun?

Where can I safefly post? Who can I safely interact with? What add-ons can I safely use? Such that I, myself, do not become part of this debate, step on people's toes, and infringe on the intellectual property rights and good will of other Harpoon players?

You see my problem and the problem of others? This does nothing to further my interest in the game and help me get past its sizeable learning curve. I am sure that others too have the same problem. I am not a bad or insensitive person, but, at the same time, I have enough of petty political struggles in my professional life. Games are just a matter of recreation to me ... why would I want to fill my recreational time such that it looks like my work time?

Whatever the underlying issues are, you folks are furthering your personal interests at the detriment of the larger interests of the business growth of developer/publisher and the formation and cohesion of the community.

I know I probably shouldn't have written this, since sometimes I am speak too frankly first thing on Monday mornings. This is probably going to get me my own personal sock burned in effigy. But I guess, there are other naval communities/games where people can play games and have a good time.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: Taitennek

[center][/center][center] [/center][left]Who's next????[/left]

I'm not involved in this, please remove the HUD3 reference.

I have nothing to do with this BS and really don't even want to be associated by implication.

I have a couple of questions to ponder. When the DB2K guys take information from a "published source" and place it in their DB is that copying? Basing your DB on the ODB database and replacing/editing the units, is that copying? Wasting the community's time on this and not helping the game move forward is just plain pigheadedness. Somebody from DB2K send me a list of what's supposedly been copied. I have some RE tools that should get to the bottom of this and end it once and for all.

Don Gilman has NEVER explicitly stated who copied what from whom. I hope he wasn't talking about the PDB and the HUD, the DB2K guys would look kind of funny if that was the case now wouldn't they????????

Cheers

Darren

[Flankerk]

I don't see this is a waste of the community's time. The communitys time has been wasted by others ripping off their work, and is has had a massively detrimental effect. If that can be resolved I'm all the happier. For the record I have indicated that I believe some of my work has been copied and have posted about it previously.
 
I don't see the need for you to look further into the copying Darren, as you have stated that you are aware of entries in the players database that were taken from DB2000, however you also indicated that these were exceeded by those entries taken from HUD II without your permission.
 
 

[Bungle]

 
(start serious face)
 
Hey Mark
 
I figure it this way MarkShot, let the tanties get thrown in this thread, dummies bouncing of the floor etcetera. Frankly I dont have any affiliation with any of these people, and Im sure if a few individuals could "let go" and others not be so ready to bite they could achieve just about anything with ANW. However the evidence left in the various threads of this forum do provide the casual researcher with some fairly clear facts, the record (or vinyl, as Im reliably informed is the contemporary term) is stuck in a scratch, keeps playing the same line, needs a bit of a bump to "get over it" and "move on" [;)]
 
Let all the evils that lurk in the mud leach out here, and then that leaves the rest of the forum for discussion.
 
All can argue each other to a standstill.  Over what, who really knows....?   Principle maybe .....?  Tell you wot Im amazed to see it's been going on since 2004 or 2002 (quoted somewhere in the thread)  I mean to say, that is just unbelievable, and they say dogs have bone envy!
 
Oh well, gives everyone a chance to act and be treated in a childish manner, excercise the old funny bone.  The strange thing is nothing has been directly aimed at any particular individual or been of a personal nature, yet some have attempted to take it personally. Steadfastly wanting to go over the same old arguments (post #15 being point in fact for all the above) and then they get the hump and sulk because no one is going to respond. Of course this isnt debate its sillyness, goonish ol tosh but if it bores people into giving up their stale old arguments all the better for the forum.
 
Yes Mark it is borderline purile [:D] but might as well fight fire with fire or it is never going to go away, as you can evidence for yourself.  Might as well have a larf while your doing it.
 
(serious face off)
 
 
 

[Dimitris]

That's a fair question, Mark.

In terms of general queries about the game and air/naval warfare, I think you would be well covered by any of the existing community or company forums. This includes hangouts which I normally don't frequent due to a number of differences with their operators, as well as the "official" forums here. There is no community-wide struggle about which places are "verboten" and which are kosher (yet anyway) so you're pretty safe on that score.

Now, for add-ons like DBs and scens.... as you've already witnessed first-hand it's a touchy subject as everyone has an opinion about it. This is where the PC thing is to say "try everything and see what suits you best" so I'll best leave it at that. <non-PC remark> However, you'll be pleased to find that the vast majority of the community DBs do not have a shamed ancestry so you can enjoy their benefits with a clear conscience. </non-PC remark>. Whichever DB(s) you choose to browse & try out you'll find plenty of support from their creators & scen authors, a staple of the community for years now.

I have enough of petty political struggles in my professional life. Games are just a matter of recreation to me ... why would I want to fill my recreational time such that it looks like my work time?

Spot on. I don't think anyone without an agenda wishes this environment.

Whatever the underlying issues are, you folks are furthering your personal interests at the detriment of the larger interests of the business growth of developer/publisher and the formation and cohesion of the community.

That's both right and wrong. Right because, well, I don't think anyone can argue that such arguments are painting a positive image either for individual persons or the community at large. And wrong because this is akin to describing a factory worker strike as damaging to the company & national economy: who is to judge whether the pursued long-term benefits are worth (or not) the temporary disruption? It greatly depends on who you ask.

It is noble and fair to ask of people that they put the collective good above their personal differences, beliefs and goals. Actually doing that is a bit more problematic.

[BurntFingers]

ORIGINAL: Bucks



I have a couple of questions to ponder. When the DB2K guys take information from a "published source" and place it in their DB is that copying?

Numbers cannot be copyrighted or trademarked. HOWEVER, the radar/visual/thermal sigs and sensor ratings all combine together to make a model.

This model IS covered by Intellectual Property legislation.

So, putting in a units height, width, length, displacement from a book isn't in breach of any law. What is a breach is ripping off all the values for the sensors and the sensor models.

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Basing your DB on the ODB database and replacing/editing the units, is that copying?

Technically yes. If you use a model WITHOUT PERMISSION then it is a breach of the law.

The issue here isn't the copying. Which is proven. Anyone who has taken a DB editor to both DB2K and PDB can see for themselves.

It's the lack of permission given. That's the issue. Without permission a new sensor/visibility models should have been created by Herman Hum. He couldn't be bothered as he didn't think it was important.

I regret ignorance of the law is not an excuse and the guy is liable. The fact that he is dirt poor (like me, actually) just means that compensation will not be forthcoming. It doesn't mean he isn't liable.

I have pointed these out to VCDH and apparently the email is with Don Gilman's lawyer. AGSI are waiting for legal counsel before commenting or commiting themselves.

ORIGINAL: Bucks
Don Gilman has NEVER explicitly stated who copied what from whom.

See above. These are all just my opinions of the facts.

[FransKoenz]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

ORIGINAL: Taitennek

[center][/center][center] [/center][left]Who's next????[/left]

I'm not involved in this, please remove the HUD3 reference.

I have nothing to do with this BS and really don't even want to be associated by implication.

Your wish is my command[;)]

I have a couple of questions to ponder. When the DB2K guys take information from a "published source" and place it in their DB is that copying? Basing your DB on the ODB database and replacing/editing the units, is that copying? Wasting the community's time on this and not helping the game move forward is just plain pigheadedness. Somebody from DB2K send me a list of what's supposedly been copied. I have some RE tools that should get to the bottom of this and end it once and for all.

Don Gilman has NEVER explicitly stated who copied what from whom. I hope he wasn't talking about the PDB and the HUD, the DB2K guys would look kind of funny if that was the case now wouldn't they????????

A couple of months ago, the issue 'plagiarism & accusations about copying a DB' was resaon enough for banning persons from this forum. I hope that moderation-dept. of this forum still remember this.
Isn't it time for some action by the Moderators? I think so!

Cheers,
Frans Koenz.

[Bungle]

Wacko the frogies, legal counsel even............[X(]
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I cant wait to see the expression on Barnies&nbsp;face when&nbsp;he reads out the charges.............. that'll be priceless!
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As for m'luddy Judge Judy&nbsp;&nbsp; I wonder wot she'll be thinking? I'd pay more'n a penny for her thoughts!
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Oooer .......do you think she has ever had to pass judgement on a sock puppet before?&nbsp; [:-]&nbsp; Your a very very naughty puppet.....&nbsp;&nbsp;
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[cuthbo2001]

Mark, arguments can get fierce here but be assured the availability of help from everyone in the community is not diminished by it.

[Dimitris]

Alright, if anyone has a realistic suggestion for resolving this problem I would like to hear it.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

ORIGINAL: TonyE
That statement of mine stands (which you've kindly mis-stated). I've seen no proof that PDB copied DB2k.

1. Well, apart from the mountains of evidence presented by HHQ members and the fact that the act was verified by a separate AGSI investigation and even publicly confirmed by Don G.....apart from all that yeah, no proof.

2. You see Tony, there's a big part of the problem right there.... as Herman's patron, you have in your hands the power to help end this thing even by tomorrow, simply by denying shelter & support to the person that has been proven to be the culprit of the singular act that has generated this controversy. And you won't do it no matter what, because maintaining this atmosphere suits your agenda just fine. (Making the H3 community look bad and thus making HC look good in comparison, plus sticking it to the HHQ because you lost the H3-or-HC argument back in 2002).

3. Then you come into threads like this and shed crocodile tears over a situation that you have directly helped create and maintain.

4. As so often happens, it's the self-proclaimed peacemakers that you really have to watch out for.

5. Anyone who's been in this community before 2004 remembers how different things were before the appearance of Herman on the scene and his embrace by certain individuals who now wonder publicly aloud about the situation. This memory alone is sufficient to smother the "They've been at it for ever!" argument.

6. Cut out the cancer that infected the community and then we can earnestly talk about moving forward. Which we all want to do.

I don't appreciate the character attacks, please stop.

I've numbered your paragraphs and hope not to answer these same questions any more times than I already have.

1. Mountains of evidence that prove nothing. Just like Herman's evidence proves nothing. I was asked for my analysis during the AGSI investigation and gave it freely (I could not prove plagiarism, nor innocence, my analysis was inconclusive). As for any public disclosure by AGSI, we've been thru this before, haven't seen it and I have not been asked by AGSI to remove any materials. My statement stands...

2. Many people have the power to end it, Ragnar and HHQ people have even more power than me to end it. You know my position, it is plainly stated over and over and over again. If I turned off the PDB server and kicked PDB off of HarpDB it wouldn't solve a thing, you know that so why try to buffalo these people into thinking that. See #5

2. I did argue for continuation of HC, which did not happen (but heh, now it has). Outside of that I did not lose as I never pushed for HC to be the only computer Harpoon product. HC will be directly supporting H3/ANW with money, if I hated H3, I wouldn't play it or work on it, I wouldn't run the servers, and I wouldn't work on HC since HC funds H3, HC is not funded how H3 is funded, Matrix takes their cut, AGSI may or may not pass on a small royalty to myself and others, the rest funds H3.

3. No tears on this thread, except for this post asking to stop the unfounded character attacks.

4. I'm not even going to go there. [:-]

5. Yes, before Herman there was Ragnar, before Ragnar there were others. None of this started with Herman, none of it will end with Herman (wasn't that part of what I wrote in my first post on this thread, amazing...). I've watched the battles longer than most (1992 - 2007, not the longest of anyone, but still pretty long).

6. You don't honestly think all of the cancer could be removed do you? It just isn't possible I'm all for moving forward though.

If you want me out of this game, just keep it up, you're doing a good job of removing any of my will to support these games.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

What is someone like me supposed to do who wants to simply learn a little more about naval combat and have some fun?

Where can I safefly post? Who can I safely interact with? What add-ons can I safely use? Such that I, myself, do not become part of this debate, step on people's toes, and infringe on the intellectual property rights and good will of other Harpoon players?

Just my opinion but there are two places you can post

1. HHQ knows H3 like nobody else. Their forum is moderated so you won't see arguments like this thread there.

2. HarpGamer, also a moderated to prevent threads like this one making any headway.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]